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Topic: Sickening scandal at Penn State
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OhioCatFan
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Posted: 12/22/2011 10:06 PM
There is no worse crime in my book.  If he's guilty, I hope they throw the book at him. 
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Posted: 6/30/2012 5:38 PM
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/1/2012 6:38 PM
Boy, oh boy . . . this is devastating.  My first reaction was a trite, "Say it ain't so, Joe."  I'm left wondering what the NCAA will do when they finally make a judgement on this case.  There is no real precedent here, and their decision will itself set a precedent.  In that light, it seems to me the penalty is going to be very severe.  I think we may be looking at a death penalty.  They may opted for something less, but anything less really looks like a copout.  Compare these events with the infractions of SMU, which seem to pale by comparison.  
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Posted: 7/1/2012 8:20 PM
I'm more interested in what this means societally. I fear it won't mean much and we won't learn the lessons we need to learn.
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Posted: 7/1/2012 9:40 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Boy, oh boy . . . this is devastating.  My first reaction was a trite, "Say it ain't so, Joe."  I'm left wondering what the NCAA will do when they finally make a judgement on this case.  There is no real precedent here, and their decision will itself set a precedent.  In that light, it seems to me the penalty is going to be very severe.  I think we may be looking at a death penalty.  They may opted for something less, but anything less really looks like a copout.  Compare these events with the infractions of SMU, which seem to pale by comparison.  


I really hope Penn State does not recieve the death penalty.  I know these are horrible crimes..but I don't believe it's the NCAA's place to begin playing morality police.
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Posted: 7/1/2012 11:10 PM
OrlandoCat wrote:expand_more
Boy, oh boy . . . this is devastating.  My first reaction was a trite, "Say it ain't so, Joe."  I'm left wondering what the NCAA will do when they finally make a judgement on this case.  There is no real precedent here, and their decision will itself set a precedent.  In that light, it seems to me the penalty is going to be very severe.  I think we may be looking at a death penalty.  They may opted for something less, but anything less really looks like a copout.  Compare these events with the infractions of SMU, which seem to pale by comparison.  


I really hope Penn State does not recieve the death penalty.  I know these are horrible crimes..but I don't believe it's the NCAA's place to begin playing morality police.


This.  I don't see any justifiable reason to give Penn State the death penalty over this.  It had nothing to do with the students, it did not give them a competitive advantage.  The only thing these events were tied to Penn State were horrible things that happened to involve a retired assistant and the facilities.
Last Edited: 7/1/2012 11:11:03 PM by KyleWvr13
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Posted: 7/2/2012 12:21 AM
KyleWvr13 wrote:expand_more
Boy, oh boy . . . this is devastating.  My first reaction was a trite, "Say it ain't so, Joe."  I'm left wondering what the NCAA will do when they finally make a judgement on this case.  There is no real precedent here, and their decision will itself set a precedent.  In that light, it seems to me the penalty is going to be very severe.  I think we may be looking at a death penalty.  They may opted for something less, but anything less really looks like a copout.  Compare these events with the infractions of SMU, which seem to pale by comparison.  


I really hope Penn State does not recieve the death penalty.  I know these are horrible crimes..but I don't believe it's the NCAA's place to begin playing morality police.


This.  I don't see any justifiable reason to give Penn State the death penalty over this.  It had nothing to do with the students, it did not give them a competitive advantage.  The only thing these events were tied to Penn State were horrible things that happened to involve a retired assistant and the facilities.


