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Topic: OT: Tattoo Gate
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John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 12/30/2010 12:38 PM
By your definition most all college scholarship athletes are hired guns. They are providing their services in exchange for payment I.E. Scholarships, meal plans, shoes, apparell, travel and the other perks they receive
Last Edited: 12/30/2010 12:40:34 PM by John C. Wanamaker
Robert Fox
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Posted: 12/30/2010 1:51 PM
In that sense they are hired guns. But nostalgia makes fans believe and hope many of them are playing for love of the game and for love of the university. This OSU incident flies in face of that nostalgia, and that is why I believe it's getting some uproar.
KC Bobcat
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Posted: 12/30/2010 2:30 PM
I heard on ESPN radio this morning Tressell said the only way they could play in the bowl game, was if they guaranteed to come back and play next season.
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Posted: 12/30/2010 3:23 PM
KC Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I heard on ESPN radio this morning Tressell said the only way they could play in the bowl game, was if they guaranteed to come back and play next season.


Hah.  And what happens if they change their mind?  Is Tressell going to sue them?

This is just beyond silly. 

The NCAA wears no clothes.
Last Edited: 12/30/2010 3:34:49 PM by Ohio69
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Posted: 12/30/2010 3:46 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
I heard on ESPN radio this morning Tressell said the only way they could play in the bowl game, was if they guaranteed to come back and play next season.


Hah.  And what happens if they change their mind?  Is Tressell going to sue them.

This is just beyond silly. 

The NCAA wears no clothes.


Tressel won't sue them, but they would probably become outcasts of the Buckeye family.

#1 - Good luck trying to work out at Ohio St's pro day.

#2 - Good luck trying to have Tressel vouch for them to NFL GMs/scouts

#3 - At best any of them are 3rd rounders... with just the two things above if they will be drafted before the 5th round

#4 - Ohio St former players are treat like gods in Columbus. It's a fraternity. Whatever job they want they can get. Look how many former OSU players are in the media in Columbus. Sales/Insurance jobs are basically guaranteed for those that want them. Basically... former players are taken care of by Columbus. All of that gets thrown out of the window.

You can't underestimate how important that is. Especially for these guys that will be 3rd-7th rounders/undrafted free agents.
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Posted: 12/30/2010 3:56 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
I heard on ESPN radio this morning Tressell said the only way they could play in the bowl game, was if they guaranteed to come back and play next season.


Hah.  And what happens if they change their mind?  Is Tressell going to sue them?

This is just beyond silly. 

The NCAA wears no clothes.


Here it is from the Dispatch:

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2010/... type="_moz" />
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Posted: 12/30/2010 3:57 PM
mcbin wrote:expand_more
I need a little help figuring something out here. In my years of following OSU, and the years of living in Columbus, I've never seen OSU fans/media act the way they are this year. What I mean by this is in years past, every indiscretion by an OSU athlete was rushed to be downplayed, ignored, disproved, or otherwise swept under the rug. However this year, it seems like all angles of OSU faithful think these players 'deserve everything they get', and even wonder why they're playing in the bowl game.

My question to those who have a guess is why OSU fans are up in arms this time around(and not usually)?

- Is it because the 'season is lost' as they're not in the title game?

- are these players (esp. Pryor) not 'loved' as prior OSU players have been?

- Something else?

It doesn't matter a whole lot to me, but seems that buckeye nation got a conscience all of a sudden.


While it is a mix of all of those things, I think the big issue is the 'season is lost'. Who cares if they miss a bowl game that isn't the National Championship? BUT, missing 5 games next season really screws up the 2011 season. And by screwing it up, meaning those guys leaving for the NFL because of this and/or them being rusty coming back for the meat of the 2011 schedule.

Another big part is Pryor. Pryor is wearing out his welcome really quick in Columbus. He hasn't lived up to the hype yet and his immaturity is starting to wear thin. His tweets, his demeanor on the sidelines and the view he is pampered.
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Posted: 1/5/2011 9:21 AM
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 10:01 AM
PA Bobcat Fan wrote:expand_more


What he did was wrong (against the rules wrong) and the powers that be have made their decision on the punishment and Pryor will have to live with that consequence (if he stays).  But what I find interesting about this article is how they use TP for the poster boy and compare him to Reggie Bush and the USC basketball scandal.  This is a little over the top in my opinion, he sold possessions that he thought were his (and legally are his), but Bush took money to play, and the USC basketball issue is much more grave than anything Pryor did.  I also find it funny that Cam Newton's family can prostitute him for $150k and he is held in higher light than someone who sold possessions valued at $2,500.00.  Not to mention the fact that Pryor has attended only one school (Newton is on his third) and has always been in good academic standing (NCAA standards) while Newton has academic black marks all over his transcript.  This piece of journalism above is as arbitary as the rules of the NCAA.
Bobcat36
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Posted: 1/5/2011 10:08 AM
Yeah and here's the original Dispatch report on the "loaner cars"...

