Ohio Football Topic
Topic: It's Not Frank
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TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 11/21/2013 4:39 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.
How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 4:58 PM
Hmm...I think that the whole point of this thread is the recent dreadful performance.  As in "recent."

If you are not able to discern that it's the recent performance that is 97% of the topic here, then please do a google search for some place where you can go to get your M.O.

Your comment is simply not a legitimate attempt to engage.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 4:59 PM
The Situation wrote:expand_more

This is the only thing I have an issue with. We should expect Frank to make decisions, uncharateristic of his life's work or not.

Why?

What evidence do you have you that we should expect coaches to make uncharacteristic decisions?

Where is there evidence of other coaches stopping on a dime and switching gears after decades in the business?

(I do not consider a coach establishing the run under center and later establishing the run from the shotgun as changing gears.)

I understand that I come off as over-aggressive but I assure you this is not a rhetorical question.



Because that's his job as the head coach. And I actually do consider the offensive changes he made a major decision. He could've stood pat with the single back sets and ran the option all day, but he didn't, he changed. A lot of head coaches wouldn't do that.

As far as other examples, Head Coaches fire assistants all the time. Or change offensive/defensive philosphies. That's the point I was trying to make. Heck, even you said he'll fire Albin. We disagree on why (I believe you said to save his job, which I don't think is in jeopardy at the moment), but we do agree that some type of change is needed. Right?

You're fine with being over-agressive. I think's that's the sentiment of this entire board. The team has underachieved and it's frustrating.
Last Edited: 11/21/2013 5:00:16 PM by GoCats105
Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/21/2013 5:29 PM
TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.


How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.


Solich has operated in a terrible era in the MAC East. Grobe not only played more difficult OOC schedules, but he had to compete against strong Miami and Marshall teams.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 6:01 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.


How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.


Solich has operated in a terrible era in the MAC East. Grobe not only played more difficult OOC schedules, but he had to compete against strong Miami and Marshall teams.

That is overlooked how easy the East has been. Solich has brought facility to the program but let's face it recruiting hasn't been what was hoped by this point after 9 seasons. Very few recruits have BCS offers, not unlike Knorr. The school over the last 10-15 has shed the rap of a place that is difficult to win at but that is mainly the effect of increased resources directed toward it over brilliant coaching. Frank is the kind of guy I could see if he doesn't have a good 2014 and the cupboard looks bare might hang it up after 10 seasons and stick around in a fundraising role rather than risk muddying his record at the university. That way it gives Ohio a head start on finding that next level coach that can get this program a MAC championship.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 11/21/2013 8:04 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.


How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.


Solich has operated in a terrible era in the MAC East. Grobe not only played more difficult OOC schedules, but he had to compete against strong Miami and Marshall teams.


That is overlooked how easy the East has been. Solich has brought facility to the program but let's face it recruiting hasn't been what was hoped by this point after 9 seasons. Very few recruits have BCS offers, not unlike Knorr. The school over the last 10-15 has shed the rap of a place that is difficult to win at but that is mainly the effect of increased resources directed toward it over brilliant coaching. Frank is the kind of guy I could see if he doesn't have a good 2014 and the cupboard looks bare might hang it up after 10 seasons and stick around in a fundraising role rather than risk muddying his record at the university. That way it gives Ohio a head start on finding that next level coach that can get this program a MAC championship.
I agree that he is considering retirement. Doesn't his contract run out at the end of this year?

Even though we aren't getting top notch recruits these past couple years we never really have. I think Franks coaching makes the players what they are.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 11/21/2013 8:19 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Hmm...I think that the whole point of this thread is the recent dreadful performance. As in "recent."

If you are not able to discern that it's the recent performance that is 97% of the topic here, then please do a google search for some place where you can go to get your M.O.

