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Pataskala
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Posted: 7/14/2012 6:54 AM
OUBob wrote:expand_more
It's arguable that the NCAA's jurisdiction doesn't extend to what happened at Penn St.  If you look at its mission statement, it talks about education and athletes:

The NCAA Mission: “Our mission is to be an integral part of higher education and to focus on the development of our student-athletes.”

The Sandusky scandal doesn't involve either. 


What? You just contradicted yourself. Focus on our development of student athletes. Cant be done with a kid raper. End of arguement.

Absoluetly no reason they should be able to profit off football. Release all players from scholly immediately, without penalty. Allow them the option to play immediately elsewhere or sit out and retain that year of eligability.

I can't think of a better example of "loss of institutional control"


Not the end of the argument.  Bill Clinton had sex (although maybe not "sexual relations") with an intern.  Did that prevent him from being an effective president?  No.  (Although you might agree with his politics, at least he didn't screw up the economy and plunge us into a decade-long war.)  And that wasn't an impeachable offense (remember, they impeached him -- without a conviction -- for allegedly lying about it at deposition).  Do we want pedophiles in athletics depts?  No.  But this wasn't something involving the relationship between the school and its students.  The NCAA has no business getting involved.  It's better left for the courts -- where the school is looking at maybe $250 million in civil claims -- and the DOE, which is looking at further civil and maybe criminal prosecutions under Title IX.  Penn St isn't going to profit out of this, and in fact might go bankrupt.

Personally, I think the school would be smart (unlike O$U last year) to impose harsh sanctions on itself.  No bowl or Big Tedozen championship this year and maybe next; no TV games for the next three or four years; a big reduction in scholarships; maybe other things.  Something to show they're willing to penalize themselves without the NCAA getting involved.
Last Edited: 7/14/2012 7:09:24 AM by Pataskala
bobcat28
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Posted: 7/14/2012 7:42 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Why wait for the PSU fallout? Do we really want to play this game? What would happen if we backed out right now?


This is a crazy yet interesting idea. You want headlines and national recognition? Pulling out now and saying we dont agree with the morals of Penn State University would get us time on every media outlet in the US.
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Posted: 7/14/2012 8:51 AM
bobcat28 wrote:expand_more
Why wait for the PSU fallout? Do we really want to play this game? What would happen if we backed out right now?


This is a crazy yet interesting idea. You want headlines and national recognition? Pulling out now and saying we dont agree with the morals of Penn State University would get us time on every media outlet in the US.


Then everybody better start donating enough to cover what we would lose from the game as well as what we would owe from backing out at such a late date. I'm sure if we could raise $3-4 million to cover this game then we could easily raise the money it would cost to leave the MAC and join the Big East or others. I'm sure the board could donate $5 million a year to cover travel costs to fly all of our teams around the country.
bobcat28
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Posted: 7/14/2012 9:07 AM
I know its not realistic, and there would be ridiculous penalties, just interesting to think about.
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 7/14/2012 11:27 AM
Steven A. Smith on Sports Center this morning let his feelings be know.
CANCEL THE SEASON and the PROGRAM.
The pressure is mounting for the NCAA to make a some type of a decision now that FBI has released it's findings.
This story will have some legs especially since fall football camps are about 2 weeks away from opening.
In addition there will certainly be charges filed against the 3 administrators which will also keep this story on the front page.
If our game is played and remains on TV I can see it now...all the announcers will be discussing is the Sandusky case and it's impact on PSU.
I wonder how Solich will handle the build up and prep for this game. The players need to be educated as best as possible on what to expect and how to handle all the press and expected media frenzy around the game and the campus. I wouldn't be surprised to see ESPN do interviews at OHIO leading up to this game. After all, Kirk only lives 75 miles from campus.
We can all speculate on all the emotion around this 1st game for PSU.
IMO...Our team should not feel sorry for the PSU team only the victims, and play the game accordingly.