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/sports/stories/2011/01/02/no-ncaa-violation-found-in-pryor-using-loaned-cars.html?sid=101

As the writer points out, basically a mirror image of one of Maurice Clarett's varied activities that the Ohio State "compliance" department deemed Kosher.  It's absolutely laughable that every time something like this is made too public to ignore, former players are quoted with something thing that directly conflicts with the web of lies thrown out by the A&M "Administration".

Delany - Gee - Smith - Tressel -  Doug Archie...Nothing more than self serving pimps.  The NCAA knows damn well what's going on there and doesn't have the spine required to react until they're forced to.

The fact that 3 of these jokers accounted for 80% of the scoring and a 4th (ironically a non starter) sealed the deal with an INT is a travesty.

I honestly agree with the writer...I hope they all come back...If nothing else the completely transparent corruption is entertaining...
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Posted: 1/5/2011 10:21 AM

It’s over.  And now Ohio State fans can go sit in the corner and next to Georgia fans and complain about the hypocrisy of the NCAA.  Won’t help, the NCAA will not reduce the ruling; especially after letting the players play in the bowl game. 

 

Hopefully Pryor will learn from this situation and use the money he made to hire a speech coach: "What did I learn? It's two years ago, you know, so I already knew what I should have done two years ago," Pryor said. "So to tell the truth, I didn't learn much because I already knew what I should have did two years ago. Now I wouldn't make the same decision, so I couldn't tell you I learned something because I already knew what I did wrong."  If he can’t find one in Columbus, I’m sure he can borrow a car and drive out of town to find one.

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Posted: 1/5/2011 10:29 AM
John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more


What he did was wrong (against the rules wrong) and the powers that be have made their decision on the punishment and Pryor will have to live with that consequence (if he stays).  But what I find interesting about this article is how they use TP for the poster boy and compare him to Reggie Bush and the USC basketball scandal.  This is a little over the top in my opinion, he sold possessions that he thought were his (and legally are his), but Bush took money to play, and the USC basketball issue is much more grave than anything Pryor did.  I also find it funny that Cam Newton's family can prostitute him for $150k and he is held in higher light than someone who sold possessions valued at $2,500.00.  Not to mention the fact that Pryor has attended only one school (Newton is on his third) and has always been in good academic standing (NCAA standards) while Newton has academic black marks all over his transcript.  This piece of journalism above is as arbitary as the rules of the NCAA.


JCW...

That piece of journalism quotes a former player and a current player directly conflicting the lies that Smith and Tressel are spinning and the funny thing is it wasn't even intended.  It just goes to show what happens when the Assistant Coach whose job it is to censor high profile players public statements isn't standing right there 24x7.

To say that Pryor has remained in good academic standing while Newton has not is in itself an arbitrary statement.  A&M's stringent "academic" standards were exposed during the Clarett fiasco when it came out that he was allowed to take verbal exams where mainstream students were expected to complete standard written exams.   Beyond the obvious subjective grading implications of this practice, the truly telling fallout from that story is that the person that leaked the information was subsequently publicly drug through the mud and relieved of her duties at that fine institution.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 10:47 AM
Bobcat36 wrote:expand_more


What he did was wrong (against the rules wrong) and the powers that be have made their decision on the punishment and Pryor will have to live with that consequence (if he stays).  But what I find interesting about this article is how they use TP for the poster boy and compare him to Reggie Bush and the USC basketball scandal.  This is a little over the top in my opinion, he sold possessions that he thought were his (and legally are his), but Bush took money to play, and the USC basketball issue is much more grave than anything Pryor did.  I also find it funny that Cam Newton's family can prostitute him for $150k and he is held in higher light than someone who sold possessions valued at $2,500.00.  Not to mention the fact that Pryor has attended only one school (Newton is on his third) and has always been in good academic standing (NCAA standards) while Newton has academic black marks all over his transcript.  This piece of journalism above is as arbitary as the rules of the NCAA.


