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Topic: Official Game 3 Thread: Miami (OH)
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UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 10:09 AM
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Victory wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
The MAC previously said otherwise. From The Blade:

If two teams have the same number of losses, but different win totals, the head-to-head results between those two teams would take precedent. After that, the normal tiebreaker process would begin.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/16/2020 12:04 PM
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rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
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Posted: 11/16/2020 12:32 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
cc-cat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 2:06 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
Which can be taught - elite (HS and college) soccer players are quite skilled at striking the ball to get lift, curve, etc. Doesn't mean you can simply pluck one off the pitch, but the skills can be translated. Certainly worth exploring if our current challenges continue. My neighbor's son was recruited from the HS soccer team to kick and punt and turned into a quality starter in a matter of weeks.
Last Edited: 11/16/2020 2:09:37 PM by cc-cat
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 2:19 PM
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cc-cat wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
Which can be taught - elite (HS and college) soccer players are quite skilled at striking the ball to get lift, curve, etc. Doesn't mean you can simply pluck one off the pitch, but the skills can be translated. Certainly worth exploring if our current challenges continue. My neighbor's son was recruited from the HS soccer team to kick and punt and turned into a quality starter in a matter of weeks.
Wow!?!? I had no idea you could teach people skills! Thank you for the enlightenment to that information.
cc-cat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 2:24 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Wow!?!? I had no idea you could teach people skills! Thank you for the enlightenment to that information.
no problem - especially now that we know the ball (at a minimum) needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked the specialty team coach has some metrics he can work with.
rpbobcat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 2:44 PM
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cc-cat wrote:expand_more
My neighbor's son was recruited from the HS soccer team to kick and punt and turned into a quality starter in a matter of weeks.
That's interesting.
Like I posted, most of the guys I played soccer with, could bang a 50 yard field goal.

I tried punting a few times, could never get the mechanics of it.
O.U.s punter at the time tried to show me how to do it.
But, to no avail.

Our goalie could boom a soccer ball.
But even he couldn't do much, when it came to punting a football.
OhioBobcat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 8:53 PM
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Victory wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
This very, very likely won't be the only MAC game rescheduled. Ohio is still in great shape. While I completely expected Ohio to beat Miami, it could have been viewed as a tossup game by a lot of people. It wasn't like it was Akron or BG, which are both sure wins.
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Posted: 11/16/2020 8:57 PM
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Victory wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
There's a high chances there's going to be other cancelled games. And there's also the fact that Peden Stadium has been a house of horror for Buffalo as well. Remember what happened two years ago when they came roaring into Athens just outside of the Top-25. Ohio destroyed UB. They had no answers with all those good players.
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Posted: 11/16/2020 9:04 PM
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UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
The MAC previously said otherwise. From The Blade:

If two teams have the same number of losses, but different win totals, the head-to-head results between those two teams would take precedent. After that, the normal tiebreaker process would begin.
I found that same info. For some reason I didn't remember it stating that when I first read this weeks ago.
OhioBobcat
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Posted: 11/16/2020 9:34 PM
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UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
The MAC previously said otherwise. From The Blade:

If two teams have the same number of losses, but different win totals, the head-to-head results between those two teams would take precedent. After that, the normal tiebreaker process would begin.
Although I also came across this as well:

When it comes to determining rankings, if teams have played a different number of games, win percentage will take precedent. If winning percentage is the same (for example a 5-0 and 4-0 team), standings would be determined by a traditional tie breaker format ... head to head result would take precedent, and then looking at the next highest ranking teams and how each team did against them.

So these two examples don't exactly mesh. I'll keep looking for something official.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 11/17/2020 8:41 AM
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OhioBobcat wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
The MAC previously said otherwise. From The Blade:

If two teams have the same number of losses, but different win totals, the head-to-head results between those two teams would take precedent. After that, the normal tiebreaker process would begin.
Although I also came across this as well:

When it comes to determining rankings, if teams have played a different number of games, win percentage will take precedent. If winning percentage is the same (for example a 5-0 and 4-0 team), standings would be determined by a traditional tie breaker format ... head to head result would take precedent, and then looking at the next highest ranking teams and how each team did against them.

So these two examples don't exactly mesh. I'll keep looking for something official.
So maybe that only applies basically for undefeated teams? That's probably the only time they'd have the same winning percentage but a different number of games (unless you had a .500 division leader). In which case they would not have played head to head. It's not especially clear what they mean.
OhioBobcat
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Posted: 11/17/2020 9:15 AM
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UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I assume that winning percentage trumps head to head since 5-1 and 4-1 are not actually tied. A win at Buffalo alone then would not get it done.
The MAC previously said otherwise. From The Blade:

If two teams have the same number of losses, but different win totals, the head-to-head results between those two teams would take precedent. After that, the normal tiebreaker process would begin.
Although I also came across this as well:

When it comes to determining rankings, if teams have played a different number of games, win percentage will take precedent. If winning percentage is the same (for example a 5-0 and 4-0 team), standings would be determined by a traditional tie breaker format ... head to head result would take precedent, and then looking at the next highest ranking teams and how each team did against them.

