Ohio Football Topic
Topic: College Football Union
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Speaker of Truth
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Posted: 1/29/2014 10:36 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Everyone's issue should really be with the NBA and the NFL for not having viable development leagues of their own. Why is it the NCAA's job to provide one for those 2 organizations? Your beef should really be with the admissions offices of schools who are letting in kids who can't function in college. Do you really want to make this a free for all for schools with the richest boosters? You want division 1 to be about 30 schools for football and maybe a few more for basketball and 10 for baseball and no olympic sports.

So because boosters would take advantage of the system, we punish the athletes?  

 


Punish is a strong word. Do you think athletes are being punished today? If so, please list how.

Punish probably ins't the right word, but they are getting screwed.  My point is, we prevent College Athletes from making money of their own name because booster would take advantage of that system.  Why is that fair? 
 
D.A.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 10:40 AM
Tom Luginbill and Joey Galloway hit the nail on the head with the following observation yesterday on College Football Daily (loosely paraphrased here):

Unions rely on one primary method besides collective bargaining in order gain the concessions they seek: STRIKING.

How many high school football players, when provided the opportunity, would choose NOT TO cross a picket line for the promise to play football at Northwestern and receive a $60k a year education in exchange for their services?

Answer: every single football player not currently committed to a higher profile program would cross that picket line.

No chance this plays our practically.

And I am with OCF in that the player's beef should not be with universities, but with the One or Two and Done Rules in hoops and football, and with professional sports not providing a viable path to the pros that does not require the facade of college education being required before you can turn pro.
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 10:41:48 AM by D.A.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:00 AM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
Everyone's issue should really be with the NBA and the NFL for not having viable development leagues of their own. Why is it the NCAA's job to provide one for those 2 organizations? Your beef should really be with the admissions offices of schools who are letting in kids who can't function in college. Do you really want to make this a free for all for schools with the richest boosters? You want division 1 to be about 30 schools for football and maybe a few more for basketball and 10 for baseball and no olympic sports.

So because boosters would take advantage of the system, we punish the athletes?  

 


Punish is a strong word. Do you think athletes are being punished today? If so, please list how.

Punish probably ins't the right word, but they are getting screwed.  My point is, we prevent College Athletes from making money of their own name because booster would take advantage of that system.  Why is that fair? 
 


So you're bemoaning the fact that Johnny Quarterback can't make millions, today, for merchandising himself? If Johnny is good enough to make it in the NFL, he'll get his due. If he isn't, he won't.

If A&M allowed Johnny to make bucks off merchandising, can you even begin to imagine the corruption that would follow?
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:14 AM
Johnny Football is good enough to make that money as a college player.  Why can't he?  Any other student at that school could sell their own autograph or charge for an appearance....why can't Johnny Football(We are talking before he declared)?  

You say there would be corruption?  Please explain......

I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 

 
OhioStunter
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:19 AM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
Everyone's issue should really be with the NBA and the NFL for not having viable development leagues of their own. Why is it the NCAA's job to provide one for those 2 organizations? Your beef should really be with the admissions offices of schools who are letting in kids who can't function in college. Do you really want to make this a free for all for schools with the richest boosters? You want division 1 to be about 30 schools for football and maybe a few more for basketball and 10 for baseball and no olympic sports.

So because boosters would take advantage of the system, we punish the athletes?  

 


Punish is a strong word. Do you think athletes are being punished today? If so, please list how.

Punish probably ins't the right word, but they are getting screwed.  My point is, we prevent College Athletes from making money of their own name because booster would take advantage of that system.  Why is that fair? 
 


If having a beautiful players' lounge and workout facilities, getting $300K in free tuition and doing what you love is considered getting screwed, then yes, athletes must be getting screwed. Keep in mind, there are 420,000 NCAA Division I athletes and only a handful of Johnny Footballs.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:20 AM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
Johnny Football is good enough to make that money as a college player.  Why can't he?  Any other student at that school could sell their own autograph or charge for an appearance....why can't Johnny Football(We are talking before he declared)?  

You say there would be corruption?  Please explain......

I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 

 


If Johnny Football wanted to sell his autographs for $1 million each, the NCAA is not stopping him.  He just won't be allowed to compete the following season.  If he was that hard up for money, he could have taken the money now and sat the year.  Same for someone like Clowney.  Every action has a consequence. 
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:32 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=SouthernCat]Everyone's issue should really be with the NBA and the NFL for not having viable development leagues of their own. Why is it the NCAA's job to provide one for those 2 organizations? Your beef should really be with the admissions offices of schools who are letting in kids who can't function in college. Do you really want to make this a free for all for schools with the richest boosters? You want division 1 to be about 30 schools for football and maybe a few more for basketball and 10 for baseball and no olympic sports.