JCW...

That piece of journalism quotes a former player and a current player directly conflicting the lies that Smith and Tressel are spinning and the funny thing is it wasn't even intended.  It just goes to show what happens when the Assistant Coach whose job it is to censor high profile players public statements isn't standing right there 24x7.

To say that Pryor has remained in good academic standing while Newton has not is in itself an arbitrary statement.  A&M's stringent "academic" standards were exposed during the Clarett fiasco when it came out that he was allowed to take verbal exams where mainstream students were expected to complete standard written exams.   Beyond the obvious subjective grading implications of this practice, the truly telling fallout from that story is that the person that leaked the information was subsequently publicly drug through the mud and relieved of her duties at that fine institution.


I said Pryor has been in good academic standing as far as the NCAA is concerned, that is a FACT!  You can whine all you want about schools academic standards but the NCAA is the authority on non-initinal eligibility, NO other school in the country has higher standards than NCAA minimums after initial eligibility is established.  (and I love the fact that you want to bash OSU's athletes and academics when we have played in two of our last four games with at least one starter not able to make the trip because of academic issues, but he don't let that cloud your judgement either) It is also a FACT that Cam Newton has a blighted academic record and has been to three different schools, however you want to argue the facts.....And I love how some of you think selling a $2,500 ring is worth more punishment than taking 150k.  My entire point of the matter is that to use Pryor as the poster boy as proof of the NCAA's lack of consistency while not even bringing Newton in to the picture is poor journalism.
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:01 AM
John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
And I love how some of you think selling a $2,500 ring is worth more punishment than taking 150k.  My entire point of the matter is that to use Pryor as the poster boy as proof of the NCAA's lack of consistency while not even bringing Newton in to the picture is poor journalism.


No question there is incredible inconsistency.  AJ Green was the poster boy of the inconsistency long before tattoo-gate.  Maybe I'm missing something, but show me a post in this thread where anyone says they think the OSU boys should be punished more than Cam Newton.  Newton got a away with murder.  Can't base every future punishment on that.
Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:08:34 AM by cc-cat
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:05 AM
ccCat, I never said ANY poster said that!  What I said was I do not understand the article using Pryor and his indescretions and the omission of Newton, (not that any poster did this).  Especially when compared to Reggie Bush and USC Basketball, who IMO have way more in common with Newton than Pryor.  But a poster come running to beat down OSU (as usual) and in the process to defend Cam over Pryor's academics, which is simply NOT supported by the FACTS! 


On a side note we beat the Buckeyes in something!  We are a Top 10 team!!!!!  And #1 in the MAC!

http://www.sectalk.com/boards/sec-football-talk/84040-201...
Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:08:53 AM by John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:10 AM
"And I love how some of you think selling a $2,500 ring is worth more punishment than taking 150k." - oh, you were referring to the author of the articles.  My bad.
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:16 AM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
"And I love how some of you think selling a $2,500 ring is worth more punishment than taking 150k." - oh, you were referring to the author of the articles.  My bad.


Yes the post's were directed towards the article, not any specific poster.
Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:17:22 AM by John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:31 AM
John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more


What he did was wrong (against the rules wrong) and the powers that be have made their decision on the punishment and Pryor will have to live with that consequence (if he stays).  But what I find interesting about this article is how they use TP for the poster boy and compare him to Reggie Bush and the USC basketball scandal.  This is a little over the top in my opinion, he sold possessions that he thought were his (and legally are his), but Bush took money to play, and the USC basketball issue is much more grave than anything Pryor did.  I also find it funny that Cam Newton's family can prostitute him for $150k and he is held in higher light than someone who sold possessions valued at $2,500.00.  Not to mention the fact that Pryor has attended only one school (Newton is on his third) and has always been in good academic standing (NCAA standards) while Newton has academic black marks all over his transcript.  This piece of journalism above is as arbitary as the rules of the NCAA.


JCW...

That piece of journalism quotes a former player and a current player directly conflicting the lies that Smith and Tressel are spinning and the funny thing is it wasn't even intended.  It just goes to show what happens when the Assistant Coach whose job it is to censor high profile players public statements isn't standing right there 24x7.

