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Topic: Sickening scandal at Penn State
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PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 2:25 PM
Paterno is all but done. The Harrisburg and Pittsburgh papers are calling for his resignation.

It's reportedly in the works per some reports.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 11/8/2011 2:30 PM
Thanks, PF, for the additional information.  Point #2, if it's shown to have relevance to this case, would take this from a horrid sex scandal to a complete soap opera. 
79DAD
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Posted: 11/8/2011 4:47 PM
I know that this is in poor taste, and I don't want to have fun at kids expense, but this is too good to pass up.

If an older woman that chases younger men is called a "cougar", would an old man that chases young boys be called a "Nittany Lion"?
Ohio69
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Posted: 11/8/2011 4:56 PM
79DAD wrote:expand_more
I know that this is in poor taste, and I don't want to have fun at kids expense, but this is too good to pass up.

If an older woman that chases younger men is called a "cougar", would an old man that chases young boys be called a "Nittany Lion"?


Good grief....  Have you no sense of decency?
PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 5:18 PM
Let's get this timeline clear. In '98, Sandusky is investigated by campus and state authorities. Even though he implicated himself during an intercepted telephone communication, charges were not brought. A year later, he's able to get a retirement package (no silly jokes please) that includes unfettered access to athletic facilities and professor emeritus status.

Let's get that timeline straight and consider the implications.
wellstoncat
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Posted: 11/8/2011 7:12 PM
So why not call forthe heads of  the police and officals that did not charge him then? Ohh wait i know because it no fun to call for someones job unless he is a national figure. Before you start running your yippers at me again All i'm saying is more than three  people knew but only those three are being charged/ raked over the coals. If the police knew and let him go then what more could have been done? Go ahead resume witch hunt thank you and good night
Athens
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Posted: 11/8/2011 7:49 PM
Ozcat wrote:expand_more

The real question is: how long until UncleWes petitions the Big 10 to remove Penn State and instill OU as their replacement?


I'll even laugh at that one because there is no way Ohio State would ever allow it. Ohio's research reputation would be at the very bottom of the Big Ten. Even the ACC is out of the question because of academics. Every school in the ACC is rated above Ohio except NC State and FSU. The Big XII though is a different story with WVU rated below OU in most rankings. WVU didn't have the academics to cut it in the ACC but was fine enough for the Big XII. Penn State leaving the Big Ten is inconceivable unless they continue to break the law. They'll clean the house of the athletics administration and clear out the Paterno staff. The next coach will have no prior Penn State connections. The NCAA won't impose a death penalty but I could see a bowl ban from this until the legal issues are sorted through.
PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 7:56 PM
wellstoncat wrote:expand_more
So why not call forthe heads of  the police and officals that did not charge him then? Ohh wait i know because it no fun to call for someones job unless he is a national figure. Before you start running your yippers at me again All i'm saying is more than three  people knew but only those three are being charged/ raked over the coals. If the police knew and let him go then what more could have been done? Go ahead resume witch hunt thank you and good night


Any of the people who knew probably should have suspected that the University Police had squelched the investigation or otherwise dropped the ball. I'm talking about the janitor and his colleagues, McQueary, McQueary's dad and Paterno. They should have proceeded to call the State Police. It remains unclear to me if McQueary helped initiate the 2010 grand jury investigation because his conscience bothered him, or if one of the victims did and McQueary saw the writing on the wall and came clean during the interviews. With Curley, Schultz, the former chief of police and the former county prosecutor, you have to wonder if they were fully complicit, bought off, threatened or just driven to cover things up. Take note that the charity Sandusky headed was a multimillion dollar organization. The lead detective from the 1998 investigation has declined to comment during the past few days.    

You're right if you're saying that this scandal encompasses more than just the football program, and Paterno shouldn't have to be the fall guy. The problem for him is that the "I'm old" defense would make more sense if he hadn't continued to work as the head coach of a major college football team. It will be interesting to see if the Pennsylvania and national media stay on this story in the sense of pushing for answers from the university president, the former chief of campus police, the lead detective in the 1998 investigation, the charity's directors and the county prosecutor's office.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 8:12 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
..LC, I think you need to read into some of this again. NO ONE told the police. A campus admin that oversees the campus police (and probably other organizations) is not the same as actually filing a report.

From their behavior, it is clear that they wanted to keep the "investigation" in-house. Which is why no one outside their little circle was ever informed. 