So because boosters would take advantage of the system, we punish the athletes?  

 


Punish is a strong word. Do you think athletes are being punished today? If so, please list how.

Punish probably ins't the right word, but they are getting screwed.  My point is, we prevent College Athletes from making money of their own name because booster would take advantage of that system.  Why is that fair? 
 


If having a beautiful players' lounge and workout facilities, getting $300K in free tuition and doing what you love is considered getting screwed, then yes, athletes must be getting screwed. Keep in mind, there are 420,000 NCAA Division I athletes and only a handful of Johnny Footballs.
/QUOTE]



99% of College Athletes are getting a great deal.  However, the top 1% are getting screwed.  They drive the revenue that pays for the other 99% to get all the great stuff you talk about, but they are not getting any extra.



Nobody has answered my question on why it is fair that a normal student can sell their autograph, but a student athlete can't?



 
Robert Fox
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:33 AM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 


That doesn't make me happy. But that would be the ONLY response, and would be completely ineffective, creating an even bigger split between the haves/have-nots. So instead, the rule is you can't make money until you're out on your own, playing in the NFL or similar. Sorry, but that causes me exactly zero heartburn. 
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:45 AM
[


They had to put the word "Tornado" in large letters so half the players could sound it out to read it.  And Nick Saban doesn't give a rat's ass.  It is not just about the dollars.  Yes, the players better be careful what they wish for.  Because, God forbid, a fallout of this could be that athletes have to actually be eligible to attend a University and then Universities have to actually provide an education.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 11:54 AM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 


That doesn't make me happy. But that would be the ONLY response, and would be completely ineffective, creating an even bigger split between the haves/have-nots. So instead, the rule is you can't make money until you're out on your own, playing in the NFL or similar. Sorry, but that causes me exactly zero heartburn. 


Some heartburn issues for some athletes:
Restrictions on the freedom to migrate to other programs.
Restrictions on student employment opportunities for scholarship athletes.
You serve at the pleasure of your coach, meaning he/she can opt to not renew scholarship regardless of your performance.  This has resulted in creeps like Urban Meyer recruiting and offering more scholarships than he has available, then not extending scholarships to exisiting players.

 
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 11:56:10 AM by MedinaCat
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Posted: 1/29/2014 12:22 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 


That doesn't make me happy. But that would be the ONLY response, and would be completely ineffective, creating an even bigger split between the haves/have-nots. So instead, the rule is you can't make money until you're out on your own, playing in the NFL or similar. Sorry, but that causes me exactly zero heartburn. 

1.  The split is already there.  Small schools are not competing for the superstar athletes that are getting the raw end of the deal.  
2.  So young men are missing out on their earning potential just to keep fans happy by seemingly keeping some competitive balance?  How is that fair to them?
3.  Think of the issue from a logical perspective and not just as a fan.  
4.  You have still not answered my question as to why any student on campus can sell their autograph, except the student athletes?   

 
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Posted: 1/29/2014 12:24 PM
MedinaCat wrote:expand_more
I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 


That doesn't make me happy. But that would be the ONLY response, and would be completely ineffective, creating an even bigger split between the haves/have-nots. So instead, the rule is you can't make money until you're out on your own, playing in the NFL or similar. Sorry, but that causes me exactly zero heartburn. 


Some heartburn issues for some athletes:
Restrictions on the freedom to migrate to other programs.
Restrictions on student employment opportunities for scholarship athletes.
You serve at the pleasure of your coach, meaning he/she can opt to not renew scholarship regardless of your performance.  This has resulted in creeps like Urban Meyer recruiting and offering more scholarships than he has available, then not extending scholarships to exisiting players.

 

I think these issues are exactly why the players are justified in having a union to represent them.  They have no power at all.  I'm sure some expert will chime in and say: "They don't have to play, it is a choice".

 
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Posted: 1/29/2014 12:37 PM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
I am assuming you will reference donors paying huge amounts of money for autographs and sponsorships.  If it makes you happy, we could come to agreed upon terms for what the athletes could charge for this.  I don't like that because it is a restriction on trade, and keeps them from reaching their potential earnings. 


