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BattleCat
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Posted: 7/8/2011 10:46 PM
Self-imposed sanctions is a BIG part of the NCAA process, nothing new or fishy here, just part of the process.
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Posted: 7/8/2011 11:24 PM
And as in this case, the self imposed sanctions are often a joke.  The NCAA pays little attention to them.  Just a school trying cover its ass - part of the process, but has no impact on the final ruling.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 7/9/2011 12:08 AM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
And as in this case, the self imposed sanctions are often a joke.  The NCAA pays little attention to them.  Just a school trying cover its ass - part of the process, but has no impact on the final ruling.


It seems to me that self-imposed sactions are kind of a chance for a school to limit their penalties slightly. The school ideally sets a punishment that is slightly less than what the NCAA might have set for it, but it's enough that the NCAA says it's good enough. Sometimes teams don't set the penalties high enough and then they get hammered with further sanctions. It's just a matter of if the NCAA thinks this is in the realm of fairness.

Either way, we still lost to Ohio State, but Ohio State didn't win. Of course that makes no sense, but as long as wins are "vacated" Ohio State ended up basically 0-1 as far as records go (with the Wisconsin loss still holding up). We still maintain a loss to Ohio State. Nothing changes on our end.
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Posted: 7/9/2011 12:42 AM
I will never admit that we lost to columbus.  For instance, a few years back we led early in the 4th qtr.  They scored a td to go ahead.  And put it away on a punt return for a td which featured a textbook, couldn't-teach-it-better clipping block that the refs didn't call.  Of course it was difficult to see as it was right in the middle of a spread out punt return play and right by the guy returning the kick.

Last year?  They cheated.

cough cough b.j. cough cough
Bobcat Grad 86
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Posted: 7/9/2011 8:30 AM
First Street Forever
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Posted: 7/9/2011 9:51 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
I will never admit that we lost to columbus.  For instance, a few years back we led early in the 4th qtr.  They scored a td to go ahead.  And put it away on a punt return for a td which featured a textbook, couldn't-teach-it-better clipping block that the refs didn't call.  Of course it was difficult to see as it was right in the middle of a spread out punt return play and right by the guy returning the kick.


Nah, Ohio lost that game because they gave it them. That muffed punt might be the most devastating moment I've personally seen in Ohio athletics. Worse than Grunk's dagger. Worse than seeing Boals go down with a torn knee. Worse than seeing JT's shot getting blocked by Boykins (ok, that was just funny)...
Bobcat Debate 73
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Posted: 7/9/2011 7:12 PM
Ohio won the mascot battle, the band battle (seriously they were much better), OHIO took
home big bucks (payment for playing at Columbus, now we are the first team not to lose to Ohio A & M simnce the 1920"s.  Savor it, do not try to justify it.  Folks Ohio, Ohio U,  OU, whatever you call has bee an excellent academic insitution since 1804.  We live in Virginia.  But my son graduated this year from OHIO.  He loved the campus when he saw it.  We paid more because we are out of state.  I loved, yes loved coming back to visit Athens.  I will do so again evn though son has his ME degree.  We beat Ohio A& M for three quarters two/three years ago.  I attended the game at Columbus.  I had a wonderfu time.  We thought we lost.  We tried our best.  Guess what ,we did  not lose.  If you want to get technical, OHIO complied with the rules  and Ohio A & M did not.  Man I appreciate the team, Solich, the University (with its freckels), and rooting for a team that never won when I was in school (69-73).  But you know it is my school and we did not lose to OHIO A & M, the school my cousin played for and received a Rose Bowl ring.  This is historic.  I feel bad for Tressel, not so much for the players.  Doggone, no reason to highlight we lost on the scoreboard, especially when we won  because we played by the rules and Ohio A & M did not.  Hey, its just a game.  What I do know, is that I would be where I am if I had not attended OHIO UNIVERSITY.  Great school, great alumni, and great message board!!!!   
 