And apparently covered up by the head coach, the AD, a VP and likely the president.  If that's not loss of institutional control I'm not sure what is.  As we learned in Watergate, the coverup is often worse than the crime itself, and in this case the crime was about as bad as it gets.  As the article pointed out, action in 2001, when they apparently knew about an earlier "first offense," would probably have ended JoePa's career earlier but would have shown institutional control.  A decade-long coverup involving high-ranking members of the university administration can't be swept under the rug at this stage of the game.  Severe penalties will have to be handed down or this will leave a stench that the NCAA may never recover from.  You just can't compartmentalize this to extricate the football program and the overall institution from these offenses of an admittedly rouge assistant coach, who was a former assistant coach during some of the time period in which the offenses took place.
Last Edited: 7/2/2012 12:25:59 AM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 7/2/2012 12:59 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
And apparently covered up by the head coach, the AD, a VP and likely the president.  If that's not loss of institutional control I'm not sure what is.  As we learned in Watergate, the coverup is often worse than the crime itself, and in this case the crime was about as bad as it gets.  As the article pointed out, action in 2001, when they apparently knew about an earlier "first offense," would probably have ended JoePa's career earlier but would have shown institutional control.  A decade-long coverup involving high-ranking members of the university administration can't be swept under the rug at this stage of the game.  Severe penalties will have to be handed down or this will leave a stench that the NCAA may never recover from.  You just can't compartmentalize this to extricate the football program and the overall institution from these offenses of an admittedly rouge assistant coach, who was a former assistant coach during some of the time period in which the offenses took place.


You raise some really good points, and these events clearly involved many people important people that SHOULD of done the right thing but did not.  But as far as I see it, while this is a lack of institutional control, this does not involve student athletes, at least not in a direct competitiveness sort of way, which is what the NCAA is concerned about.

SMU's boosters were handing out paychecks to the student athletes, encouraging top athletes to come to SMU and get paid, a clear competitive advantage.  Jim Tressel was made aware that his athletes were trading memorabilia for tattoos and other gifts, and he knew that he was letting ineligible players play, but he "ignored" it, creating a competitive advantage.

But the Penn State scandal did not create a competitive advantage at all.  I think having Sandusky being convicted 45 of 47 charges, totaling up to over 400 YEARS in prison is a clear enough message that Penn State took control of this situation once it was raised to the public's eye.  As far as a lack of institutional control, this involved ONLY staff members, not student athletes. I just don't see how the NCAA could justify giving the death penalty for that very reason.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 3:54 AM
KyleWvr13 wrote:expand_more
And apparently covered up by the head coach, the AD, a VP and likely the president.  If that's not loss of institutional control I'm not sure what is.  As we learned in Watergate, the coverup is often worse than the crime itself, and in this case the crime was about as bad as it gets.  As the article pointed out, action in 2001, when they apparently knew about an earlier "first offense," would probably have ended JoePa's career earlier but would have shown institutional control.  A decade-long coverup involving high-ranking members of the university administration can't be swept under the rug at this stage of the game.  Severe penalties will have to be handed down or this will leave a stench that the NCAA may never recover from.  You just can't compartmentalize this to extricate the football program and the overall institution from these offenses of an admittedly rouge assistant coach, who was a former assistant coach during some of the time period in which the offenses took place.


You raise some really good points, and these events clearly involved many people important people that SHOULD of done the right thing but did not.  But as far as I see it, while this is a lack of institutional control, this does not involve student athletes, at least not in a direct competitiveness sort of way, which is what the NCAA is concerned about.

SMU's boosters were handing out paychecks to the student athletes, encouraging top athletes to come to SMU and get paid, a clear competitive advantage.  Jim Tressel was made aware that his athletes were trading memorabilia for tattoos and other gifts, and he knew that he was letting ineligible players play, but he "ignored" it, creating a competitive advantage.

But the Penn State scandal did not create a competitive advantage at all.  I think having Sandusky being convicted 45 of 47 charges, totaling up to over 400 YEARS in prison is a clear enough message that Penn State took control of this situation once it was raised to the public's eye.  As far as a lack of institutional control, this involved ONLY staff members, not student athletes. I just don't see how the NCAA could justify giving the death penalty for that very reason.


I'll admit that I haven't followed this in minute detail.  And the truth about Penn State staff's involvement is still coming out.  But this is not about taking control of this once it hits the public eye.  This is about doing the right thing from the first moment.    The very reason to give their football program could be if this involved staff members.  I'm not saying death penalty is the right way to go.  But d.p. while giving the players freedom to transfer without sitting out any time might be reasonable.