That doesn't make me happy. But that would be the ONLY response, and would be completely ineffective, creating an even bigger split between the haves/have-nots. So instead, the rule is you can't make money until you're out on your own, playing in the NFL or similar. Sorry, but that causes me exactly zero heartburn. 


Some heartburn issues for some athletes:
Restrictions on the freedom to migrate to other programs.
Restrictions on student employment opportunities for scholarship athletes.
You serve at the pleasure of your coach, meaning he/she can opt to not renew scholarship regardless of your performance.  This has resulted in creeps like Urban Meyer recruiting and offering more scholarships than he has available, then not extending scholarships to exisiting players.

 

I think these issues are exactly why the players are justified in having a union to represent them.  They have no power at all.  I'm sure some expert will chime in and say: "They don't have to play, it is a choice".

 


MedinaCat, those are valid issues. Can a union help solve that? I don't know. Grambling State players had valid issues. They simply boycotted a game after their concerns went unaddressed. They didn't need a union to do that.

It seems that there may be existing channels for student-athletes to have a voice on these issues, either through the NCAA or their conferences or their schools, no?

I think there is value in having union representation in some circumstances, but college athletics is not one of them.
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 12:38:17 PM by OhioStunter
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Posted: 1/29/2014 12:39 PM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=SouthernCat]Everyone's issue should really be with the NBA and the NFL for not having viable development leagues of their own. Why is it the NCAA's job to provide one for those 2 organizations? Your beef should really be with the admissions offices of schools who are letting in kids who can't function in college. Do you really want to make this a free for all for schools with the richest boosters? You want division 1 to be about 30 schools for football and maybe a few more for basketball and 10 for baseball and no olympic sports.

So because boosters would take advantage of the system, we punish the athletes?  

 


Punish is a strong word. Do you think athletes are being punished today? If so, please list how.

Punish probably ins't the right word, but they are getting screwed.  My point is, we prevent College Athletes from making money of their own name because booster would take advantage of that system.  Why is that fair? 
 


If having a beautiful players' lounge and workout facilities, getting $300K in free tuition and doing what you love is considered getting screwed, then yes, athletes must be getting screwed. Keep in mind, there are 420,000 NCAA Division I athletes and only a handful of Johnny Footballs.
/QUOTE]



99% of College Athletes are getting a great deal.  However, the top 1% are getting screwed.  They drive the revenue that pays for the other 99% to get all the great stuff you talk about, but they are not getting any extra.



Nobody has answered my question on why it is fair that a normal student can sell their autograph, but a student athlete can't?



 

Johnny absolutely could have sold his autograph for $1,000,000 last season as a normal student.  The only argument is whether or not it is unfair that he couldn't participate as an amateur athlete and sell his autograph, and no one here is going to share the same opinion on that.

I posit it is not unfair because he could have chosen to sit out a year and not play football and then pitch his skills to the NFL, just as Clowney could have.  But without that one year in college, neither of their autographs would have had the market worth they had after playing for a year at their respective colleges.  Hence they are receiving direct financial benefit from their experience in college, although it is post dated to their transition to the professional ranks.  That is why I have no problem with them not being paid in college.

The definition of amateurism is the debate, and I feel the Northwestern student athletes are barking up the wrong tree for their pursuits of pocket money for playing their chosen sport, because the NBA and NFL have far deeper pockets than the handful of colleges that actually turn a profit in revenue generating sports.

I believe it is corrupt to prevent athletes from participating in a professional league immediately when an individual feels they have the skills to turn professional, but I do not hold that against colleges.  You can do that in hockey, so why not football and basketball?  Collusion between the NCAA and the professional leagues, more likely in an attempt to reduce the capital expenditure of building minor league systems for all the athletes wishing to turn pro immediately after college.  Or perhaps because the leagues are colluding with colleges because they know that there is not the consumer base to support minor leagues in their sports, and in turn they would lose money in building minor leagues for their sports.  How many here would have paid the price of a TA&M ticket to watch Johnny Football play for a newly established franchise called the Waco Drillers in the Texas Minor Football League, the minor league affiliate of the Dallas Cowboys?  NONE! 

Jay Bilas is the biggest hypocite in this whole matter, as he wants to have a foot in both camps and preserve the present state of a highly effective college system without regard for how it would lead to the dismantling of Title Nine and the thousands of student athletes that would lose their scholarships if you paid revenue generating students their supposed current fair market value.  And that argument completely disregards the concept of amateurism.