So these two examples don't exactly mesh. I'll keep looking for something official.
So maybe that only applies basically for undefeated teams? That's probably the only time they'd have the same winning percentage but a different number of games (unless you had a .500 division leader). In which case they would not have played head to head. It's not especially clear what they mean.
You could be right. I know I read the tiebreaker criteria when the schedules were released, I just can’t seem to find it now when looking for the official criteria. I don’t recall where I came across it.
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Posted: 11/17/2020 9:22 AM
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cc-cat wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
Which can be taught - elite (HS and college) soccer players are quite skilled at striking the ball to get lift, curve, etc. Doesn't mean you can simply pluck one off the pitch, but the skills can be translated. Certainly worth exploring if our current challenges continue. My neighbor's son was recruited from the HS soccer team to kick and punt and turned into a quality starter in a matter of weeks.
Something to keep in mind in relation to placekicking, in some states high school kickers are allowed to use a tee when attempting field goals and extra points. They still have a holder but the ball is placed on a tee after receiving the snap. It’s much different kicking a FG off the ground like you do in college than with a tee. This is why you sometimes see kickers who were money in high school struggle in college. The first thing I try and find out was did they kick off a tee in high school.
Ohio69
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Posted: 11/17/2020 1:01 PM
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https://watchstadium.com/collegekickers-when-they-make-mi... /

They analyzed all 1,329 field goal attempts that were taken in 2018-9 season by P5 plus Notre Dame. At 50 yards the field goal percentage was 42.8%.
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Posted: 11/17/2020 5:59 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
What about punts?

An embarrassing moment for me came in a JV game (luckily a sparse Saturday morning crowd with few family members in attendance) many years ago when I was the blocking back for our punter. All I remember was hearing the football hitting the punter's foot and less than 1 second later feeling it hit my rear end. I blamed the punter. He blamed me.
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Posted: 11/17/2020 6:33 PM
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As good as Zervos was, he missed a 29 FG and we gave up a safety in 2018. Lost by 2 pts.
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Posted: 11/17/2020 6:42 PM
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bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
What about punts?

An embarrassing moment for me came in a JV game (luckily a sparse Saturday morning crowd with few family members in attendance) many years ago when I was the blocking back for our punter. All I remember was hearing the football hitting the punter's foot and less than 1 second later feeling it hit my rear end. I blamed the punter. He blamed me.
It was your massive behind.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/18/2020 12:07 AM
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OhioBobcat wrote:expand_more
When I played soccer at O.U.,sometimes,after practice,we'd try our luck at kicking field goals.

Most of us could hit consistently from around 50 yards.

But,that was without pads,or 11 guys running full speed at you.
I bet club soccer has some kids who could hit *around* 50. The points you mentioned about the differences is true. I also found I lose some range when I have to account for kicking the ball up and over lineman. The longest kicks I ever made messing around were all line drives that probably would’ve been blocked in a game.
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
Which can be taught - elite (HS and college) soccer players are quite skilled at striking the ball to get lift, curve, etc. Doesn't mean you can simply pluck one off the pitch, but the skills can be translated. Certainly worth exploring if our current challenges continue. My neighbor's son was recruited from the HS soccer team to kick and punt and turned into a quality starter in a matter of weeks.
Something to keep in mind in relation to placekicking, in some states high school kickers are allowed to use a tee when attempting field goals and extra points. They still have a holder but the ball is placed on a tee after receiving the snap. It’s much different kicking a FG off the ground like you do in college than with a tee. This is why you sometimes see kickers who were money in high school struggle in college. The first thing I try and find out was did they kick off a tee in high school.
This is a good point. I had a HS soccer teammate who the football coach recruited to kick and he ended up going FCS. In his highlight tapes, he made a point to show himself kicking field goals off the ground because they used tees in games... Definitely something coaches look at.
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Posted: 11/18/2020 6:48 AM
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bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
What about punts?

An embarrassing moment for me came in a JV game (luckily a sparse Saturday morning crowd with few family members in attendance) many years ago when I was the blocking back for our punter. All I remember was hearing the football hitting the punter's foot and less than 1 second later feeling it hit my rear end. I blamed the punter. He blamed me.
Catch to kick should be about 1.15 seconds, snap to kick 1.8-2.1 seconds. And preferably not up the butt of the up back.
Last Edited: 11/18/2020 6:48:59 AM by BillyTheCat
bobcatsquared
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Posted: 11/18/2020 10:13 AM
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SBH wrote:expand_more
Ball needs to be 10'+ within 7 yards of being kicked, minimum.
What about punts?