This country's problems of all nature are significantly because people don't do the right thing.  They do the money and/or easy thing.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 9:28 AM
Penn State should receive sanctions for this.  When there was a murder cover up at Baylor....there were sanctions.  You can say this PSU scandal is outside of the NCAA's scope, but can you really justify banning OSU from bowl games for covering up tattoos and not for children??? You can say there is no competitive advantage gained, but I would argue that covering this up is a competitive advantage.  They attempted to save their image by covering this up, and part of saving that image was to ensure the Football program's prestige.  If you really want to get technical, some of these boys were in High School when these rapes occured, thus making them potential recruits.  If they are potential recruits, the NCAA should most certainly do something to protect their rights.  It stinks that the student athletes should have to suffer, but Penn State's actions need to be punished.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 12:47 PM
I don't think Baylor is a parallel situation, because there were NCAA violations separate and apart from the murder cover-up. I haven't seen that allegation with Penn State. It was most definitely a case of horrible judgment and cowardice, and those involved deserve punishment. But is the NCAA the institution to deliver that punishment? I'm not so sure.

I do think that, NCAA sanctions or not, the NCAA should grant all athletes in the entire athletic department the right to transfer without losing any eligibility or having to sit out a year. The sins committed are the sins of the entire institution, and if an athlete no longer wants to be associated with that institution, I think he or she should be able to make a clean break under these circumstances.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 1:01 PM
I would agree that the NCAA can not be a legal court, however, if a court does make a ruling like this the NCAA should punish the university.  After reading the CNN email report, it is fairly clear that high ranking Athletics Officials at PSU (Paterno included) were making decisions that jeopardized the well being of student athletes.  This scandal is hurting every school in some way shape or form.  I can see the argument that this is not the NCAA's job.  They are supposed to deal with amateurs, but if a program the methodically covered up a scandal in an attempt to save the reputation of their football program and subsequently be able to profit from this reputation......well then they must be punished.  In simple terms, PSU put their athletes in danger by allowing a man like Sandusky to be associated with the school and covering up allegations.  A inner-city athlete can lose his scholarship for selling a few items to have some spending cash, but a department faces nothing for this cover up?????
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Posted: 7/2/2012 1:58 PM
What the NCAA will need to decide regarding punishment, is whether this is a Penn State issue or a Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz, and Tim Curley one. Clearly the decisions those three men made to protect Sandusky were morally bankrupt ones. (And now we're starting to hear how much of the slime from this coverup is left on JoePa's legacy as well). Spanier, Schultz, and Curley should be (and will be) held accountable in our Civil Courts and probably in our Criminal Courts for their crimes.

Should Penn State be held unaccountable as well? I'm not so sure. The trustees at Penn State have reacted swiftly since last fall when this news broke. Don't forget, the reason that we have the information that we do today about Spanier, Schultz, and Graham is thanks mostly to a private investigation into the football program that they've contracted a former FBI agent to undertake. I'm not so sure that the NCAA has to come down hard on Penn State, but I am eagerly awaiting the chance to see our legal system go to work on Spanier, Schultz, and Curley. I think about it this way. Jerry Sandusky committed some horrible crimes, but at the end of the day psychologists would argue that he's a sick man who needs help (and to be locked away from society). What these 3 men did is almost worse in a way, knowingly allowing a monster like that to operate with impunity, putting children at risk for over a decade. 
Last Edited: 7/2/2012 2:00:31 PM by HeHateMiami
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Posted: 7/2/2012 2:23 PM
HeHate: The NCAA cracks down all the time on programs for the actions of their employees.  I agree that the legal system has to take its course first, but I think it makes the NCAA look bad is there are no sanctions.  In the common person's eye, it says a school get in trouble for boosters doing x y z, but nothing for what happened at PSU.  It may open up a big can of worms, but at the end of the day PSU faces no tangible penalty.  We all hate OSU, but should their program be held out of a bowl game when PSU is enjoying that amenity? 
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Posted: 7/2/2012 2:25 PM
HeHateMiami wrote:expand_more
What the NCAA will need to decide regarding punishment, is whether this is a Penn State issue or a Graham Spanier, Gary Schultz, and Tim Curley one. Clearly the decisions those three men made to protect Sandusky were morally bankrupt ones. (And now we're starting to hear how much of the slime from this coverup is left on JoePa's legacy as well). Spanier, Schultz, and Curley should be (and will be) held accountable in our Civil Courts and probably in our Criminal Courts for their crimes.