Your comment is simply not a legitimate attempt to engage.
My comment is not legitimate. You are talking about firing Frank....

and as for the whole idea of recent performances how can we not look at the big picture? I think that has a big impact on whether or not you want to keep a coach. Not to mention if you look at recent performances can we really complain. Is 6-6 really that awful?? If you consider last year recent which I do would you consider that awful?? Beating Penn State and getting ranked in the top 25. Is that something we should be upset about. Not to mention the second bowl win in school history. Only the 6th time we have ever been to a bowl I might add. and the forth bowl appearance under solich. Only two other times have we ever been to a bowl before solich so I don't know how we can call for his head when he makes us bowl eligible year after year. What do you not understand about how bad we were before solich. If you would go back 15 years before we had solich and look at where the program was at and how nobody went to the games and nobody even cared about Ohio football you would be so happy about where we are now. I honestly can't comprehend how anyone can want him gone it makes zero sense. The only argument that even has a negative way on how he has performed would be his handling of TT. but lets be honest its not like Vick has done any better when he was in and hasn't shown any more fire then TT so why would he sub TT not mention TT has so much more potential to do well than vick I don't really blame him for that decision so again really no reason for anyone to be upset and call for Franks head. The man is a legend and is one of the greatest head football coaches in history
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 11/21/2013 9:39 PM
TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.
How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.
Jim Grobe made 1/3 the money and had 10% of the resources, and actually played a few non-conference teams. Grobe also did not coach against such an unbalanced schedule who provided of dodging the top league teams. When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 9:40 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.


How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.


Solich has operated in a terrible era in the MAC East. Grobe not only played more difficult OOC schedules, but he had to compete against strong Miami and Marshall teams.
+1
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 11/21/2013 9:57 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.
How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.
Jim Grobe made 1/3 the money and had 10% of the resources, and actually played a few non-conference teams. Grobe also did not coach against such an unbalanced schedule who provided of dodging the top league teams. When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.
Maybe they're not worse and we're just better....

Even if they are better I could really care less. Solich has done great things for us that nobody else has. and if you think after a 6-6 season then go ahead keep calling for his head. I'll make sure to bring this thread up back to the limelight after we go under 500 for the next 5 years and don't make a bowl. I'm sure any other MAC school would be happy to pick up solich
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Posted: 11/21/2013 10:24 PM
TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
Huh??--If guys aren't getting the job done, then Coach's age or career status are absolutely not an excuse for not making needed changes.

I just don't get the view of those who a) can't get a reasonably objective view of reality and/or b) not make decisions based on the proper criteria/with the proper goal in mind..


No one likes to see people fired. But the criteria is success, not keeping people employed despite their subpar performance.
How in the world can you call his performance subpar? This is ridiculous. Look at what he has done for us. Our last good coach was Jim Grobe. Who's record here was 33-33. He left for wake forest after his 5th year. On an off year Frank has match Jim's win % and yet we are unhappy. 6-6 is nothing to be ashamed of. This is not OSU this is not MICH, this is not Alabama. this is OHIO. a MAC school. to go 6-6 with a MAC team on a down year and call for a coaches head is absurd. Nobody will help us achieve OUr goals better then Solich.... NOONE. if you don't believe me look at the history of our schools football team. We have been terrible.
Jim Grobe made 1/3 the money and had 10% of the resources, and actually played a few non-conference teams. Grobe also did not coach against such an unbalanced schedule who provided of dodging the top league teams. When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.
Maybe they're not worse and we're just better....

Even if they are better I could really care less. Solich has done great things for us that nobody else has. and if you think after a 6-6 season then go ahead keep calling for his head. I'll make sure to bring this thread up back to the limelight after we go under 500 for the next 5 years and don't make a bowl. I'm sure any other MAC school would be happy to pick up solich
A. I never called for anyone's head, just brought a couple of facts to the table.

B. the EAST is NO WHERE near where it was when Jim Grobe was coaching in Athens.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 11/21/2013 10:28 PM
true but others have
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Posted: 11/21/2013 10:36 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
...When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.