To say that Pryor has remained in good academic standing while Newton has not is in itself an arbitrary statement.  A&M's stringent "academic" standards were exposed during the Clarett fiasco when it came out that he was allowed to take verbal exams where mainstream students were expected to complete standard written exams.   Beyond the obvious subjective grading implications of this practice, the truly telling fallout from that story is that the person that leaked the information was subsequently publicly drug through the mud and relieved of her duties at that fine institution.


I said Pryor has been in good academic standing as far as the NCAA is concerned, that is a FACT!  You can whine all you want about schools academic standards but the NCAA is the authority on non-initinal eligibility, NO other school in the country has higher standards than NCAA minimums after initial eligibility is established.  (and I love the fact that you want to bash OSU's athletes and academics when we have played in two of our last four games with at least one starter not able to make the trip because of academic issues, but he don't let that cloud your judgement either) It is also a FACT that Cam Newton has a blighted academic record and has been to three different schools, however you want to argue the facts.....And I love how some of you think selling a $2,500 ring is worth more punishment than taking 150k.  My entire point of the matter is that to use Pryor as the poster boy as proof of the NCAA's lack of consistency while not even bringing Newton in to the picture is poor journalism.


Let me begin by stating that you are one of my favorite posters and that I very much respect your insight and knowledge.  It's obvious though, that you simply don't like it when someone has the audacity to disagree with you...That's fine but let’s at least at least responsibly interpret the other's standpoint.

Your statement only strengthens my point.  Yes...We have played without those kids (because they weren't eligible)...Clarett on the other hand, significantly contributed to "winning" A&M a national championship while remaining eligible via verbal exams.   And yes I purposely quoted winning because they didn’t.

My point is that arguing Pryor's academic superiority over Newton (whom I couldn't care less about) is based on shaky ground to say the least and certainly does nothing to prove that the article itself was arbitrary.  While I appreciate you red fonting the fact's surrounding other schools minimum standards, I don't disagree with that fact nor did I mention it.  What I'm saying is that A&M has in the past proven that they are more than willing to assist specific players in meeting those standards (and the compliance department is willing to ignore significant smoke) so that the  player can contribute to their on-going domination of their conference, ensuring themselves a perennial spot in a BCS game and the financial rewards that accompany that spot.

Guilt or innocence is not and should not ever be based on how one case compares to another.  On that note, I didn't say selling a ring was worth more punishment than taking $150K...What I said was that Ohio A&M Athletics / Football (and the Big 10 Commissioner for that matter) are as corrupt as the day is long.  Auburn, Florida, the rest of the SEC...Hell the rest of the BCS Conferences may be as well.   That wasn't the point of the article and it wasn't the point of my argument.

OhioState has proved time and again that it's nothing more than a money laundering operation.  That fact along with the fact that the fan base and the conference is willing to overlook obvious violations and thinly veiled cover-ups makes them a laughing stock. 

Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:34:27 AM by Bobcat36
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:36 AM
36:  I respect your post as well and your views, but I did not bring Clarett into this or ever addressed Clarett.  There is no defense in this outside of stating the obvious that not one school in the country was going to pass on him or his abilities.  He made his bed and he has been forced to live with the consequences of his actions.  I hope as I do with all people that we learn from our experiences and better ourselves.  However, my post was and is focused on Pryor being compared to Bush and USC basketball and why Newton is not a part of that article.  I will easily stray from that topic if you want, but that was my focal point.

In regards to the academic issues, I stated that Pryor has been to only one school and has not been in NCAA or school jeopardy while Newton has been to three schools and has been in academic jeopardy.  Please recognize that the word superiority is your word and not mine, I am only stating that Pryor has stayed out of such a storm to this point.  Now, his fall quarter may not be great if he was planning to go pro I doubt he put much effort in.

As for complinance officials and athletic departments, all across the nation these guys jobs are to get their kids as much as they can and to assist them as much as they can.  OSU is just one piece of a larger national problem that exist at all levels of DI athletics.  These problems exist at every school.
Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:42:39 AM by John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/5/2011 11:41 AM
A bit off topic here, but I have two friends with children who were took verbal examinations in high school and college due to diagnosed learning disabilities. For what it's worth, both graduated and are leading productive lives as young adults.

Added point...neither one of these young folks were athletes.
Last Edited: 1/5/2011 11:46:30 AM by Joe McKinley
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Posted: 1/5/2011 12:23 PM
Thanks Joe...

