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Topic: For those that don't think Ohio desperately needs to find multiple new QBs
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Monroe Slavin
12/20/2015 12:37 PM
Thanks for softballs III:

Yeah, just because you've heard 'predictable' for ages, OCF, means it's not true for Solich. You're ability to put up irrelevant and illogical arguments by way of not admitting the reality is impressive.

Predictable and ineffective. Solich's record speaks for itself.




Grobe's triple option was predictable. We were going to run and be ineffective on the rare pass. Grobe inherited a situation world's worse than Solich. After his first two years, how often did Grobe get destroyed by MAC teams, espec lower level ones? I don't know..but I'll bet it wasn't 2-3 per year routinely.

When the predictable ain't working, it ain't working.
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The Situation
12/20/2015 12:52 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Thanks for the softballs:

Situation: At OSU, Bates showed his qb ability: No arm at all (broken chicken wing), no decision making savvy (deer in headlights is charitable) and no running ability other than straight ahead (with no particular power). Can't recall if it was Boo or T3 who we brought in mid-game. But whoever it was, and thought it may have been against OSU's 3rd team, he was reasonably effective and we looked vaguely like a football team, not the (almost literally) scared, OVERWHELMED, DISORGANIZED bunch we were when Bates was in. It was appalling that our coaches actually decided to play him.

I believe that Bates barely played another down at qb for us that year. Contrast Sprague who can legitimately play, though perhaps not so well.
Phil Bates performance against OSU was bad. AWFUL. But Phil Bates had no effect on the outcome of the OSU game.

I'm not arguing who's the better QB. I'm arguing whose performance was worse.

JD's performance lost the game and that's why I consider his performance worse. JD Sprague's 2 interceptions were thrown in Ohio territory on 2nd down in the 2nd half. If Sprague just takes a sack instead of throwing a paper airplane into the wilderness OHIO has at a minimum two more offensive plays and likely two more punts that extend App State's yards to gain in each case. Not to mention taking the sack buys the defense critical minutes on the sideline to collect themselves and regroup for another defensive stand.

CHERRY PICKED FUN FACT OF THE DAY:

Phil Bates threw 5 passes in 2011 with an 80% completion rate, 2 TDs, and a 450 passer rating.
Last Edited: 12/20/2015 1:02:30 PM by The Situation
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PhiTau74
12/20/2015 2:24 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Sprague is a very good running QB, he is well below average throwing so net is he is a below average QB. He missed 5-6 throws at least. Why throw the one interception with 3 guys surrounding the receiver. Even if the receiver made the wrong cut he was blanketed by 3 guys.
Is Lamb a below average QB, he threw a pick 6 right to Poling who was dropped into the passing lane.

It happens, move on, get better.
He's a red shirt Junior so he is a Senior really so how is he going to get better? He threw two interceptions late in the game that cost us the game. I could care less about Lamb unless he transfers to Ohio, I beleive his team won and they scored a hell of a lot more on offense than we did. 13 points on offense is pitiful.
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L.C.
12/20/2015 2:51 PM
The Situation wrote:expand_more
...CHERRY PICKED FUN FACT OF THE DAY:

Phil Bates threw 5 passes in 2011 with an 80% completion rate, 2 TDs, and a 450 passer rating.

CHERRY PICKED FUN FACT

I don't think bowl games are included when computing season records for the record book. If they are not, then Sprague now holds the all-time record at Ohio for the most efficient passer in a season.

Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
G... After his first two years, how often did Grobe get destroyed by MAC teams, espec lower level ones? I don't know..but I'll bet it wasn't 2-3 per year routinely...

Keep in mind that the game of football played today is very different than the game twenty years ago. Many changes have been made to the rules to help the offense in general, and passing in particular, with the goal of having more explosive plays, and more scoring. I don't have hard facts to show it, but my general perception is that scores are much higher now, and margins of victory are much higher now, too.
Last Edited: 12/20/2015 2:51:50 PM by L.C.
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OhioCatFan
12/20/2015 2:57 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
. . . I don't have hard facts to show it, but my general perception is that scores are much higher now, and margins of victory are much higher now, too.
Plus Grobe played a ball-control offense that took many, many minutes off the clock with virtually each possession, whether or not it ended in a score. This alone kept the opponent from scoring huge numbers in most games that OHIO played under JG.
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Monroe Slavin
12/20/2015 3:10 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . I don't have hard facts to show it, but my general perception is that scores are much higher now, and margins of victory are much higher now, too.
Plus Grobe played a ball-control offense that took many, many minutes off the clock with virtually each possession, whether or not it ended in a score. This alone kept the opponent from scoring huge numbers in most games that OHIO played under JG.