Even if it was a "he said/he said" thing...THATS NOT THEIR CALL TO MAKE. It's up to law enforcement to investigate the matter, not university representatives and football coaches. 

I can understand their apprehension in filing a report, given that the person in-question is a 30+ year friend. Still, it's not their decision, particularly when the safety of others is at stake.

I guess, to me, the question comes down to what role the person in question, who oversaw the campus police, normally took. In this case he apparently personally conducted the investigation, and decided not to pursue it. Is this the only time he ever personally conducted an investigation? Or, did he do so fairly often in major cases? If this was the only time he ever personally conducted an investigation, it adds to the appearance of a cover up. If he often personally investigated major charges, the appearance is exactly the opposite. If it wasn't unusual for him to conduct investigations, that lends credence to the view that the matter was investigated, and also to the opinion that indeed it WAS his call to make whether there was sufficient evidence for further action. Note that the presence of an earlier investigation by campus police of charges against Sandusky for similar events does make it appear more like a cover up, and less like an investigation.

I'm not a fan of Paterno, but I'm also not a fan of public lynchings. I can easily see why he thought he can done the right thing, and why he thought that the matter was being investigated properly. Not only was there an immediate investigation, but the investigation was conducted by none other than the highest ranking people, an indication that the charges were being treated seriously and promptly.

Comparisons to Enron miss the mark widely, unless the comparison is intended to imply that the AD and chief of police were also involved in child molestation. The problems in Enron started at or near the top, so reporting it to superiors was simply reporting to the perpetrators.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 8:33 PM
L.C., I think you still might not understand who this guy Schultz, the head of the department that overees the campus police, is.

He's not a cop. He's not the chief of police. He's a university administrator.

He would have no business conducting an investigation, and you're incorrect in stating that an investigation was conducted pursuant to the 2002 incident. Nobody even asked for the alleged victim's name.

One would think that one or more of these guys probably knew that Sandusky had been investigated in 1998 by campus police for the same kind of thing. And then nobody calls the police?  
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Posted: 11/8/2011 8:38 PM
Your answer implies an answer to my question, but doesn't directly answer it. Is this the only time Schultz ever conducted an investigation? Or, did he do so from time to time? Your answer implies that it was not something he normally did, but doesn't specifically say that. If he did not normally, or did not ever, conduct investigations, it certainly looks like a cover up.

To be clear, I'm less interested in his official title than I am in the role he routinely played.
Last Edited: 11/8/2011 8:45:47 PM by L.C.
PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 9:44 PM
Put it this way - if he ever took it upon himself to conduct a criminal investigation that was under the jurisdiction of University Police, it was outside the scope of his job duties and was inappropriate and illegal. 

From the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

"Mr. Schultz earned bachelor's and master's degrees in industrial engineering at Penn State and began work for the university in 1971, according to a biography on the school's website. He returned to work in an interim capacity in July, when his successor left the university."






 



 
L.C.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 10:11 PM
First of all, I have a degree in Industrial Engineering. While that isn't my line of work, I am quite certain that having a degree in Industrial Engineering does not make it illegal or inappropriate for a person to conduct investigations, so his educational background isn't really relevant. In the years between 1971 and 2002 I'm sure he could have learned a great deal to supplement his degree.

I'm sure that in time his specific job description, and the normal scope of his duties for the University will come out, and then we will have more to go on. Even then, though, the discussion here really isn't whether or not Schultz had the actual authority to conduct an investigation, but whether Paterno had reason to believe that he did. That is also a question that I can't answer.
PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 10:29 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
First of all, I have a degree in Industrial Engineering. While that isn't my line of work, I am quite certain that having a degree in Industrial Engineering does not make it illegal or inappropriate for a person to conduct investigations, so his educational background isn't really relevant. In the years between 1971 and 2002 I'm sure he could have learned a great deal to supplement his degree.

I'm sure that in time his specific job description, and the normal scope of his duties for the University will come out, and then we will have more to go on. Even then, though, the discussion here really isn't whether or not Schultz had the actual authority to conduct an investigation, but whether Paterno had reason to believe that he did. That is also a question that I can't answer.


Leaping lizards, you are having trouble getting this one!

What makes it illegal and inappropriate for him to do police work is that he's not a police officer. I included that tidbit about his background because I'm trying to explain to you that he's not a police officer.