Since our memories can play tricks on us, I thought I'd check your facts. Sagarin's ratings online only go back to 1998, but here is the average for the MAC East excluding Ohio, year by year:
1998 - 60.62 (no Buffalo, includes Marshall)
1999 - 59.70 (includes Marshall)
2000 - 54.30 (includes Marshall)
2001 - 65.80 (includes Marshall)
2002 - 61.88 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2003 - 65.99 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2004 - 57.64 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2005 - 60.13
2006 - 57.53
2007 - 55.94 (includes Temple)
2008 - 61.77 (includes Temple)
2009 - 60.29 (includes Temple)
2010 - 54.49 (includes Temple)
2011 - 60.01 (includes Temple)
2012 - 56.39 (includes U.Mass)
2013 - 57.07 (includes U.Mass)

Average 1998-2000=58.20
Average 2001-2004=62.83
Average 2005-2013=58.31

There was not much difference between the Solich and Grobe years, but the Knorr years were "beast". Maybe that was part of the reason for the big drop in his first year - look at the jump in the competition. BG, Kent, Miami, Buffalo, and Marshall were all much, much better in 2001 than in 2000.

BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
B. the EAST is NO WHERE near where it was when Jim Grobe was coaching in Athens.

Here is a team by team comparison between 2000 and 2013:

                2000               2013
Miami          60.65              38.76
Buffalo        41.18              72.77
Kent           42.15              54.54
Akron          61.70              54.11
BG             51.45              75.23
Marshall       63.86                 na
U.Mass            na              47.00
Average        54.30              57.07

The primary difference is that the two two teams are much better this year than in 2000. Note: Miami in 1996 was rated 75.79, about the same as BG is this year, and Marshall in 1999 was 87.74, much better than anyone is now. BG was in the 70s in 2001-2002 during Knorr, and Miami was 72.57 in 2002, and 89.14 in 2003, again, under Knorr.
Last Edited: 11/21/2013 10:47:41 PM by L.C.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 11:04 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.

Since our memories can play tricks on us, I thought I'd check your facts. Sagarin's ratings online only go back to 1998, but here is the average for the MAC East excluding Ohio, year by year:
1998 - 60.62 (no Buffalo, includes Marshall)
1999 - 59.70 (includes Marshall)
2000 - 54.30 (includes Marshall)
2001 - 65.80 (includes Marshall)
2002 - 61.88 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2003 - 65.99 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2004 - 57.64 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2005 - 60.13
2006 - 57.53
2007 - 55.94 (includes Temple)
2008 - 61.77 (includes Temple)
2009 - 60.29 (includes Temple)
2010 - 54.49 (includes Temple)
2011 - 60.01 (includes Temple)
2012 - 56.39 (includes U.Mass)
2013 - 57.07 (includes U.Mass)

Average 1998-2000=58.20
Average 2001-2004=62.83
Average 2005-2013=58.31

There was not much difference between the Solich and Grobe years, but the Knorr years were "beast". Maybe that was part of the reason for the big drop in his first year - look at the jump in the competition. BG, Kent, Miami, Buffalo, and Marshall were all much, much better in 2001 than in 2000.

B. the EAST is NO WHERE near where it was when Jim Grobe was coaching in Athens.

Here is a team by team comparison between 2000 and 2013:

2000 2013
Miami 60.65 38.76
Buffalo 41.18 72.77
Kent 42.15 54.54
Akron 61.70 54.11
BG 51.45 75.23
Marshall 63.86 na
U.Mass na 47.00
Average 54.30 57.07

The primary difference is that the two two teams are much better this year than in 2000. Note: Miami in 1996 was rated 75.79, about the same as BG is this year, and Marshall in 1999 was 87.74, much better than anyone is now. BG was in the 70s in 2001-2002 during Knorr, and Miami was 72.57 in 2002, and 89.14 in 2003, again, under Knorr.
You look at 2000, examine the other years, the late 90's when The MAC was ruled by Marshall and Miami, no tricks here, many of us were watching this on a regular basis as OHIO fans, no disrespect, but you probably did not even know where Athens was at that time. If anything your numbers show that others have passed us by, Marshall left the league, Miami has collapsed however Akron, Kent, Buffalo, Miami have all won the MAC in that time.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 11:13 PM
I looked a all years for which there are records online. There were two teams that were historically much better than anything in the MAC today, Marshall in 1999, and Miami in 2003. Other than that no teams in any years from 1998 until today were any better than BG, Buffalo, NIU, Ball State, or Toledo is this year. . Rather that than there just being two top teams (Marshall and Miami), there are many teams of that caliber today. The only reason that the averages today are not much higher than they were back then is that there are some really bad teams, too, Miami, WMU, U.Mass, and EMU.
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Posted: 11/21/2013 11:14 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
...When Grobe was in Athens the East was a beast, and we played all the quality league teams.