It is the colleges that are supporting the ICA programs that are carrying all the financial and legal risk of operating the present system, and those programs fortunate enough to turn a profit actually are not paying a few "fat cats" for this successful enterprise.  This money is being turned back into the programs in the form of offering more sports for more student athletes, which in turn is providing the college experience to even more student athletes that may not have had the opportunity to attend college and receive a degree.  I personally do not find that any more a corrupt enterprise than asking OHIO students to pay the student fee to operate our ICA program. 

If you want to pay college players at profitable programs, then you should also pay high school athletes for the very successful programs that generate revenue for their school systems, so don't conveniently cherry pick colleges.  There are football programs in TX and FL and hoops programs in IN that I am certain are very profitable, so why are those kids not getting paid, and why should then not also be forming unions?
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 12:45:52 PM by D.A.
OhioStunter
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Posted: 1/29/2014 12:57 PM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
99% of College Athletes are getting a great deal.  However, the top 1% are getting screwed.  They drive the revenue that pays for the other 99% to get all the great stuff you talk about, but they are not getting any extra.
 


The top 1% of 420,000 NCAA student-athletes equals 4,200.

4,200 athletes are not getting screwed because they can't sell their autographs.

Even if you want to characterize all first team All-Americans in FB as getting screwed because they can't sell autographs, that's only .007 percent of all D-I athletes.

Want to add all of the "stars" on Top 25 MBB teams? You're still at .019 of the total D-I population.

So, in reality only .019% of athletes are "getting screwed".

Think that's too extreme? Let's take the FB starters in the top 25 (550) and the MBB starters in the Top 25 (125). Those are the most likely to profit from autographs, yes? That's still .16% of athletes "getting screwed."

No one NCAA athlete is bigger than the program. Will Texas A&M fans still fill the stadium when Johnny Football is gone?
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Posted: 1/29/2014 1:06 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
MedinaCat, those are valid issues. Can a union help solve that? I don't know. Grambling State players had valid issues. They simply boycotted a game after their concerns went unaddressed. They didn't need a union to do that.

It seems that there may be existing channels for student-athletes to have a voice on these issues, either through the NCAA or their conferences or their schools, no?

I think there is value in having union representation in some circumstances, but college athletics is not one of them.


My view is that the exisiting channels are not going to remedy the points I put forth.  For instance, in the Big Ten, an athlete is free to transfer within the conference, however without schlarship.  This is a conference policy(not NCAA) that has been appealed in individual cases without exceptions being made(at least to my understanding.)

Without some type of external influence, I dont see things changing.  So here some options off the top of my head:
Establishment(or threat of) of a Bargaining Unit(Union)
Representation by individual agents(would require a class action law suit?)
Local, state and/or federal legislation that absolves/protects schools from such activities.  On the other hand, there could be legislation that requires schools to provide certain benefits/protections/freedoms to student athletes.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 1:19 PM
MedinaCat wrote:expand_more
MedinaCat, those are valid issues. Can a union help solve that? I don't know. Grambling State players had valid issues. They simply boycotted a game after their concerns went unaddressed. They didn't need a union to do that.

It seems that there may be existing channels for student-athletes to have a voice on these issues, either through the NCAA or their conferences or their schools, no?

I think there is value in having union representation in some circumstances, but college athletics is not one of them.


My view is that the exisiting channels are not going to remedy the points I put forth.  For instance, in the Big Ten, an athlete is free to transfer within the conference, however without schlarship.  This is a conference policy(not NCAA) that has been appealed in individual cases without exceptions being made(at least to my understanding.)

Without some type of external influence, I dont see things changing.  So here some options off the top of my head:
Establishment(or threat of) of a Bargaining Unit(Union)
Representation by individual agents(would require a class action law suit?)
Local, state and/or federal legislation that absolves/protects schools from such activities.  On the other hand, there could be legislation that requires schools to provide certain benefits/protections/freedoms to student athletes.


