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Topic: Sickening scandal at Penn State
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Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/6/2011 3:08 PM
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News sources are reporting that former PSU Quarterback and current PSU WR coach/Recruiting Coordinator Mike McQueary is the grad assistant mentioned in grand jury testimony.

http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/mcqueary_mike00.html
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/6/2011 3:17 PM
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Brian Smith wrote:expand_more
Now that I think of it more, how do you see a guy raping a 10-year old and then LEAVE without doing something to stop him? Go grab a bat or a hammer and threaten to knock his head in. Do SOMETHING. I'm not advocating tooth-for-tooth vigilante justice, but you have to do something to stop it. You can't really want a job being a grad assistant enough to let that go. You just can't.

And I understand that organizations have it written in their worker's code of conduct to report to management, but it's kind of like if you work at Enron in the early 2000s. If you really want to blow the whistle, you're not going to tell Ken Lay that Enron is stealing people's money.


I agree, but I think it's pretty clear why none of these people (the GA, Paterno, the AD, etc...) showed an ounce of character or moral clarity. Their allegiance is to the Penn State Athletic Department and the Paterno legacy. They clearly cared very little for the safety of this child and any future child that would encounter Sandusky.

Their first and only priority was preventing a scandal. Which is why they banned him from bringing children on to campus but did nothing to prevent future rapes. Their message was clear: it's cool if you bone-down on ten year old kids Jerry, but just don't do it in the practice facility shower.


Ozcat
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Posted: 11/7/2011 3:27 PM
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I find the whole thing disgusting, although I wouldn't place blame on Paterno, even though he could/should have handled it differently.

The real question is: how long until UncleWes petitions the Big 10 to remove Penn State and instill OU as their replacement?
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/7/2011 3:50 PM
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Ozcat wrote:expand_more
although I wouldn't place blame on Paterno, even though he could/should have handled it differently.replacement?


why not? He did the absolute minimum possible. BARELY enough to avoid prosecution. Yet, no blame?
Bobcatbob
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Posted: 11/7/2011 3:50 PM
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Let's throw out the "Employee Handbook" for reporting misconduct here.  If Jim Tressel can lose his job over not reporting a lousy tattoo when he followed the book, then Joe has to go.

No one can be freed of the responsibility to report a crime as soon as you have knowledge of it and if you are reporting what was observed there can't be any question that a crime occurred, can there?

And what's with that statement "The allegations, if true....."?  You can bet that Joe's lawyer is already working on his defense.

I'll be the first to warn you that things aren't always as they appear from the outside but this one looks very, very bad.  Maybe it's only very bad, but still.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:14 PM
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Bobcatbob wrote:expand_more
Let's throw out the "Employee Handbook" for reporting misconduct here.  If Jim Tressel can lose his job over not reporting a lousy tattoo when he followed the book, then Joe has to go.

No one can be freed of the responsibility to report a crime as soon as you have knowledge of it and if you are reporting what was observed there can't be any question that a crime occurred, can there?

And what's with that statement "The allegations, if true....."?  You can bet that Joe's lawyer is already working on his defense.

I'll be the first to warn you that things aren't always as they appear from the outside but this one looks very, very bad.  Maybe it's only very bad, but still.


Jim Tressel falsified documents.  For all we know, Paterno may have followed university policy when he told his superiors.  There has to be at least one or two university HR folks lurking on here.  Anyone know what the university/departmental policy is here at OU on this sort of thing?  I know that the public schools have policies about reporting various types of abuse.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:27 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Let's throw out the "Employee Handbook" for reporting misconduct here.  If Jim Tressel can lose his job over not reporting a lousy tattoo when he followed the book, then Joe has to go.

No one can be freed of the responsibility to report a crime as soon as you have knowledge of it and if you are reporting what was observed there can't be any question that a crime occurred, can there?

And what's with that statement "The allegations, if true....."?  You can bet that Joe's lawyer is already working on his defense.

I'll be the first to warn you that things aren't always as they appear from the outside but this one looks very, very bad.  Maybe it's only very bad, but still.


Jim Tressel falsified documents.  For all we know, Paterno may have followed university policy when he told his superiors.  There has to be at least one or two university HR folks lurking on here.  Anyone know what the university/departmental policy is here at OU on this sort of thing?  I know that the public schools have policies about reporting various types of abuse.


Folks, let's just stop all the comparisons right now.  One has to do with NCAA violations. One has to do with the most despicable criminal acts known to man. This is apples and really really rotten oranges. I don't want to speculate and I truly hope that Joe P. comes out clean in all of this, but just the nature of what you've reported... well... do you just tell someone and forget about it? Are you sitting down to dinner with Mrs Paterno five years later and it suddenly pops in your head... "Hey, I wonder what happened with that whole child rape thing I reported a while back... hmmm".
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:29 PM
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Much of this story still needs to play out.  McQuerry told Paterno what he saw - what did he tell him? how much depth?