Here's more, directly from Penn State's Web site:

"Gary C. Schultz, who retired from Penn State in 2009 after nearly 40 years of service, has been named interim senior vice president for Finance and Business while the University conducts a national search to fill the position ... Schultz served as senior vice president for finance and business from 1995 until his retirement and led the division that includes the offices of Human Resources, Physical Plant, University Police, Investment Management, Auxiliary and Business Services, Corporate Controller, University Budget, Legal Services and Commonwealth Campus Business Operations ... Schultz, who earned a bachelor's and master’s degree in industrial engineering from Penn State, began his career with the University in 1971 and through 1995 handled various administrative responsibilities related to business operations, finance and technology, before being named to the vice president role in 1995."

Schultz conducting a criminal investigation would be like a city council member, deputy mayor or member of a police commission conducting a criminal investigation in lieu of the municipal police. 

Just knowing his job title - let alone the job description given in his bio - is enough to infer that he is not a cop in any way, shape or form.
L.C.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 10:50 PM
Thank you. The job description was what I asked for to begin with. As I said before, what is important is what his job really was.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 10:58 PM
Any civil liability would hinge on any legal -- not moral -- duty to act.  That depends on what the law was back then, not today.

That said, I agree that the grad asst. really had the first moral duty to stop it.  When you see someone being attacked, the moral thing to do is to stop it.  Usually in a case like this, just making your presence known is enough to stop it.  If the grad asst. was somehow intimidated by Sandusky, there was likely a phone nearby to call the cops.  Reporting it to Paterno -- after the fact -- was useless.

As for Paterno's fate, the PSU heads really need to tread lightly here.  An indictment is an accusation; it's not a conviction, and Sandusky is still declaring his innocence (last I heard, anyway).  So there's been no crime proven, and thus nothing substantive (publicly, anyway) to base any wrongdoing on Paterno's part (he did follow procedure).  They'll need to get him out gracefully.  He'll have a friendly crowd this Saturday against Nebraska, but with trips to the Shoe and Wisconsin to finish the season, I doubt they (or maybe even he) will want him and the team subjected to the potential abuse he's likely to get there.  They likely will give him one last hurrah before the home crowd, but then turn it over to the assistants. 

Frankly, this is a sad way to end Paterno's magnificent career.  Unlike Bobby Bowden and dozens of other big-time coaches, you never heard anything major bad about the PSU program.  Either Joe Pa ran an incredibly clean program or it was well hidden.  Considering how difficult it is to cover stuff up, I tend to think it's the former.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 11:16 PM
The thing is, according to the indictment, Paterno never called Schultz. He only called Curley. A week and a half later, McQueary was called into a meeting with Curley and Schultz. Paterno was not present at that meeting. So the argument that Paterno notifified Schultz, whether he had police power or not, is baseless. Paterno did not even care enough to see it through to McQueary's meeting with Curley and Schultz. 
mf279801
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Posted: 11/9/2011 12:14 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
The thing is, according to the indictment, Paterno never called Schultz. He only called Curley. A week and a half later, McQueary was called into a meeting with Curley and Schultz. Paterno was not present at that meeting. So the argument that Paterno notifified Schultz, whether he had police power or not, is baseless. Paterno did not even care enough to see it through to McQueary's meeting with Curley and Schultz. 


Paterno wasn't a witness. Not only did he have no reason to be at the meeting with McQueary Curley & Schultz (whether it was an internal disciplinary sort of meeting or an official university police investigation doesn't matter on this point), but it would have been actively improper for him to be present: as a long time co-worker (and friendly acquaintance/friend) of Sandusky, Paterno's presence would have been improper given the apparent conflict-of-interest (long time head coach vs. a GA) and contributed even more to the appearance of a 'good-ole boy network' trying to sweep it under the rug. His presence, as the influential "old-man" but having nothing first hand to add, would have been improper duing this "witness statement" type of situation, particularily since Sandusky was at the time retired (i.e. Paterno was no longer his supervisor). Just my 2 cents. I am curious why the county prosecutor in 1999 didn't press charges against Sandusky.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 12:47 AM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
. I am curious why the county prosecutor in 1999 didn't press charges against Sandusky.


A prosecutor had previously brought Sandusky to a grand-jury testimony without charges being returned.

This whole thing reminds me of the Catholic scandal where the old Cardinals in charge were more worried about ruining the great careers of the accused pedophile priests than the lives of the youths. To me, it is "exactly" the same. Paterno was more concerned about protecting the reputation of Sandusky, Wow, such a great guy, so much more than these "throwaway, at-risk" youths. Funny thing is, a lot of this was going on at the same exact time the Catholic church was being exposed for its decades-long practice of shuffling molesters off to other parts of the country to avoid prosecution.