Completely understand that's an option offered to all qualified students.  The elephant in the room in this case though is that the University chose to besmirch the person that divulged the information (with accusations of mental instability) and subsequently terminated her employment.
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Posted: 1/5/2011 12:31 PM
John C. Wanamaker wrote:expand_more
36:   OSU is just one piece of a larger national problem that exist at all levels of DI athletics.  These problems exist at every school.


A possibility that I acknowledged but that was not the base of my statements.  Again...A&M's willingness to overlook infractions in support of winning is not forgiveable because it goes on elsewhere as well.  Is it a larger problem?  Absolutely.  Does that excuse the NCAA, the Big 10 and A&M abusing the "special opportunity" loophole to let those kids directly impact the outcome of a BCS Bowl game?  Nope...
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Posted: 1/5/2011 4:21 PM
36, a few of your arguments are off base.  First off, most of the local fans absolutely did not look the other way.  Sports radio has been blasting the tatoo-5 since it happened as well.  An online poll had 80% of the voters saying they would like to see them sit for the Sugar Bowl.  I was actually surprised by how many people did want them to sit, and I was one of those people.

Second, Ohio State and Tressel declared all 5 of the players ineligible immediately after they found out.  The NCAA and the Sugar Bowl sponsors were the main culprits.  They were the ones who pushed for them to play in this game, not the school or the coach.

And if I had to guess, they will get the suspension reduced to 3 or 4 games.  The fact that none of them sold items to an agent will be the reason, as they will point out that AJ Green did sell to an agent.
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Posted: 1/5/2011 5:08 PM
Ozcat wrote:expand_more
36, a few of your arguments are off base.  First off, most of the local fans absolutely did not look the other way.  Sports radio has been blasting the tatoo-5 since it happened as well.  An online poll had 80% of the voters saying they would like to see them sit for the Sugar Bowl.  I was actually surprised by how many people did want them to sit, and I was one of those people.

Second, Ohio State and Tressel declared all 5 of the players ineligible immediately after they found out.  The NCAA and the Sugar Bowl sponsors were the main culprits.  They were the ones who pushed for them to play in this game, not the school or the coach.

And if I had to guess, they will get the suspension reduced to 3 or 4 games.  The fact that none of them sold items to an agent will be the reason, as they will point out that AJ Green did sell to an agent.


Oh yeah I know...I was honestly surprised (pleasantly) by the reaction myself.  But I don't hear anyone complaining about it today (post SEC monkey shaking).  And none of that sentiment changes the fact that Smith (and Tressel by omission) stood up in front of everyone and lied to the collective college football world to exploit a bylaw to allow them to play. 

"NCAA policy allows suspending withholding penalties for a championship or bowl game if it was reasonable at the time the student-athletes were not aware they were committing violations."

The fact that Allstate /  Sugar Bowl committee requested it doesn't excuse the University / Conference granting it.  They still have the final say.  All it means is that A&M didn't want to offend a gift horse they'll likely be in front of many times in the future and that they don't want to stir up waves with the conference so they took the opportunity to appear to take the high road but were "forced" to comply.
 
No one in their right mind believed that those players didn't know they were committing infractions and Pryor publicly admitted it...Anyone who wasn't living under a rock knew what happened earlier in the season with UNC and Georgia.

Additionally, if they had a shred of integrity, they wouldn't be challenging the ruling especially after those players were directly responsible for notching a BCS win for the school.  Hiding behind the difference between accepting benefits from an agent as opposed to a booster is sad and honestly insulting.

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Posted: 1/5/2011 5:47 PM
Ozcat wrote:expand_more

And if I had to guess, they will get the suspension reduced to 3 or 4 games.  The fact that none of them sold items to an agent will be the reason, as they will point out that AJ Green did sell to an agent.


Don't see it happening and here is why - if agents are evil 1A to the NCAA then boosters are 1B.  Both are deadly associates to athletes.  More schools are put on probation because of booster infractions, not agent infractions.  The NCAA will not differentiate.  After not imposing a ban on the bowl game, if they reduce the number of games they will take a PR hit.  One thing the NCAA does not like is attention - they will not bring it on themselves.  AJ Green was (supposedly) isolated.  This is anything but, starts to approach their favorite area of "lack of institutional control."  I don't agree with their penalty.  I didn't agree with AJ Green's.  The suspensions (my guess) will hold.  We'll see.
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