Last Edited: 7/9/2011 7:30:58 PM by Bobcat Debate 73
MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 7/10/2011 8:13 AM
Typical O$U fans who vacated their ability to reason are talking trash to the Rockets in that the Bucks will beat them by 30 and could do it even if the first two strings were suspended.  Go Rockets!  Be prepared If you win, unlike your fantastic wins against Michigan and Penn State, your win against the O$U will come with all kinds of excuses by sports writers and by cherry kool aide drinking fans. 


Last Edited: 7/10/2011 8:15:03 AM by MonroeClassmate
BobcatSports
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Posted: 7/10/2011 4:17 PM

Put this in the category of most embarrassing posts ever.

OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/10/2011 11:39 PM
BobcatSports wrote:expand_more

Put this in the category of most embarrassing posts ever.



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Posted: 7/11/2011 9:40 AM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
Piney/BC - no surprise that I disagree.  But what you may think is simply blind hatred for OSU playing itself out in wanting/praying for tough penalties is actually based on the fact I am hearing the same rhetoric out of Knoxville as I hear out of Columbus/you - which isn't a good thing for either Knoxville or Columbus.  The husband of a business associate is UT through and through.  Friend of mine is ex-UT women's basketball player.  Both echo the same rhetoric - we got rid of Pearl, the infractions are no big deal, we are cleaning our house and imposing sanctions, etc. Unfortunately, it is a bad time to be under the gun. 


But there is a difference between the UT and OSU infractions. The NCAA does not like recruiting issues, the OSU infraction has to do with extra benefits. PLUS UT got cited for some football issues along with the basketball ones, and was cited for "failure to promote". I know... you might not think of them as big differences, but they are slightly different. In addition, I don't think Tennessee is going to be hit bad either.

Quote:expand_more
The NCAA has made it clear they want to be tough on those caught breaking the rules - "We need to make sure our penalty structure and enforce­ment process imposes a thoughtful level of concern, and that the cost of violating the rules costs more than not violat­ing them" - Mark Emmert NCAA President.  The NCAA knows everyone is pulling these shenanigans.  But they can't look the other way when they are so out in the open.  Unfortunately, the NCAA has incredible leeway in assigning penalty.  Based on a little fire and a lot of smoke, they can assign pretty tough sanctions.  More than what you would get for tattoos. 


I admit... this is the big unknown. If you go by previous issues, the Ohio State self-imposed penalties fall in line with previous penalized programs that had the same issues. REMEMBER, the issues for now are only the head coach knowingly playing ineligible players and lying to the NCAA. All the other stuff is white noise til proven.

Quote:expand_more
At the end of the day, they know as fact, the answer to three questions. 

Did Tressel/OSU know the players were selling memorabilia, and/or trading for tattoos (both of which are an infraction thus making the players ineligible). Answer is Yes.

And then the two biggies:

Did Tressel/OSU knowingly then allow these players to play.  The Answer is Yes.  Thus the coach knowingly played  ineligible players and knowingly broke the rules. 

Was the coach less than forthright in dealing with the NCAA?  The answer is yes.  When provided the opportunity to come clean, he did not - over and over again.


Just one correction on this... ONLY Tressel knew about this. OSU did not. BIG difference and that difference is what OSU is selling to the NCAA. Because OSU is telling the NCAA that once THEY found out about it they acted on it. (ie telling the NCAA)

Quote:expand_more
It is not a question of what they should get, it is what they will get.  The NCAA comes down hard when they have anything to go on - just ask UNC (a second tier program).  And yes, that involved an agent, but do you think the NCAA feels the guy in Columbus is stand-up?


Did you read the UNC Notice of Allegations? MUCH different than the OSU NOA. UNC had ACADEMIC fraud and a failure to monitor tag. AND they had an assistant coach nailed for being a runner for an agent??? Juuuuuuust a bit bigger than Ohio State's allegations in my humble opinion.