Didn't Paterno say tonight something like we pray for all our 16 grandchildren so we might want to now start praying for these kids, too. Of course, we didn't pray for them until it became public.

But hey, let's build a building! The Pope will think it's cool.

http://www.torbertmedia.com/ccm/2010/10/student-faith-center/

That's if, of course, you're economically fortunate enough to attend this Parish. If not, we can forward you to the Second Mile.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 8:01 AM
Mike, you make fantastic points.

I hesitate greatly to enter this fray. There is the caveat that we do not know the full story. But there is the undeniable truth that something awful happened and people who should have done better didn't.

Edmund Burke wrote (and the same is often attributed to Einstein as well): 

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”


He wrote that in the 1700s. It's nothing new. History has repeated itself. Mankind has proven time and time again its unfortunate ability to sit idly by as terrible things happen to the defenseless.

I'm fully confident that the people who failed to act in this instance are good people who exhibited the same weakness good people have exhibited for hundreds of years. This is not an excuse. It is an understanding.

I'm not fully confident that if I were to walk the same path, my choices would be different. I hope I would have that strength, but there are so many that were stronger than me who failed.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 8:42 AM
McQueary gets most or all of my wrath.  How can a full grown man see that and do anything other than immediately run in there, beat the living crap out of Sandusy, call the police and hold him down (if he is still alive) until they arrive.  Sorry but there is no argument to do anything other than that.  If you can leave a hopeless boy in that situation, you really have to question your character.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 9:40 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
McQueary gets most or all of my wrath.  How can a full grown man see that and do anything other than immediately run in there, beat the living crap out of Sandusy, call the police and hold him down (if he is still alive) until they arrive.  Sorry but there is no argument to do anything other than that.  If you can leave a hopeless boy in that situation, you really have to question your character.


What did McQueary see? I haven't read the grandjury report, but if he waited for 2 days before telling anyone and didn't intervene/call the police immediately, I've gotta think he didn't see a 10year old getting actively raped, it almost had to be something more in the realm of "hinkey/not quite right" but not 100% without question wrong (at least if McQueary is any kind of man, man being used in the red blooded American sense of the word).
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Posted: 11/9/2011 9:45 AM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
McQueary gets most or all of my wrath.  How can a full grown man see that and do anything other than immediately run in there, beat the living crap out of Sandusy, call the police and hold him down (if he is still alive) until they arrive.  Sorry but there is no argument to do anything other than that.  If you can leave a hopeless boy in that situation, you really have to question your character.


What did McQueary see? I haven't read the grandjury report, but if he waited for 2 days before telling anyone and didn't intervene/call the police immediately, I've gotta think he didn't see a 10year old getting actively raped, it almost had to be something more in the realm of "hinkey/not quite right" but not 100% without question wrong (at least if McQueary is any kind of man, man being used in the red blooded American sense of the word).


Here is the link to the indictment: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandus...

McQueary testified that he saw Sandusky and what appeared to be a 10-year-old boy having sex in a shower and he testified that both saw him. It's Victim 2 in the indictment. There is no excuse for what McQueary did.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 9:51 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
McQueary gets most or all of my wrath.  How can a full grown man see that and do anything other than immediately run in there, beat the living crap out of Sandusy, call the police and hold him down (if he is still alive) until they arrive.  Sorry but there is no argument to do anything other than that.  If you can leave a hopeless boy in that situation, you really have to question your character.


What did McQueary see? I haven't read the grandjury report, but if he waited for 2 days before telling anyone and didn't intervene/call the police immediately, I've gotta think he didn't see a 10year old getting actively raped, it almost had to be something more in the realm of "hinkey/not quite right" but not 100% without question wrong (at least if McQueary is any kind of man, man being used in the red blooded American sense of the word).


Here is the link to the indictment: http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandus...

McQueary testified that he saw Sandusky and what appeared to be a 10-year-old boy having sex in a shower and he testified that both saw him. It's Victim 2 in the indictment. There is no excuse for what McQueary did.


In that case then no, there is no excuse for what McQueary did.
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Posted: 11/9/2011 10:13 AM
Grobe's name is on the this "B List" to replace Paterno.

http://coachesbythenumbers.com/paterno-era-ends-whats-next-for-penn-state/
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