Since our memories can play tricks on us, I thought I'd check your facts. Sagarin's ratings online only go back to 1998, but here is the average for the MAC East excluding Ohio, year by year:
1998 - 60.62 (no Buffalo, includes Marshall)
1999 - 59.70 (includes Marshall)
2000 - 54.30 (includes Marshall)
2001 - 65.80 (includes Marshall)
2002 - 61.88 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2003 - 65.99 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2004 - 57.64 (BG in the West, includes Marshall and UCF)
2005 - 60.13
2006 - 57.53
2007 - 55.94 (includes Temple)
2008 - 61.77 (includes Temple)
2009 - 60.29 (includes Temple)
2010 - 54.49 (includes Temple)
2011 - 60.01 (includes Temple)
2012 - 56.39 (includes U.Mass)
2013 - 57.07 (includes U.Mass)

Average 1998-2000=58.20
Average 2001-2004=62.83
Average 2005-2013=58.31

There was not much difference between the Solich and Grobe years, but the Knorr years were "beast". Maybe that was part of the reason for the big drop in his first year - look at the jump in the competition. BG, Kent, Miami, Buffalo, and Marshall were all much, much better in 2001 than in 2000.

B. the EAST is NO WHERE near where it was when Jim Grobe was coaching in Athens.

Here is a team by team comparison between 2000 and 2013:

2000 2013
Miami 60.65 38.76
Buffalo 41.18 72.77
Kent 42.15 54.54
Akron 61.70 54.11
BG 51.45 75.23
Marshall 63.86 na
U.Mass na 47.00
Average 54.30 57.07

The primary difference is that the two two teams are much better this year than in 2000. Note: Miami in 1996 was rated 75.79, about the same as BG is this year, and Marshall in 1999 was 87.74, much better than anyone is now. BG was in the 70s in 2001-2002 during Knorr, and Miami was 72.57 in 2002, and 89.14 in 2003, again, under Knorr.
You look at 2000, examine the other years, the late 90's when The MAC was ruled by Marshall and Miami, no tricks here, many of us were watching this on a regular basis as OHIO fans, no disrespect, but you probably did not even know where Athens was at that time. If anything your numbers show that others have passed us by, Marshall left the league, Miami has collapsed however Akron, Kent, Buffalo, Miami have all won the MAC in that time.
It's not that they passed us by it's that they've always been ahead of us
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Posted: 11/22/2013 2:17 AM
Oh, c'mon.  This is not about stats.  If you've seen the recent total collapse and you consider 6-6 against the sched we've played (Peay, EMU, redhawk, 'kron, etc--so tough!) then there's only one possible question:  How's the view from the deck of the Titanic?

Next time, try booking a cruise to reality.



 
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Posted: 11/22/2013 8:52 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more

This is the only thing I have an issue with. We should expect Frank to make decisions, uncharateristic of his life's work or not.

Why?

What evidence do you have you that we should expect coaches to make uncharacteristic decisions?

Where is there evidence of other coaches stopping on a dime and switching gears after decades in the business?

(I do not consider a coach establishing the run under center and later establishing the run from the shotgun as changing gears.)

I understand that I come off as over-aggressive but I assure you this is not a rhetorical question.



Because that's his job as the head coach. And I actually do consider the offensive changes he made a major decision. He could've stood pat with the single back sets and ran the option all day, but he didn't, he changed. A lot of head coaches wouldn't do that.