Quote:expand_more
And today's actions regarding Tressel will not help their argument.  We blame the coach.  He alone caused all this. So we got rid of him.  Rescind his $250,000 fine and pay him $50,000.  How convenient that the day he formally falls on the sword with the NCAA he profits $300,000. 

They will not let UT or OSU off lightly.  Will they let them break the rules and punish themselves?  They simply can't.  They come down light - the whole country laughs at them.  They come down hard and Columbus and Knoxville are upset.  Pretty easy choice.  Not justice, just reality.

We'll see in a few months.


The rescinding the fine is interesting. But look at it this way. What if they kept the fine but instead gave Tressel a buy-out of his contract that normally comes with a resignation, and paid Tressel a couple of million? So basically it is just semantics of what Tressel did, retirement versus resigning versus being fired. The end result is the same, Tressel is gone and most likey the NCAA will give him a hefty no-show penalty to prevent him from coaching for X amount of years.

Another note... when does the NCAA care about public outcry? Newton got to play, the Tat 5 were allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl... the NCAA will do what they do regardless of what people complain about.

So how about this reality... The NCAA doesn't care what the media says or what people think. They care about what they can prove. They have no subpeona power so they can't get the sources that gave all the dirt to the media to even return the NCAA calls. So the ONLY thing they have is Tressel lied and the already reported Tat 5. Those players are already suspended for 5 games (which is the normal punishment). And the fact Tressel lied was brought to them by Ohio State themeselves, and eventually forced him to leave.

In the end they accept Ohio State's self imposed penalties and tack on a few scholarship reductions (2-3/year for 3-4 years) and maybe extend the probation. And in reality... that would be the most severe penalties that any program that faced these allegations would have gotten in the history of the NCAA.
Piney
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Posted: 7/11/2011 9:52 AM
Found this interesting tidbit.

What if I told you a program did the following:

1) An assistant coach provided extra benefits directly to a student athlete. Specifically airline tickets to get to and from college his first semester.

2) This same assistant committed a 10.1 violation by telling the NCAA that the student athlete paid him back (complete with a phony receipt).

3) The same assistant also committed academic fraud. Specifically he had the head coach's father in law compose a final exam paper for a student athlete.

4) Same assistant committed another 10.1 violation regarding the said academic fraud.

5) Found that the Head Coach failed to maintain a atmosphere of compliance. Said Head Coach, among other things, directed another assistant coach to provide "gas money" to two student athletes, without notifying compliance.

6) Head and Assistant Coaches committed other secondary violations.


And then what if I told you that these were the penalties handed down by the NCAA


1) Show cause for both the head and assistant coach. (They had already been fired or resigned).

2) One year post season ban. (self imposed)

3) Vacation of all wins that ineligible athletes competed in.

4) One year of probation.

5) $ 2500 fine to the NCAA.

6) University ordered to disassociate themselves from the person that aided in the academic fraud (The Ex Head Coaches Father in Law)

Would you be surprised if I told you this ruling happened just 5 months ago???


www.bgsfirm.com/college-sports-law-blog/the-ncaa-committee-on-infractions-has-spoken-university-of-southern-indiana-division-ii

Yes, I know... division II basketball is different than division I football... But it is interesting none the less.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 10:42 AM
Glad you included the link.  I thought you were talking about Tressel when he was an assistant coach.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 12:48 PM
First Street Forever wrote:expand_more
Nah, Ohio lost that game because they gave it them. That muffed punt might be the most devastating moment I've personally seen in Ohio athletics.


Couldn't agree more...That was devastating...

And worse...completely unecessary as it occurred when he was pinned to the sideline anyway...
Bobcat36
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Posted: 7/11/2011 12:50 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
Just one correction on this... ONLY Tressel knew about this. OSU did not. BIG difference and that difference is what OSU is selling to the NCAA. Because OSU is telling the NCAA that once THEY found out about it they acted on it. (ie telling the NCAA)


B
S
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Posted: 7/11/2011 1:07 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
But there is a difference between the UT and OSU infractions. The NCAA does not like recruiting issues, the OSU infraction has to do with extra benefits. PLUS UT got cited for some football issues along with the basketball ones, and was cited for "failure to promote". I know... you might not think of them as big differences, but they are slightly different. In addition, I don't think Tennessee is going to be hit bad either.