So, your saying that Grobe surveyed and chose a strategy that worked pretty much? I agree.


Scoring increase or not (and I imagine there's been some), multi blow-outs a year is happening with the current staff. And they keep happening whereas they didn't happen under Grobe.

So, a not unreasonable conclusion would be ??



hint: i'm not sure 'give the current staff at least 3-4 more years to macc and then assess if they don't' is a reasonable conclusion.
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L.C.
12/20/2015 3:21 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
...
So, a not unreasonable conclusion would be ??
...

My "not unreasonable conclusion" would be that the coaches should take a hard look in the off-season at the cover-4 defense. It works well at times, and results in some huge stops, but it also gives up too many big plays. Can the fix it to give up less big plays? If not, should it become situational, rather than full time?
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BillyTheCat
12/20/2015 3:38 PM
Grobie had teams that scored points and were explosive on offense. However he had to deal with Marshall at their all time high with Hall of Fame and NFL talent in many spots. As well as Miami which had another HOF player. Comparing the two are silly. Grobe's offense was effective and when done right is still very effective. As has some of the Solich era offenses.
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BillyTheCat
12/20/2015 3:40 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...
So, a not unreasonable conclusion would be ??
...

My "not unreasonable conclusion" would be that the coaches should take a hard look in the off-season at the cover-4 defense. It works well at times, and results in some huge stops, but it also gives up too many big plays. Can the fix it to give up less big plays? If not, should it become situational, rather than full time?
All defenses have weaknesses! All fronts have a weakness (unless you have superior personnel), but I hope you do not believe you can go blending styles and schemes. That type of identity gives you a Tim Kish defense.
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Mark Lembright '85
12/20/2015 3:48 PM
As time goes by my memory gets a little foggier, but the thing I recall most with TT was that when the lights shown their absolute brightest he generally rose to the occasion and played a great game (2nd half of the 2010 MACC notwithstanding). He didn't shrink from the occasion, a trait all the great quarterbacks who hope to lead their team in crunch time have to have. Sprague is adequate but he doesn't seem to have that "it" factor when the bright lights come on. Either a QB has it or they don't and Sprague does not.
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LuckySparrow
12/20/2015 4:14 PM
After Sprague threw his first pick, I was so annoyed when we aired it out on the next drive. He can be a useful QB when we utilize his running ability. Unfortunately, that leads to lingering injuries as we've seen with him and Vick in 14/15. Vick fits the mold of this offense because he's much better at longer passes than Sprague.

Also credit to a quite solid Appalachian State secondary.

I am not optimistic for 2016 with JD/Windham as the primary options. Hopefully Connor or Duckworth emerges. Who knows.
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OhioCatFan
12/20/2015 4:27 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
. . . So, a not unreasonable conclusion would be ?? . . .
That a ball-control offense will likely have less blowout loses than one that passes more often and takes less time off the clock with each possession. A loss is a loss, my friend, and cherry picking blowout losses for Solich is just a little ingenious. One could say that if Solich was less conservative in his playing calling we'd have fewer blow out losses; we might also have more total losses. Can you wrap you head around that one?
Last Edited: 12/20/2015 4:29:13 PM by OhioCatFan
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C Money
12/20/2015 4:57 PM
Next year's seniors:
QB: Sprague, Windham
RB: None
WR/TE: Reid, Rodriguez, Smith, Mangen
OL: Adams, Watson, Gibbons, Cooper
DL: Basham, Sayles, Laseak
LB: Brown
DB:Davis, Scipio

Next year's juniors:
QB: None
RB: Brown, Ouellette
WR/TE: Brunis, Cope, Walker
OL: Anderson, Lowery, McCray, Murdock, Wood, Preuhs
DL: Aloese, Porter, Robbins, Smart
LB: Poling, Daughtery, Moore
DB: Brown, Nelson, Quallen


Seems to me that with the exception of D line, we lose more in 2 years than after next year. If you start with the presumption that neither Sprague or Windham are MACC-caliber, give Maxwell a shot next year to earn experience for a title run in 2017. If Maxwell can't progress in time for 2017, get a transfer that can play for 2 years.
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Bcat2
12/20/2015 6:08 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Next year's seniors:
QB: Sprague, Windham
RB: None
WR/TE: Reid, Rodriguez, Smith, Mangen
OL: Adams, Watson, Gibbons, Cooper
DL: Basham, Sayles, Laseak
LB: Brown
DB:Davis, Scipio

Next year's juniors:
QB: None
RB: Brown, Ouellette
WR/TE: Brunis, Cope, Walker
OL: Anderson, Lowery, McCray, Murdock, Wood, Preuhs
DL: Aloese, Porter, Robbins, Smart
LB: Poling, Daughtery, Moore
DB: Brown, Nelson, Quallen


Seems to me that with the exception of D line, we lose more in 2 years than after next year. If you start with the presumption that neither Sprague or Windham are MACC-caliber, give Maxwell a shot next year to earn experience for a title run in 2017. If Maxwell can't progress in time for 2017, get a transfer that can play for 2 years.
First Mangen will be RS Jr next season.