Without some type of external influence, I dont see things changing. So here some options off the top of my head:
Establishment(or threat of) of a Bargaining Unit(Union) -- the bargaining chip is them not playing, for which the solution for the university is easy -- finding someone who will play. If the strategy is the threat and creating discussions like this about these issues, this may work. But having actual union officials at yesterday's press conference tells me this is more than a threat and as stated many times before by many posters, will open up Pandora's box.
Representation by individual agents(would require a class action law suit?) -- Agree. This should be pursued in the courts if no remediation is made through existing channels.
Local, state and/or federal legislation that absolves/protects schools from such activities. On the other hand, there could be legislation that requires schools to provide certain benefits/protections/freedoms to student athletes. -- Agreed. Appealing to government officials (could the Board of Regents take this on?) seems like the way to go

Well done MedinaCat.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 1:20 PM
the123kid wrote:expand_more
1.  The split is already there.  Small schools are not competing for the superstar athletes that are getting the raw end of the deal.  


True, but the union won't fix that problem.
the123kid wrote:expand_more
3.  Think of the issue from a logical perspective and not just as a fan.  


I am thinking of this logically, not just from the perspective of the extremely small subset of superathletes.

the123kid wrote:expand_more
4.  You have still not answered my question as to why any student on campus can sell their autograph, except the student athletes?   


Our very discussion is answering this question. These athletes chose to participate in this system. The ban on selling autographs is a condition of that system. Once Johnny Football moves on to the NFL, he can make all the money he wants, but not while he's QB for A&M. The student in the English department can sell his/her autograph without restriction, but they're not getting the high-dollar exposure from the university that Johnny is.

Is that unfair? No, it's not.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 2:04 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more

Representation by individual agents(would require a class action law suit?) -- Agree. This should be pursued in the courts if no remediation is made through existing channels.


As I understand the NCAA rules, individual players ARE allowed to have agents under current rules...just as they are allowed to have lawyers.

The catch?

They have to pay the agent's hourly rate/retainer as they would for a lawyer, no freebies or promises of paying a percentage of future earnings.

EDIT: added italicized text for clarity
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 2:38:06 PM by mf279801
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Posted: 1/29/2014 2:27 PM
I did not know that, thanks.
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Posted: 1/29/2014 2:38 PM
The current system has a lot in common with socialism. Each person is supposed to contribute according to his/her own ability, and then the gross proceeds are distributed in the form of equal in-kind benefits (i.e. scholarships) to all the players, plus to an equal number of women, just for good measure. I thought everyone liked socialism?
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Posted: 1/29/2014 2:50 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
The current system has a lot in common with socialism. Each person is supposed to contribute according to his/her own ability, and then the gross proceeds are distributed in the form of equal in-kind benefits (i.e. scholarships) to all the players, plus to an equal number of women, just for good measure. I thought everyone liked socialism?



--Ferris Bueller, 1986
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Posted: 1/29/2014 2:56 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
As I understand the NCAA rules, individual players ARE allowed to have agents under current rules...just as they are allowed to have lawyers.

The catch?

They have to pay the agent's hourly rate/retainer as they would for a lawyer, no freebies or promises of paying a percentage of future earnings.

EDIT: added italicized text for clarity


You can talk, you (or your parents, or other representative) can not sign or verbally agree to any relationship with an agent.

http://www.ohiobobcats.com/compliance/compl-amateurism.html
Last Edited: 1/29/2014 2:59:09 PM by cc-cat
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Posted: 1/29/2014 3:05 PM
Suppose the result of this were to divest sports from universities, and move big time sports to a professional setting, where the top teams would become NFL and NBA farm teams, and the top players could be paid according to their ability, and players would no longer required to go to school in order to participate. Then suppose that at the same time, athletic scholarships are eliminated from all sports at the college level, and that athletes would then be required to meet the same admission standards as everyone else, and would get scholarships only according to need. Would people consider that to be an improvement?
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Posted: 1/29/2014 3:14 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Suppose the result of this were to divest sports from universities, and move big time sports to a professional setting, where the top teams would become NFL and NBA farm teams, and the top players could be paid according to their ability, and players would no longer required to go to school in order to participate. Then suppose that at the same time, athletic scholarships are eliminated from all sports at the college level, and that athletes would then be required to meet the same admission standards as everyone else, and would get scholarships only according to need. Would people consider that to be an improvement?


I would think that would ultimately result in two things:
1) the number of athletes that could go pro early would prove to be small, mostly not impacting the pool of college-bound athletes. The early-pro athletes would simply be merged into the existing NFL/NBA, etc. as opposed to launching a new league.

2) What is left of college athletics would more closely resemble the existing Division III, where athletic scholarships do not exist, but the schools lobby for the players they want and find ways to furnish academic scholarships or similar. In the end, you would have many of the same problems that exist today.
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