Nor do they like schools that play players knowing they were ineligible.  As I have stated all along, this is not about extra benefits.  It is about the program covering up the benefits and in doing so, keeping the players on the field.  The crime is not going to kill them, like always, it's the cover-up.  And the, "it was all Tressel" stance is not going to fly with the NCAA.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 1:55 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
And you guys are setting your self up for disappointment on this sanction stuff in my opinion. Going to play out like a Nancy Grace show after the Anthony Trial, you will be in disbelief. Sports Illustrated just chimed in that the penalties were reasonable.


Yep, unless the NCAA sends another Notice of Allegations for the Cars/TP/Memoribilia... this is all that is going to happen. MAYBE the NCAA might tack a few scholarship losses (like 2-3 per year for 3-4 years) or extend the probation. And don't hold your breathe on another Notice of Allegations from the NCAA as most of the stuff that has been reported over the past few months haven't been proven by the NCAA.


Ummm..Not...

http://espn.go.com/blog/BigTen/post/_/id/28948/ohio-state-response-falls-far-short

This piece does an excellent job of calling out the arrogance that continues to flow out of that sham of a University...Any A&M "fan" that's not presently calling for Smith and Gee's respective resignations should be embarrassed.  Although now that I read my own statement, that's sort of an oxymoron.

This particular statement is especially amusing when put up against the statements that both Gee and Smith made during the initial press conference.

"The responsibility is upon Tressel," the response says. "The institution is embarrassed by the actions of Tressel."

It's actually entertaining to watch the apologists at work...

The hammer cometh...
Bobcat36
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Posted: 7/11/2011 1:56 PM
First Street Forever wrote:expand_more
If I was the NCAA, part of any punishment would include this:

Ohio State is mandated to play an away game at each of the OOC teams it played in 2010... and forgo any payment for these games.

Now that's punishment. Real punishment.


Now THAT's an idea!
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Posted: 7/11/2011 2:03 PM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
But there is a difference between the UT and OSU infractions. The NCAA does not like recruiting issues, the OSU infraction has to do with extra benefits. PLUS UT got cited for some football issues along with the basketball ones, and was cited for "failure to promote". I know... you might not think of them as big differences, but they are slightly different. In addition, I don't think Tennessee is going to be hit bad either.


Nor do they like schools that play players knowing they were ineligible.  As I have stated all along, this is not about extra benefits.  It is about the program covering up the benefits and in doing so, keeping the players on the field.  The crime is not going to kill them, like always, it's the cover-up.  And the, "it was all Tressel" stance is not going to fly with the NCAA.


Piney is also forgetting two big issues:

1.  The Jim O'Brien embarrassment, a major violation, this major being within that probation period. (another event the University claimed of which only the coach knew)
2.  More than 375 minor violations reported since 2000, more than any other BCS school.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/05/31/FERPA_OSU.ART_ART_05-31-09_A14_D4E14K6.html?sid=101

These things will be a big part of the NCAA showing tOSU's program has been out of control for some time.

And because every damn tOSU apologist always makes the same case, CAM NEVER GOT PAID, AND NEITHER DID HIS DAD.  His dad just asked for cash from MSU, and they didn't pay.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 2:44 PM
The fact that tOSU has more minor violations than any other BCS school means nothing, for one they participate in the most sports (tied with Stanford I believe) and secondly they have always seemed more apt to report violations than other schools.  Because you can't convince me that other big schools, especially SEC schools are cleaner than tOSU *cough Auburn cough*.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 3:13 PM
And a day doesn't go by without hearing about Stanford and their endless violations 
Piney
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Posted: 7/11/2011 3:31 PM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
Nor do they like schools that play players knowing they were ineligible.  As I have stated all along, this is not about extra benefits.  It is about the program covering up the benefits and in doing so, keeping the players on the field.  The crime is not going to kill them, like always, it's the cover-up.  And the, "it was all Tressel" stance is not going to fly with the NCAA.