Paterno then told Sandusky's boss - the AD (Curly), the head of the campus police (Shultz) and, apparently the President - Spanier about the incident.

Curley and Schultz, met with the graduate assistant about a week and a half later, and was told what he had witnessed.   As the DA points out, “Despite a powerful eyewitness statement about the sexual assault of a child, this incident was not reported to any law enforcement or child protective agency, as required by Pennsylvania law,” Kelly said in a news release. “Additionally, there is no indication that anyone from the university ever attempted to learn the identity of the child who was sexually assaulted on their campus or made any follow-up effort to obtain more information from the person who witnessed the attack firsthand.”

Instead, Kelly said Curley and Schultz agreed that Sandusky would be barred from bringing any Second Mile children into the football building, and passed that message onto Jack Raykovitz, who is currently president and CEO of the Second Mile.  Penn State President Graham Spanier, Kelly said in the news release, reviewed and approved the ban without any further inquiry.

That is where the story stands right now.  If it is true, Paterno went to Sandusky's boss and the head of the campus police (at PSU, there is a true campus police force/precinct - not rent a cops) who interviewed the eye witness.

Everyone wants Paterno to have circled back and pressed the issue.  Sounds like if he had (or when he did) he would have been told it appeared to be not as serious as implied.  He went to the administration and the head of the on campus police - who have jurisdiction. 

Not sure Paterno could have done much more - that said, the whole story will play out when McQueery tells all.
Last Edited: 11/7/2011 4:31:03 PM by cc-cat
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:37 PM
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I think you're right cc cat...so I guess the million dollar question is: what did the GA tell Paterno?

Are we to believe that the GA did not tell Paterno the full extent of what he saw? What would be his motives in doing that?
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:44 PM
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Don't know.  So you got a 22 year old GA telling him one thing and I'm sure his friend of 35 years telling him another thing.  At least he said I'm not playing judge and jury here and went to the AD and campus cops.  That said, he has downplayed what McQueary told him - not specifics, etc.  If McQueary comes out and says he told Paterno song and verse.  Then Paterno will fall.  McQueary has a lot to lose in this situation as well.  His name has been tossed around for MAC head coaching jobs.
Last Edited: 11/7/2011 4:44:52 PM by cc-cat
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/7/2011 4:49 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
Don't know.  So you got a 22 year old GA telling him one thing and I'm sure his friend of 35 years telling him another thing.  At least he said I'm not playing judge and jury here and went to the AD and campus cops.  That said, he has downplayed what McQueary told him - not specifics, etc.  If McQueary comes out and says he told Paterno song and verse.  Then Paterno will fall.  McQueary has a lot to lose in this situation as well.  His name has been tossed around for MAC head coaching jobs.


To me, McQueary is absolutely at fault. While there may be some question as to what he told Paterno, there is no question what he saw. Because of his deep pockets, I don't know how there's not a civil lawsuit against Paterno out of this. His son is his lawyer and is already rolled out the Seinfeld "I'm old" defense. He says Paterno was 75 then and 84 now and couldn't conceive of the actions being described. Paterno may end up worse than without a job, his entire legacy could be shamed.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:03 PM
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I guess I see this differently. From the facts given, Paterno referred this matter to not one, but two places - his superior, and the appropriate campus police. They, in turn, interviewed the witness. It doesn't say whether they also interviewed the boy - hopefully they did. Paterno no doubt was aware that the people he reported it to did not drop the matter, but conducted an independent investigation. Therefore he had every reason to believe that the matter had been addressed. Considering that the investigation stopped there, it seems that the police concluded there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. To me, once the police and his boss take over the investigation, I don't see how Paterno has any additional responsibility. If there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, he can't talk about it publicly, or he could be sued for slander, so he probably just goes on about his job.
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:14 PM
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I see it as a criminal issue not a workplace issue. Why didn't McQueary or Paterno call the police?

Paterno told two administrators, I don't see how you can spin that as him having told the police. If he had called the Campus Police or the State College Police, I would have considered that as having called the police. But he told Athletic Director Tim Curley and Gary Schultz, the school's VP of Finance and Operations. Just because the Campus Police might fall under the Operations org structure doesn't make Schultz the police. 
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:17 PM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
I guess I see this differently. From the facts given, Paterno referred this matter to not one, but two places - his superior, and the appropriate campus police. They, in turn, interviewed the witness. It doesn't say whether they also interviewed the boy - hopefully they did.


