Monroe won't understand this post.

Of course the argument is absurd.  But, the argument having been joined, I'll take the team that had two victories and lost in OT to a traditional power when it counted over the team that had no victories and lost to a lesser light.

It's absolutely true that NCarolina was worlds better than us.  Heck, they crushed us on the boards 68-30.  So, by the logic of others, we must've lost that game by 60.  The actual score results of that game should be disregarded because the all-knowers have spoken.

I do apologize for having the WRONG OPINION.


By the way, ozcat, I've had pretty fair success by making my own judgments.  Sometimes I go with the crowd, sometimes not.  But I'm rarely swayed by 'everyone thinks so.'

Well, Ohio finished in the top 16 in the only poll that really matters and Duke and Missouri did not.  I'll take on-the-court or on-the-field results over mythical rankings any day of the week.  If you want to label it irrational and pin-headed you're more than welcome; it's a free country and you have a right to be wrong and to express those feelings.

Fair enough.  We were a better tournament team than Duke.  I don't think that's really a question.  But I'm curious if you think we were a better team than Duke based on the overall body of work, not just for a few games.  Put us in the ACC or put Duke in the MAC.  How do you think that would have turned out?

I seperated these posts because I'm pretty long winded.  As to the original topic itself, I don't want to play Alabama, LSU, Florida State, or Oregon.  We would not fare well at all.  But if it was between playing an obviously (based on body of work) better team than us in the BCS or winning a Bowl game that will mean nothing in two years, the choice is obvious.

If we get to the BCS, the final score will be an afterthought to me.  What I want to see is our players going out and executing to the best of their abilities with few mistakes and the coaches doing everything they can to put our guys in a position to win.  If we're beaten by superior speed or size, then fine.  It happens.  But if we get an invite to the BCS, there is NO way we turn it down.  That is the level we're shooting for.  If we don't get an invite to the bigger conferences, our only option is to raise the profile of the MAC.  If we can sell the opportunity to play on the big stage to recruits, it would be huge.

It'd be an interesting argument for sure.  We would have been better on that night, there would be no question there. 

Would we beat them several times?  It's hard to say.  Some teams are better equiped to deal with things than others.  Rich Rod's system at West Virginia was good because they could dictate tempos of games and score a lot of points.  His defense was a 3 man front that kept teams from beating you with speed of their own.  Problem was that in the Big Ten, the offensive schemes tore Michigan to pieces because they couldn't stop a running game to save their lives.  My point:  a team may have better athletes at the skill positions, lines, special teams, or what have you, but some matchups will beat others easily. 

My answer (as they often are) lies somewhere in the gray area:  if we won, I'd say we were the better team that night.  Were we a better team than them overall?  If we outmuscled and outran them, then definantly.  If we beat them because of Xboxish-level insanity play calling (see Boise State/Oklahoma,) then the argument would be a little harder for me to make outright.  And one other thing to consider:  whether we admit it or not, luck can go a long way too.

all this talk about 'is this team better than that team?' and 'what are the determining factors?' and etc... were losing sight of the main point:

Ozcat believes that Ohio is an inherently inferior program and will always be one, and that fact about us is charming to him. That's the way he likes it and he doesn't want it to change. He roots for Ohio to be successful the way rich people cheer for poor people to get off welfare, he doesn't want the poor to one day become successful enough to join his country club, he just wants them to be good enough to get a job making his meals, cleaning his house and mowing his lawn.

he believes in Jim Crow for college athletics and yet fancies himself as someone who would march with us in Selma. He thinks we have it made with our own teams and our own water fountains and our own lunch counters, and he'll even say hi to us if he sees on the street, but he'll be damned if one of us were to ever try to date his daughter.

so whenever we start talking about moving up Ozcat has to come along and remind us that us folks is actin all uppity and we's best be watchin what we's sayin. It offends him that we should dare be so greedy as to want more than the crumbs we already have. He tries to tell us that he's just looking out for our own good, and he's just being realistic, and he doesn't want to see us get hurt. But what he doesn't tell us is his concern for what would happen if we actually achieved that level of success. What would that do to his people?

So the real question, Bobcat fans is this- Should we even bother with believing that we could one day elevate the level of our program or are we fools for thinking we can ever be better than what we are right now?

Continuous improvement should be everyone's goal.

There is honor in the struggle.


-john

Well said PP.

I think this is my biggest gripe with Ohio State fans.  Most of them think that there was and is and ever shall be only one football program in Ohio  amen.  Many of these hyper fans are my relatives so I know from whence I speak.  In fact at a late Ohio game in Athens they attended it with me and even watching OUr team win were making comments like......good for the MAC.....will never ever match Ohio State.

No one questions the basketball program's chances to get better......of course the sweet 16 and a shoulda beat NC game doesn't hurt. UC has beat OSU on the national stage in basketball.  After watchin OSU play football this year I am not impressed with their top ten rating.....ask me  after the MSU game....maybe they'll surprise me.

The bottom line is that we can elevate the football program.  It won't be easy.  Soon getting the indoor practice facility will  help.  Keeping Frank will help.  Beating teams like Penn State has helped. Things to do include improving Peden and keeping the 4 star recruits. We got some last year but academics got in the way. One sign of us having arrived is the keeping of 4 star recruits.  One other plus has been the 110...and attendance keeps growin.

We are elevating.

Perimeter--That is a very fine post.  Really imaginative and well-reasoned.  I can't believe that anyone would disagree with you.  But even those who disagree with you should appreciate the smarts behind your post.

This is not random sampling.  This is a statistical universe of one game at a time.  it's basically not probability statistics but more like an operational definition.  You win a game in the tournament and you advance.  You lose and you go home.  If you win you are better than the teams that lose.  If it was a double elimination tournament, things get more complex.  In Ohio's CWS appearance we beat USC, the eventual national champion.  So, even though we beat them head-to-head, they were a better than Ohio because that's the way the rules were written.

Barack? Is that you?