Of course any major violation the NCAA cares about, but they do have an heirarchy...

1. Academic Fraud
2. Paying for recruits
3. Agents
4. Extra Benefits
Piney
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Posted: 7/11/2011 3:37 PM
D.A. wrote:expand_more
Piney is also forgetting two big issues:

1.  The Jim O'Brien embarrassment, a major violation, this major being within that probation period. (another event the University claimed of which only the coach knew)
2.  More than 375 minor violations reported since 2000, more than any other BCS school.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/05/31/FERPA_OSU.ART_ART_05-31-09_A14_D4E14K6.html?sid=101

These things will be a big part of the NCAA showing tOSU's program has been out of control for some time.

And because every damn tOSU apologist always makes the same case, CAM NEVER GOT PAID, AND NEITHER DID HIS DAD.  His dad just asked for cash from MSU, and they didn't pay.


The minor violations are nothing... really Joe Pa turned in a minor violation for walking by a summer practice accidentily. Actually what it shows is OSU is more than willing to turn in anything/everything to the NCAA. So the thought that OSU knew this was going on becomes less likely.

Regarding O'Brien... Basically within days of finding this they fired him. Of course O'Brien then sued for wrongful termination and won. Which is why they took their time getting rid of Tressel.

Within the probation period? You do realize the O'Brien violation occured over 10 years ago, right? And the probation is for the basketball program, not the football program.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 4:01 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
Nor do they like schools that play players knowing they were ineligible.  As I have stated all along, this is not about extra benefits.  It is about the program covering up the benefits and in doing so, keeping the players on the field.  The crime is not going to kill them, like always, it's the cover-up.  And the, "it was all Tressel" stance is not going to fly with the NCAA.


Of course any major violation the NCAA cares about, but they do have an heirarchy...

1. Academic Fraud
2. Paying for recruits
3. Agents
4. Extra Benefits


So playing ineligible players is #5 at best?  I don't think so.  I have no point of reference for your initial 4, but once a program and/or head coach knows of one of those four violations and then plays the player, the situation worsens - otherwise, the coach would always play the player in question and cover up the initial violation because there would be no worse penalty coming for the cover-up. 

Therefore, the cover-up must be at the top of your hierarchy.
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Posted: 7/11/2011 4:25 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
Piney is also forgetting two big issues:

1.  The Jim O'Brien embarrassment, a major violation, this major being within that probation period. (another event the University claimed of which only the coach knew)
2.  More than 375 minor violations reported since 2000, more than any other BCS school.

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2009/05/31/FERPA_OSU.ART_ART_05-31-09_A14_D4E14K6.html?sid=101

These things will be a big part of the NCAA showing tOSU's program has been out of control for some time.

And because every damn tOSU apologist always makes the same case, CAM NEVER GOT PAID, AND NEITHER DID HIS DAD.  His dad just asked for cash from MSU, and they didn't pay.


The minor violations are nothing... really Joe Pa turned in a minor violation for walking by a summer practice accidentily. Actually what it shows is OSU is more than willing to turn in anything/everything to the NCAA. So the thought that OSU knew this was going on becomes less likely.

Regarding O'Brien... Basically within days of finding this they fired him. Of course O'Brien then sued for wrongful termination and won. Which is why they took their time getting rid of Tressel.

Within the probation period? You do realize the O'Brien violation occured over 10 years ago, right? And the probation is for the basketball program, not the football program.


Five years probation in 2006: http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/07/08/0708-ohio-state-pleads-case-to-ncaa.html, sorry.  And 375 minor viloations, regardless of whether or not they are self reported show a pattern of disregard that the NCAA will not ignore.
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