As far as other examples, Head Coaches fire assistants all the time. Or change offensive/defensive philosphies. That's the point I was trying to make. Heck, even you said he'll fire Albin. We disagree on why (I believe you said to save his job, which I don't think is in jeopardy at the moment), but we do agree that some type of change is needed. Right?

You're fine with being over-agressive. I think's that's the sentiment of this entire board. The team has underachieved and it's frustrating.

In nature, elements change states due to a variety of enivornmental factors (changes in pH, the presence of other ions). Elements like iron can either be oxidized or reduced, when possible, to take an altered form. What you don't see though is iron transforming into aluminum or titanium.

In life, people change states due to a variety of socioeconomic factors. Solich taking a snap in the shotgun, or reducing his dependence on the option, is not significant because his fundamental properties remain unchanged (loyalty, focus on establishing the run, calm demeanor).

If Frank fired an offensive or defensive coordinator after last season (a successful one relative to OHIO standards), or threw on 15 consectutive possessions, or gave a stirring speech to the media, I would consider that significant change.

If Frank started running Oregon's offense I would consider that iron turning into titanium, and I would quit my job to take up alchemy (the process of turning metals into gold*).

Frank has not changed. His players have. I'm not worried. But I understand why other fans are. I still honestly believe he's our fastest route to a MAC Championship. And above all, the man has been a blessing to this university.

*Although alchemy is a fictional chemical process, there is evidence with modern technology and nuclear power trace amounts of gold can be created

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Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 11/22/2013 11:54 AM
Over the last season and a half, we are certainly in the bottom part of the MAC, not at all near the top.

What going to do?  Who is responsible?
Casper71
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Posted: 11/22/2013 12:16 PM
Monroe, I have to agree with you again. 

And I continue to lay it at the feet of the recruiting philosophy.  I will repeat for the umpteenth time: This staff is not going after ENOUGH bigger, faster, stronger players to START with.  They seem to be satisfied mostly recruiting projects and letting them (hopefully) develop.  A staff with the caliber of this head coache and this staff should be able to do better!  Especially after 9 years!  So, until this staff really goes after and signs BETTER athletes to START with, the program is what it is: Average to Above Average (by MAC standards) but not Excellent.
L.C.
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Posted: 11/22/2013 12:18 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Oh, c'mon.  This is not about stats....

Monroe, I just set out to prove or disprove the "claims" made by Billy the Cat about how things were soooo much harder in the "good old days" under Grobe.  He was trying to make the case that Grobe>>Solich even though his winning record was lower, because Grobe played a harder schedule. A little research showed that his "facts" were wrong. The MAC of the late 90s was not that different from the MAC of today, though the MAC was indeed harder during the Knorr years.

When  you look at it, on it's face, Solich's record and Grobe's are quite similar if you adjust for the difficulty of the schedule:

                     Solich                   Grobe
MAC games         43-31  58.1%          27-20-1  57.3%
BCS teams          3-12  20.0%           2- 9    18.1%
Other I-A teams   11- 6  64.7%           1- 3    25.0%
I-AA teams         8- 0 100.0%           3- 1    75.0% 
Total             65-49  57.0%          33-33-1  50.0%


Another of Billy's claims is that Grobe played a harder schedule. That seems to be true, given that he played 11 BCS teams in 6 years, while Solich has only played 15 in 9 years. Yet, does it really matter who you play, if you don't beat them? So, let's have a look, and see who those OOC wins came against:

Grobe's OOC wins against I-A teams:
1996 Hawaii           2- 9
1997 Maryland         2- 9
2000 Minnesota        6- 6


Solich's OOC wins against I-A teams:
2005 Pitt             5- 6
2006 Illinois         2-10
2007 La-Lafayette     3- 9
2009 North Texas      2-10
2010 La-Lafayette     3- 9
2011 New Mexico State 4- 9
2011 Marshall         7- 6
2011 Utah State       7- 6
2012 Penn State       8- 4
2012 New Mexico St    1-11
2012 Marshall         5- 7
2012 La-Monroe        8- 5
2013 North Texas      7- 3
2013 Marshall         7- 3