Should Penn State be held unaccountable as well? I'm not so sure. The trustees at Penn State have reacted swiftly since last fall when this news broke. Don't forget, the reason that we have the information that we do today about Spanier, Schultz, and Graham is thanks mostly to a private investigation into the football program that they've contracted a former FBI agent to undertake. I'm not so sure that the NCAA has to come down hard on Penn State, but I am eagerly awaiting the chance to see our legal system go to work on Spanier, Schultz, and Curley. I think about it this way. Jerry Sandusky committed some horrible crimes, but at the end of the day psychologists would argue that he's a sick man who needs help (and to be locked away from society). What these 3 men did is almost worse in a way, knowingly allowing a monster like that to operate with impunity, putting children at risk for over a decade. 


Its not just a question of whether or not Penn State, the institution, should be held accountable: its a question of who are the proper authorities to do the holding. If Penn State as an institution is to be punished for this, I'd argue that the courts (both civil and criminal) and the State of Pennsylvania are the proper authorities. In addition to criminal/civil charges against the school's administration, the school itself might also be sued in civil court (depending on how soverign immunity works in Pennsylvania) and could theoretically be indicted as a corrupt/criminal organization (though it won't be, and probably shouldn't be). Further, it can/should be held accountable by its charterer, the state of Pennsylvania. This could occur through the budget process or from a whole sale house-cleaning. I just don't see criminal wrongdoing on the part of university administrators being something that should fall under the NCAA's preview. 

If this does fall under the NCAA, then where does the line get drawn? Should Missouri face NCAA sanction because Gary Pinkel didn't get fired following his DUI? How about Texas Tech, should it be found that Mike Leech was fired without cause? How about us? Should OHIO face NCAA sanction for taking so long to get rid of Larry Nighswander (under logic mentioned earlier today, he had the potential to come into contact and abuse OHIO athletes, and failure to dismiss him could be argued to demonstrate a failure to protect them from his photography "studio", denoting a lack of institutional control)

EDIT: Sports Illustrated's Andy Staples (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/andy_staples/07/02/penn-state-jerry-sandusky-ncaa/index.html?eref=si_writers) agrees with me in a better written argument than I made here.
Last Edited: 7/2/2012 3:21:44 PM by mf279801
JSF
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Posted: 7/2/2012 3:28 PM
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 4:17 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


That is a ridiculous comment. The NCAA has no say in this. This is the courts jurisdiction. This has no precedent and the NCAA has no right to punish Penn State. What happened was horrible, but seriously? Banned from competition? 
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Posted: 7/2/2012 4:29 PM
Last Edited: 7/2/2012 4:40:07 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 7/2/2012 4:41 PM
ClevelandCat25 wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


That is a ridiculous comment. The NCAA has no say in this. This is the courts jurisdiction. This has no precedent and the NCAA has no right to punish Penn State. What happened was horrible, but seriously? Banned from competition? 


Sorry, but the NCAA has every right to have a say in this.  Like it or not, they are the governing body of college athletics, and the people involved in this situation work within college athletics.  There's no precedent, so the NCAA will take action to SET THE PRECEDENT.  The public will be watching intently on how they approach this.  If they don't do anything to Penn State, can you imagine the public outcry that would ensue?  This is beyond college athletics.  The courts will make their decision, but when you're dealing with something of this magnitude, you cannot ignore it.  
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Posted: 7/2/2012 4:52 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


I agree with most of this statement JSF. The question is...what can we hope to achieve by dropping an atomic bomb on Happy Valley? Perhaps the notion that all of this (football, athletics, tradition) is mutable and can vanish in an instance is powerful enough to permanently change the calculus of those in power.