GO BOBCATS
Last Edited: 7/14/2012 11:31:30 AM by 71 BOBCAT
mf279801
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Posted: 7/14/2012 12:02 PM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Steven A. Smith on Sports Center this morning let his feelings be know.
CANCEL THE SEASON and the PROGRAM.
The pressure is mounting for the NCAA to make a some type of a decision now that FBI has released it's findings.
This story will have some legs especially since fall football camps are about 2 weeks away from opening.
In addition there will certainly be charges filed against the 3 administrators which will also keep this story on the front page.
If our game is played and remains on TV I can see it now...all the announcers will be discussing is the Sandusky case and it's impact on PSU.
I wonder how Solich will handle the build up and prep for this game. The players need to be educated as best as possible on what to expect and how to handle all the press and expected media frenzy around the game and the campus. I wouldn't be surprised to see ESPN do interviews at OHIO leading up to this game. After all, Kirk only lives 75 miles from campus.
We can all speculate on all the emotion around this 1st game for PSU.
IMO...Our team should not feel sorry for the PSU team only the victims, and play the game accordingly.


2 minor corrections: (1) The Freeh report was issued by the formar FBI director, it isn't actually an FBI document
(2) Kirk Herbstreit moved to Tennessee a couple years ago (b/c even he found State's fans to be pretty annoying)

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Posted: 7/14/2012 12:13 PM
Herby no longer lives in Columbus.  He now lives in Nashville.

Regarding the PSU situation all enities involved have a very difficult decision to make in a very short period of time. We have approx. 49 days before the 1st game week.

I have never seen the NCAA act on a "spur of the moment".  They take months to make inquiries.  They may wait until all parties have faced their court appearances, as well all of the court appeals that will follow.  All of the those court appearances are not scheduled until the middle of August.  The NCAA takes months to establish those penalties as well as those involved being allowed to make appeals on those actions. 

Let us say that the NCAA does react with a penalty very shortly, one would think that PSU would immediatley react by going to courts for a stay on those actions.  There are only 49 days before the first week.

Thus, I don't see any immediate decisions by the NCAA.  The only action that could be a possiblity would be the Board of Trustees establish the "death penalty"on the FB program..That could happen within weeks.  A possibility, but not a reality. I think that they would be faced with court actions by the taxpayers to stop such actions by the board.

The taxpayers are the one's who will be paying any lawsuits.  Any of the suit actions on Penn State presently will directly involve the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.  The taxpayers. 

A LONG WAY TO GO WITH A LOT OF LEGAL MANUVERS IN 49 DAYS??
Last Edited: 7/14/2012 12:19:59 PM by Panda
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/14/2012 2:28 PM
With all due respect, Pataskla, I don't think you are judging the seriousness of this situation correctly.  This scandal threatens to shake college football to its foundation.  If PSU is allowed to continue to play football as usual, the NCAA will be widely seen as a shame and D1 college football as a whole will be exposed as an unethical, money grubbing, monster.  The crime was bad enough, but the cover staggers the imagination.  If this had happened at Ohio I would be calling for at a minimum a three-year self-imposed death penalty for the football program and a thorough outside investigation to see if any others, including members of the Board of Trustees, had known about these crimes and were complicit in the coverup.  So far at PSU, we have a president (fired), an vp (fired), an AD (fired), and head football coach (fired, and deceased), but I suspect that there are others who knew and are equally culpable.  

mf279801
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Posted: 7/14/2012 2:48 PM
I for one would not look forward to explaining to the women's basketball coach and the olympic sports coaches that their salaries and budgets are getting cut by 70% over the course of a self-imposed football-death...
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Posted: 7/14/2012 4:51 PM
Isn't that the point though?  Football has too much power and puts the whole institution let alone the other sports programs at risk if anyone associated with the program does something wrong.  That's just crazy.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/14/2012 7:48 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
I for one would not look forward to explaining to the women's basketball coach and the olympic sports coaches that their salaries and budgets are getting cut by 70% over the course of a self-imposed football-death...