Appears they did not nor did they take any effort to try.  But to your point, that is not a Paterno responsibility.  I did not think about the implication of him pushing it - e.g., lawsuit for defamation of character, etc. 

Also agree with above - what is up with McQueary?  If he saw what is reported and doesn't pick up a baseball bat...

I'm sure that is the question he was first asked and if he said, "well what if I misread it..." then the situation gets foggy.

My guess is Schultz and Curry take the fall.  Good chance Paterno is untouched with the, "I asked McQueary what he saw and when he told me I asked him why he didn't pick up a bat. He said he was scared of ruining his life if he misread it all.  So I referred it all to the AD , the campus police and the President.  They later informed me it was a he said/he said situation.  I could only forward the concern of my GA - I couldn't play judge and jury."

The fact his statement didn't even go this direction raises flags - but assume it will.

As a PA native and PSU /Paterno fan - all very disturbing.  
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:20 PM
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In his position, Shultz was the defacto Police Commissioner - which is why he handled the initial investigation.  Obviously handled in the interest of PSU and not the boy.  But I can't fault Paterno for going to the guy that can tell the campus police - "get on this."
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:23 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
In his position, Shultz was the defacto Police Commissioner - which is why he handled the initial investigation.  Obviously handled in the interest of PSU and not the boy.  But I can't fault Paterno for going to the guy that can tell the campus police - "get on this."


No, he wasn't. But I can understand why people are trying to spin in that way. There is also no evidence that Paterno tried to follow up in any way. And, according to his lawyer son, he never talked to Sandusky about the incident. 
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:28 PM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
I guess I see this differently. From the facts given, Paterno referred this matter to not one, but two places - his superior, and the appropriate campus police. They, in turn, interviewed the witness. It doesn't say whether they also interviewed the boy - hopefully they did. Paterno no doubt was aware that the people he reported it to did not drop the matter, but conducted an independent investigation. Therefore he had every reason to believe that the matter had been addressed. Considering that the investigation stopped there, it seems that the police concluded there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. To me, once the police and his boss take over the investigation, I don't see how Paterno has any additional responsibility. If there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, he can't talk about it publicly, or he could be sued for slander, so he probably just goes on about his job.


LC, I think you need to read into some of this again. NO ONE told the police. A campus admin that oversees the campus police (and probably other organizations) is not the same as actually filing a report.

From their behavior, it is clear that they wanted to keep the "investigation" in-house. Which is why no one outside their little circle was ever informed. 

Even if it was a "he said/he said" thing...THATS NOT THEIR CALL TO MAKE. It's up to law enforcement to investigate the matter, not university representatives and football coaches. 

I can understand their apprehension in filing a report, given that the person in-question is a 30+ year friend. Still, it's not their decision, particularly when the safety of others is at stake.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:31 PM
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Based on what I have read, Paterno did not refer it to campus police. My understanding is that he referred the issue to his boss, the AD, who brought in the VP of Finance, who happens to oversee the campus police. I suspect the VP of Finance does not have the proper training in investigatory practices(questioning of witnesses, etc) that his campus police staff does. Regardless....as a Penn State fan and admirer of Paterno well before I became a Bobcat, this whole mess is very distressing.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:36 PM
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The campus police reported to him - I have no problem with Paterno not going to some beat cop, but to the guy that overseas the department.  Paterno got the GA together with the AD and Schutz.  If they are going to cover it up, I'm not sure it is his responsibility to forward it.  The key issue is still what McQueary told and who he told it to.
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:47 PM
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Follow-Up link about my other post in regards to Sandusky interviewing twice for the UVA job a year after retiring.  He had proposed to UVA Al Golden as the defensive coordinator and Colts Coach Jim Caldwell as the  offensive coordinator.  Caldwell had been the  OC at Penn State prior to becoming HC at Wake and then being replaced by Grobe that same year.

The fact that he was looking for a job a year after "retiring" seems to validate the numerous stories that he was pushed out of Penn State. Unless I was forced out, I would have kept my position until I got the head coaching job I was hoping for.

http://www.dailypress.com/sports/teel-blog/dp-teel-time-former-penn-state-football-assistant-charged-with-sexual-assault-almost-coached-uva-maryland-20111107,0,2945793.story
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Posted: 11/7/2011 5:49 PM
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Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
I guess I see this differently. From the facts given, Paterno referred this matter to not one, but two places - his superior, and the appropriate campus police. They, in turn, interviewed the witness. It doesn't say whether they also interviewed the boy - hopefully they did. Paterno no doubt was aware that the people he reported it to did not drop the matter, but conducted an independent investigation. Therefore he had every reason to believe that the matter had been addressed. Considering that the investigation stopped there, it seems that the police concluded there was insufficient evidence to prosecute. To me, once the police and his boss take over the investigation, I don't see how Paterno has any additional responsibility. If there isn't enough evidence to prosecute, he can't talk about it publicly, or he could be sued for slander, so he probably just goes on about his job.