Amazingingly, Solich's first 5-6 years look almost identical to Grobe's 5 years. But....something amazing happens in the last three years. For the first time, Ohio starts beating OOC teams with winning records, and not just once - six times in three years. These same Seniors that everyone is complaining about giving up? They are the ones who played in those games. Very, interesting.
Last Edited: 11/22/2013 12:22:49 PM by L.C.
OhioStunter
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Posted: 11/22/2013 12:31 PM
The Situation wrote:expand_more

Frank has not changed. His players have. I'm not worried. But I understand why other fans are. I still honestly believe he's our fastest route to a MAC Championship. And above all, the man has been a blessing to this university.


I agree about Frank being the fastest route to a MAC Championship and a blessing to the university.

I disagree when you say that Frank has not changed. I posted that NY Times link that you are very familiar with to illustrate the point that he has made major changes before.

He installed an entirely new offense. Yes, a 66-year-old head coach made a major shift from philosophy to try something new.

For a while, it worked. Now, it doesn't.

No matter the reason the plan doesn't work now, it's his job to:
a. Change it
b. Stay with it

The point you are trying to make is that Frank has not changed. He has.

He may do it again. Or not. But he's surprised people before. Even his old boss.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1933&dat=20041216&id=eQgiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cGkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5794,6756385

 

Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 11/22/2013 12:41 PM

L.C.--I respect your analysis and love your input.  But it's the eyeballs.

Take kents.  I know that tv does not show the whole field.  But it shows substantial parts of it and parts which are important (action around the ball...espec in running game).

It showed very, very little of our guys making decisive plays..beating.. their guys.
It showed their d-line having a field day on rushing TT.  IT showed our d-linemen not getting any pass rush or doing much in the way of penetration/plays on kents side of the ball.  (All those sacks from earlier in the year...where are they now).

It showed nothing much different on either side of the ball from any other game this year..even as we free fall.
It showed us getting Terhuned.

Did you see "Trouble With The Curve?"  Great movie and makes the point (which is certainly somewhat valid) that ya knows it when ya sees it no matter what 'the gun' says.

All the stats in the world won't convince me that the last three games have been other than stinkers.

The Situation
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Posted: 11/22/2013 12:59 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
The point you are trying to make is that Frank has not changed. He has.

He may do it again. Or not. But he's surprised people before. Even his old boss.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1933&dat=20041216&id=eQgiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cGkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5794,6756385

 

I alluded to his shift in his play design during the transistion from Nebraska to OHIO in an earlier post. There's a better article out there; I'll try to find it.

Maybe what I'm not making clear is that Frank's ability to adapt has always been a fundamental property of his human element.

If I want Taco Bell but I'm driving along and get off at the exit and there's only a Hardee's. I adapt and get Hardee's. I don't "change". What remain's the same is my fundamental willingness to eat fast food in favor of non-fast food alternatives.

What most percieve as change is often superficial and really trivial in nature when it comes to modeling an outcome.

Frank has not changed. What has literally changed are his players (graduation, attrition, underachievement by position players). We could go into a seperate debate on whether Tyler Tettleton, or anyone else has actually changed or not.

I keep focusing on the fact that Frank is not a variable and I can't stress it enough. If we performed a sensitivity analysis on the outcome of this season we might see the resulting blame lie years ago in the poor recruiting class of 2010 (?) that LC has so thoroughly examined. The outcome deviated massively based on the play of one individual (TT). So if you want to place blame on Frank for recruiting the variables, take him to court over that issue back in 2009, not 2013. And allow him to present the evidence on why that recruiting class turned out the way it did.

Last Edited: 11/22/2013 1:01:40 PM by The Situation
Paul Graham
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Paul Graham
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Posted: 11/22/2013 1:14 PM
The Situation has turned this thread into a laughable meditation on whether or not Frank has Free Will, or is some kind of deterministic being governed only by physical law.
Last Edited: 11/22/2013 1:15:00 PM by Paul Graham
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