I've come away from this thinking that people like Paterno and Snapier are completely void of the type of morality that we take for granted. And after looking at these emails, where any mention of the safety and welfare of these kids is completely missing, how could you not come to the same conclusion? All we can hope to do is to make such an example out of PSU that future Paternos and Spaniers are so frightened of the ramifications of their choices that they have no choice but to report such events. 


Last Edited: 7/2/2012 4:55:54 PM by Paul Graham
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Posted: 7/2/2012 5:08 PM
This clearly becomes an NCAA issue when these emails seem to point to the cover up being a tool to protect the legacy of PSU Football.
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Posted: 7/2/2012 8:28 PM
Tyler Charles wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


That is a ridiculous comment. The NCAA has no say in this. This is the courts jurisdiction. This has no precedent and the NCAA has no right to punish Penn State. What happened was horrible, but seriously? Banned from competition? 


Sorry, but the NCAA has every right to have a say in this.  Like it or not, they are the governing body of college athletics, and the people involved in this situation work within college athletics.  There's no precedent, so the NCAA will take action to SET THE PRECEDENT.  The public will be watching intently on how they approach this.  If they don't do anything to Penn State, can you imagine the public outcry that would ensue?  This is beyond college athletics.  The courts will make their decision, but when you're dealing with something of this magnitude, you cannot ignore it.  


Which is why the NCAA should stay out of this; it's beyond college athletics.  The NCAA has as much say in what happens with Sandusky et. all as say..the Columbus PD do.  I'm not saying what happned wasn't horrid, but this is in no way related to the students on the field - which is who the NCAA should be trying to protect.  To destroy a universities athletic programs (and to a greater extent the city of State College) over somebody who, at one time, was affiliated with the football team, but was acting under a different entity altogether, is a gross over step of what they are set up to do.  We have a court system in place for a reason, and as far as I can tell thoes responsible have received, are in the process of receiving, or will soon be receiving what they rightly deserve.

If anybody can point to a single bylaw of the NCAA that Penn State violated (in relation to this case), I will reconsider my position.

edit:  typos..I'm sure there are more
Last Edited: 7/2/2012 8:39:45 PM by OrlandoCat
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Posted: 7/3/2012 12:28 AM
OrlandoCat wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


That is a ridiculous comment. The NCAA has no say in this. This is the courts jurisdiction. This has no precedent and the NCAA has no right to punish Penn State. What happened was horrible, but seriously? Banned from competition? 


Sorry, but the NCAA has every right to have a say in this.  Like it or not, they are the governing body of college athletics, and the people involved in this situation work within college athletics.  There's no precedent, so the NCAA will take action to SET THE PRECEDENT.  The public will be watching intently on how they approach this.  If they don't do anything to Penn State, can you imagine the public outcry that would ensue?  This is beyond college athletics.  The courts will make their decision, but when you're dealing with something of this magnitude, you cannot ignore it.  


Which is why the NCAA should stay out of this; it's beyond college athletics.  The NCAA has as much say in what happens with Sandusky et. all as say..the Columbus PD do.  I'm not saying what happned wasn't horrid, but this is in no way related to the students on the field - which is who the NCAA should be trying to protect.  To destroy a universities athletic programs (and to a greater extent the city of State College) over somebody who, at one time, was affiliated with the football team, but was acting under a different entity altogether, is a gross over step of what they are set up to do.  We have a court system in place for a reason, and as far as I can tell thoes responsible have received, are in the process of receiving, or will soon be receiving what they rightly deserve.

If anybody can point to a single bylaw of the NCAA that Penn State violated (in relation to this case), I will reconsider my position.

edit:  typos..I'm sure there are more


The NCAA DOESN'T have a say in what happens with Sandusky, that's already been addressed, so you're correct there.  And you're not incorrect when you say the students had nothing to do with it.  