I'm afraid that this is one thing that you just shouldn't be able to use money to buy your way out of.  There's a principle here that's far more important than the inconveniences -- even major disruptions -- that it might cause other programs.  
Pataskala
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Posted: 7/14/2012 10:06 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
With all due respect, Pataskla, I don't think you are judging the seriousness of this situation correctly.  This scandal threatens to shake college football to its foundation.  If PSU is allowed to continue to play football as usual, the NCAA will be widely seen as a shame and D1 college football as a whole will be exposed as an unethical, money grubbing, monster.  The crime was bad enough, but the cover staggers the imagination.  If this had happened at Ohio I would be calling for at a minimum a three-year self-imposed death penalty for the football program and a thorough outside investigation to see if any others, including members of the Board of Trustees, had known about these crimes and were complicit in the coverup.  So far at PSU, we have a president (fired), an vp (fired), an AD (fired), and head football coach (fired, and deceased), but I suspect that there are others who knew and are equally culpable.  


They've already had the investigation.  That was the Freeh report, which may result in others losing their jobs or facing litigation.  With the all the litigation that Penn St is about to go through, plus considering they already fired the most culpable people in the case (the coach, the AD and the school prez), an NCAA sanction would be just piling on.  I think if the NCAA sticks its nose in, there will be a HUGE clamor among Penn St alumns and others in the Penn St community to sue the NCAA.  I don't think the NCAA wants that.  
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/14/2012 11:02 PM
Well, my response would be let 'em sue.  I know you're a lawyer and I'm not, but I don't think they'd be successful in suing the NCAA if they came down hard on PSU.  The NCAA rules are flexible enough -- look at the letter from the NCAA prez, as an example, that they can make a very reasonable case that NCAA rules have been violated.   Now, if PSU self-imposes a moratorium on playing football for a year or two, I will admit that that would be better than NCAA doing it.  But, if PSU doesn't have the will to do it themselves, it needs to be done from the outside.  Penn State needs to be made an example to show the world that D-1 college football is not a world unto itself and that if you engage in a coverup of this magnitude there will be very unpleasant repercussions.  This problem developed because of a culture of corruption in the football program and the football program needs to be punished for it.  
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Posted: 7/15/2012 12:44 AM
One question is the Big Ten. If Penn State drops football due to public pressure, they would have to replace Penn State.  
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Posted: 7/15/2012 7:22 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Well, my response would be let 'em sue.  I know you're a lawyer and I'm not, but I don't think they'd be successful in suing the NCAA if they came down hard on PSU.  The NCAA rules are flexible enough -- look at the letter from the NCAA prez, as an example, that they can make a very reasonable case that NCAA rules have been violated.   Now, if PSU self-imposes a moratorium on playing football for a year or two, I will admit that that would be better than NCAA doing it.  But, if PSU doesn't have the will to do it themselves, it needs to be done from the outside.  Penn State needs to be made an example to show the world that D-1 college football is not a world unto itself and that if you engage in a coverup of this magnitude there will be very unpleasant repercussions.  This problem developed because of a culture of corruption in the football program and the football program needs to be punished for it.  


1 count of loss of institutional control is nowhere near deserving the death penalty. The example needed isn't the most severe punishment for REPEAT severe rules violators. They absolutely should not throw away their athletic budget over this. They fired the responsible parties. The culture has been cleaned out and changed.
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Posted: 7/15/2012 9:09 AM
interesting thread.  to me, this is not all that different from the Imus situation several years.  Don Imus was NOT fired because he made racist comments.  He was fired because enough people/sponsors/organizations called for his dismissal.  If no one had complained, he would not have been fired.  My guess is the same situation is developing here.  If ESPN goes on a crusade, if Congress starts getting involved, if the NYTimes has its way, the NCAA may have little choice but to shut down the program.  If the pressure is less, than the NCAA will consider lesser penalties.  Watch for the first "pressure is building on the NCAA" story.  These become self-fulfilling prophecies, whether there really is pressure or not...
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Posted: 7/15/2012 10:05 AM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
These become self-fulfilling prophecies, whether there really is pressure or not...