LC, I think you need to read into some of this again. NO ONE told the police. A campus admin that oversees the campus police (and probably other organizations) is not the same as actually filing a report.

From their behavior, it is clear that they wanted to keep the "investigation" in-house. Which is why no one outside their little circle was ever informed. 

Even if it was a "he said/he said" thing...THATS NOT THEIR CALL TO MAKE. It's up to law enforcement to investigate the matter, not university representatives and football coaches. 

I can understand their apprehension in filing a report, given that the person in-question is a 30+ year friend. Still, it's not their decision, particularly when the safety of others is at stake.


Nor is it Paterno's call to.  Remember, he saw nothing.  He got the GA together with the AD and Schultz.  He steps too much further in an he would be accused of working it for his old friend.  I agree his bad move was not instricting McQueary to contact the town cops.  But once he turned it up the ladder to the AD and Schultz, he was somewhat tied to their movement - even as powerful as he is.  Again, everything is speculation until McQeary talks. 
Football Jim
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Posted: 11/7/2011 10:35 PM
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For the most part I am a Paterno fan, but it is sickening that Paterno didn't follow up with a few phone calls to see if the matter was being investigated. I know it is not his job, but for humanities sake you have to protect the children, protect your reputation, protect your program. It seems to me Joe really didn't care enough to protect anything.
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Posted: 11/8/2011 1:43 PM
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In the grand jury presentment section regarding Victim 2, it says (emphasis mine), "The next morning, a Saturday, the graduate assistant telephoned Paterno and went to Paterno's home, where he reported what he had seen ... Paterno testified that the graduate assistant was very upset ... Paterno ... reported to (Curley, the AD) that the graduate assistant had seen Jerry Sandusky in the Lasch Building showers fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy."

When Curley, Schultz (the university operations administrator) and Spanier (the university president) were questioned by the grand jury in 2010 or 2011, they soft-pedaled what the grad assistant (McQueary) had reported. They used words like "inappropriate" and "horsing around" instead of molestation, rape or sodomy.

McQueary's testimony was deemed "extremely credible" by the grand jury. Meanwhile, Curley and Schultz were charged with perjury.

Reading the presentment carefully (and reading between the lines a bit), it would appear that Paterno knew how serious the 2002 incident was and that a felony had been committed. I don't understand this talk about how he was constrained by slander or defamation of character issues regarding Sandusky. There was nothing preventing Paterno from going directly to the police.

EDIT: Paterno has issued a statement denying he knew specifics of the 2002 incident.
Last Edited: 11/8/2011 2:00:34 PM by PutnamField
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Posted: 11/8/2011 2:14 PM
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 This is an instance where several people elevated the best interests of the Penn State football brand above the best interests of a child, roughly age 10, who was witnessed being raped. 

Say what you will about Paterno's legal obligations, or the chain of command, but not a single person affiliated with the Penn State football program or Penn State University made an effort to even identify who this child was, and make sure he wasn't subjected to further abuse. That is absolutely sickening, and anything short of the entire staff being dismissed and Penn State starting from scratch is unacceptable. 

 

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Posted: 11/8/2011 2:22 PM
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More details surrounding this case that haven't been discussed in this thread:

1. Sandusky had been investigated by University Police and state child-welfare authorities in 1998 for a shower incident that is now included in the indictment. Sandusky admitted wrongdoing at that time and said he wished he were dead. For some reason, the county prosecutor decided not to pursue charges, and the University Police director told the lead detective to close the investigation.

2. The former county prosecutor who didn't charge Sandusky, Ray Gricar, disappeared in 2005. His laptop was found in the Susquehanna River shortly after he vanished with its hard drive removed. His car was nearby. The hard drive was eventually found, but its data was unrecoverable, according to the FBI. Gricar, according to Bellefonte (Pa.) Police, had searched on his home computer for how to destroy laptop data just before his disappearance. His brother had died during the 1990s in what was ruled a suicide after his body was found in the Great Miami River in Ohio, so naturally there was speculation that both brothers had some kind of riparian death wish. However, a friend of the former prosecutor who is also the DA in a nearby county, Robert Buehner, has said that he thinks Ray Gricar was murdered and that there was information on the hard drive that somebody was concerned about. Buehner does not think Gricar's disappearance is related to the Sandusky case - at least that's what he's saying right now.

 

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