But when some of the abuses occurred in Penn State locker rooms, and he used his status within to community to do the things he did, the NCAA cannot ignore it.  This man was a representative of Penn State athletics, and therefore a representative of major collegiate athletics.  I can't name a single bylaw that Penn State violated, because if I'm not incredibly mistaken, this is the first time any thing like this has happened.  

You're willing to say that because there's no precedent for this happening, that the NCAA cannot choose to take a stance, and that it's tied to its "bylaws"?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.   

EDIT:  Punctuation marks.


Last Edited: 7/3/2012 12:29:22 AM by Bobcat110alum
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Posted: 7/3/2012 1:38 AM
Tyler Charles wrote:expand_more
This isn't an issue of morality police. We're talking about sustained, depraved, possibly institutionalized criminal, harmful activity. I wouldn't be opposed to suspending Penn State from all NCAA competition altogether.


That is a ridiculous comment. The NCAA has no say in this. This is the courts jurisdiction. This has no precedent and the NCAA has no right to punish Penn State. What happened was horrible, but seriously? Banned from competition? 


Sorry, but the NCAA has every right to have a say in this.  Like it or not, they are the governing body of college athletics, and the people involved in this situation work within college athletics.  There's no precedent, so the NCAA will take action to SET THE PRECEDENT.  The public will be watching intently on how they approach this.  If they don't do anything to Penn State, can you imagine the public outcry that would ensue?  This is beyond college athletics.  The courts will make their decision, but when you're dealing with something of this magnitude, you cannot ignore it.  


Which is why the NCAA should stay out of this; it's beyond college athletics.  The NCAA has as much say in what happens with Sandusky et. all as say..the Columbus PD do.  I'm not saying what happned wasn't horrid, but this is in no way related to the students on the field - which is who the NCAA should be trying to protect.  To destroy a universities athletic programs (and to a greater extent the city of State College) over somebody who, at one time, was affiliated with the football team, but was acting under a different entity altogether, is a gross over step of what they are set up to do.  We have a court system in place for a reason, and as far as I can tell thoes responsible have received, are in the process of receiving, or will soon be receiving what they rightly deserve.

If anybody can point to a single bylaw of the NCAA that Penn State violated (in relation to this case), I will reconsider my position.

edit:  typos..I'm sure there are more


The NCAA DOESN'T have a say in what happens with Sandusky, that's already been addressed, so you're correct there.  And you're not incorrect when you say the students had nothing to do with it.  

But when some of the abuses occurred in Penn State locker rooms, and he used his status within to community to do the things he did, the NCAA cannot ignore it.  This man was a representative of Penn State athletics, and therefore a representative of major collegiate athletics.  I can't name a single bylaw that Penn State violated, because if I'm not incredibly mistaken, this is the first time any thing like this has happened.  

You're willing to say that because there's no precedent for this happening, that the NCAA cannot choose to take a stance, and that it's tied to its "bylaws"?

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.   

EDIT:  Punctuation marks.




If the NCAA doesn't stick to its own stated mission statement and bylaws, then what purpose does the NCAA serve?  At some point, no matter how outragous something is, the NCAA has to stay within what the NCAA was designed to do...which does not include passing judgment or taking a stance on child sex offender cases. 

If they make a stance here, where do you draw the line?  Do they come down on any school that has somebody affiliated with a team do something illegal, or is there a certain level of 'illegal' that is to much?  5 (or so) years ago, members of the BYU football team were kicked out of school because of rape charges (later aquitted).  Should BYU have lost the football team for a year?  Should a DUI cost some scholarships? This is way to slippery a slope, and is WAY outside the scope of the NCAA.
DublinCat
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Posted: 7/3/2012 10:25 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=KyleWvr13][QUOTE=OhioCatFan]

This country's problems of all nature are significantly because people don't do the right thing.  They do the money and/or easy thing.


or the politically correct thing.  NAMBLA contributes significant money to political campaigns through socially accepted organizations.  Many of which have chapters on the PSU campus.  Some people just don't like to upset the apple cart and take the criticism you get when doing the right thing. 
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