I think what you're trying to say is that journalists like to influence events and drive the news, rather than be impartial reporters of fact. (An observation I'd agree with)
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Posted: 7/15/2012 10:43 AM
shutting down the penn st. football program would be "vengeance without justice..."

 
http://www.thenation.com/blog/168891/case-against-abolish...#
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Posted: 7/15/2012 11:15 AM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
shutting down the penn st. football program would be "vengeance without justice..."

 
http://www.thenation.com/blog/168891/case-against-abolish...#


I wonder how much of the media pressure is moral outrage, how much is CYA by those who feel betrayed by Paterno, and how much is anti-big school bias.
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Posted: 7/15/2012 12:33 PM
America suffers shortages - certain raw materials, doctors who choose careers as family practitioners, engineering graduates - who do not return to their homelands, etc.  What we have in abundance are opinions.  Eugene Robinson of The Washington Post offered his in an op-ed column that closes with the four paragraphs below.  I wonder to what extent the NCAA and Penn State board members are reading and absorbing such opinions.

       In a letter he wrote before his death, apparently intended as an op-ed piece, Paterno argued that whatever people might think of his actions in the Sandusky matter, "this is not a football scandal."
       But that's precisely what it is.
       Imagine that an assistant coach of, say, the chess team were caught showering with an 11-year-old boy, as Sandusky was in 1998.  Would that chess coach still be around three years later?  If he were caught in the act of abusing another young boy in 2001, would the top officials of the university dither and fret for days - without making the slightest attempt to identify and locate the victim?  Would the head chess coach be able to convince his superiors that there was no need to call state welfare officials, let alone the police?
       The truth is that Joe Paterno was more powerful at Penn State even than the university's president.  And the reputation of the football program was more important than the safety and well-being of innocent young boys. 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/15/2012 2:29 PM
+1 Mike -- great quote.   
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Posted: 7/15/2012 2:29 PM
Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
America suffers shortages - certain raw materials, doctors who choose careers as family practitioners, engineering graduates - who do not return to their homelands, etc.  What we have in abundance are opinions.  Eugene Robinson of The Washington Post offered his in an op-ed column that closes with the four paragraphs below.  I wonder to what extent the NCAA and Penn State board members are reading and absorbing such opinions.

       In a letter he wrote before his death, apparently intended as an op-ed piece, Paterno argued that whatever people might think of his actions in the Sandusky matter, "this is not a football scandal."
       But that's precisely what it is.
       Imagine that an assistant coach of, say, the chess team were caught showering with an 11-year-old boy, as Sandusky was in 1998.  Would that chess coach still be around three years later?  If he were caught in the act of abusing another young boy in 2001, would the top officials of the university dither and fret for days - without making the slightest attempt to identify and locate the victim?  Would the head chess coach be able to convince his superiors that there was no need to call state welfare officials, let alone the police?
       The truth is that Joe Paterno was more powerful at Penn State even than the university's president.  And the reputation of the football program was more important than the safety and well-being of innocent young boys. 


Couldn't agree more. Even if there were another varsity team, say Field Hockey or Swimming, this would be a completely different story. The power of football and the power of Joe Paterno is the reason why this was able to carry on.
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 7/15/2012 4:08 PM
Bob Costas is the latest sportscaster to come and recommend the death penalty for PSU.
He was interviewed on Meet the Press this morning, from London, obviously a plug for their broadcasting the Olympic Games.






GO BOBCATS
OUBob
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Posted: 7/15/2012 5:02 PM
Pataskala,

I appreciate your arguement, but I can't agree with you. The "university" knowingly harboring a child rapist
 directly affects the relationship between the school and students.   


I can understand the NCAA not doing anything if they only have jurisdiction over matters that would give an entity a competitive advantage. I just hope that is not the case.
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Posted: 7/15/2012 5:07 PM
71 BOBCAT wrote:expand_more
Bob Costas is the latest sportscaster to come and recommend the death penalty for PSU.
He was interviewed on Meet the Press this morning, from London, obviously a plug for their broadcasting the Olympic Games.


Wow. Having someone like Costas call for that brings a little more credibility to the argument. Could this really happen??
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