An embarrassing moment for me came in a JV game (luckily a sparse Saturday morning crowd with few family members in attendance) many years ago when I was the blocking back for our punter. All I remember was hearing the football hitting the punter's foot and less than 1 second later feeling it hit my rear end. I blamed the punter. He blamed me.
It was your massive behind.
That was the exact quote from my coach.
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Posted: 11/18/2020 11:58 AM
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Arkley's site recaps the coach's show from last night. Apparently there was one positive test and contact tracing plus a few injuries wiped out a position group. There were talks of moving the game to Saturday, but it was not believed that group would be in the clear by then. I don't see what the problem would have been to tentatively reschedule to Saturday and then make a final call Thursday. They also revealed that this particular group has the 4-6 week injury as well as another season-ender, and that there is a slim possibility the game will still be rescheduled.

What I also don't understand is that Cromer says nothing changes mathematically to win the MAC because win percentage takes precedence. If you have a team at 4-1 and another at 5-1 at the top of the division, and the 5-1 team's loss is to the former, who goes to the championship? Win percentage favors the 5-1 team.
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Posted: 11/18/2020 12:24 PM
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shabamon wrote:expand_more
Arkley's site recaps the coach's show from last night. Apparently there was one positive test and contact tracing plus a few injuries wiped out a position group. There were talks of moving the game to Saturday, but it was not believed that group would be in the clear by then. I don't see what the problem would have been to tentatively reschedule to Saturday and then make a final call Thursday. They also revealed that this particular group has the 4-6 week injury as well as another season-ender, and that there is a slim possibility the game will still be rescheduled.

What I also don't understand is that Cromer says nothing changes mathematically to win the MAC because win percentage takes precedence. If you have a team at 4-1 and another at 5-1 at the top of the division, and the 5-1 team's loss is to the former, who goes to the championship? Win percentage favors the 5-1 team.
I think you're right. The B10 provides that, where teams don't play the same number of games, they'll look first whether the teams have the same number of losses. Then they'll look at head-to-head. https://bigten.org/documents/2020/10/22/2020_Big_Ten_Foot... . I haven't seen anything in writing for the MAC. There have been press reports quoting Steinbrecher as saying they'll look first at winning percentage. That means the 5-1 team would go to the MACCG in your example. It's a bit unfair to the 4-1 team that would win on head-to-head.
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Posted: 11/18/2020 12:47 PM
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shabamon wrote:expand_more
Arkley's site recaps the coach's show from last night. Apparently there was one positive test and contact tracing plus a few injuries wiped out a position group. There were talks of moving the game to Saturday, but it was not believed that group would be in the clear by then. I don't see what the problem would have been to tentatively reschedule to Saturday and then make a final call Thursday. They also revealed that this particular group has the 4-6 week injury as well as another season-ender, and that there is a slim possibility the game will still be rescheduled.

What I also don't understand is that Cromer says nothing changes mathematically to win the MAC because win percentage takes precedence. If you have a team at 4-1 and another at 5-1 at the top of the division, and the 5-1 team's loss is to the former, who goes to the championship? Win percentage favors the 5-1 team.
So, the one test allowed us to cancel based on injuries?
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Posted: 11/18/2020 1:44 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Arkley's site recaps the coach's show from last night. Apparently there was one positive test and contact tracing plus a few injuries wiped out a position group. There were talks of moving the game to Saturday, but it was not believed that group would be in the clear by then. I don't see what the problem would have been to tentatively reschedule to Saturday and then make a final call Thursday. They also revealed that this particular group has the 4-6 week injury as well as another season-ender, and that there is a slim possibility the game will still be rescheduled.

What I also don't understand is that Cromer says nothing changes mathematically to win the MAC because win percentage takes precedence. If you have a team at 4-1 and another at 5-1 at the top of the division, and the 5-1 team's loss is to the former, who goes to the championship? Win percentage favors the 5-1 team.
So, the one test allowed us to cancel based on injuries?
It was the test plus the contact tracing plus the injuries that wiped out an entire position group. I haven't seen anything from the MAC, but the SEC requires a team to have seven offensive linemen (which includes one center), one quarterback and four defensive linemen before they can play. So if any one of these position groups is wiped out by a combination of testing, tracing and/or injuries, the game is called off. The MAC may be more liberal, so a game might be called off if, for example, all running backs were unavailable.
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