Next with Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Davis, Reid, Smith, Watson, Gibbons, Sprague, Windham & the underclassmen there should be enough to make a run at the MACC. You don't get to through the senior season of Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Watson, Davis under the bus on some experiment. Also I reject your assumption that Sprague can not beat BG or NIU.
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C Money
12/20/2015 6:24 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
First Mangen will be RS Jr next season.

Next with Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Davis, Reid, Smith, Watson, Gibbons, Sprague, Windham & the underclassmen there should be enough to make a run at the MACC. You don't get to through the senior season of Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Watson, Davis under the bus on some experiment. Also I reject your assumption that Sprague can not beat BG or NIU.

Has Mangen already used his redshirt year? I thought he had, and a sixth year isn't guaranteed.

But I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. And it's not an experiment. It's a strategy to win a MACC, which, whenever it happens, will require better QB play than what we have seen the past two seasons. Both Sprague and Windham will be in their final year. They don't have a lot more time to develop. Maxwell does. So if he's going to be the man, let's let him develop in real game situations, or bring someone in who doesn't need to develop his fundamental skills but might need a year to learn the offense.
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Mike Johnson
12/20/2015 7:05 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Grobie had teams that scored points and were explosive on offense. However he had to deal with Marshall at their all time high with Hall of Fame and NFL talent in many spots. As well as Miami which had another HOF player. Comparing the two are silly. Grobe's offense was effective and when done right is still very effective. As has some of the Solich era offenses.
My collection of Phil Steele College Football Previews is on the floor above me. But my recollection is that it was a Grobe team that averaged more PPG (30+) than any other Bobcat team since that explosive '68 team.
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Monroe Slavin
12/20/2015 7:56 PM
It's now time to return control of this board to those who will tell you that having Solich as coach is absolutely correct based on his record, with the last four seasons being solidly in the affirmative on that.

Keep doing what you do: When coaches, players, fans, anyone anywhere gathers to discuss good and great football, the Solich and Ohio staff are surely at the front of the conversation.
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allen
12/20/2015 8:29 PM
The Situation wrote:expand_more
This coaching staff set every passing record at OHIO.

The lack of talent at the position kills us, not the play calling.

The blame I place on the staff is their inability to recruit the best available talent.

I think Vick underperformed due to injury over his career, but on the whole he was a capable QB for a MAC Championship run.

Unfortunately the staff didn't really have much of a backup plan.

Criticize their recruiting, not their coaching. I'll take this playbook year in and year out.
+1
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Bcat2
12/20/2015 9:33 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
First Mangen will be RS Jr next season.

Next with Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Davis, Reid, Smith, Watson, Gibbons, Sprague, Windham & the underclassmen there should be enough to make a run at the MACC. You don't get to through the senior season of Sayles, Basham, Laseak, Brown, Watson, Davis under the bus on some experiment. Also I reject your assumption that Sprague can not beat BG or NIU.

Has Mangen already used his redshirt year? I thought he had, and a sixth year isn't guaranteed.

But I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. And it's not an experiment. It's a strategy to win a MACC, which, whenever it happens, will require better QB play than what we have seen the past two seasons. Both Sprague and Windham will be in their final year. They don't have a lot more time to develop. Maxwell does. So if he's going to be the man, let's let him develop in real game situations, or bring someone in who doesn't need to develop his fundamental skills but might need a year to learn the offense.
Different strategy, target 2016, defense wins championships. Ride that defensive front to their championship. Give them the best QB period, not one under development. Now we schedule a meeting with the 2016 seniors, you present your strategy, I will present mine. We will see who gets thrown under the bus. His initials might be C Money. I won't even help keep Sayles off you.
Last Edited: 12/20/2015 9:35:55 PM by Bcat2
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L.C.
12/20/2015 9:43 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Has Mangen already used his redshirt year? I thought he had, and a sixth year isn't guaranteed....

No. He and Morgan were recruited the same year, but that was the year that Tanner and Henry both got hurt, so they had to play Mangen as a true freshman. This year will be his redshirt year, so he will be a Redshirt Junior next year.
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Bcat2
12/20/2015 9:59 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Next year's seniors:
QB: Sprague, Windham
RB: None
WR/TE: Reid, Rodriguez, Smith, Mangen
OL: Adams, Watson, Gibbons, Cooper
DL: Basham, Sayles, Laseak
LB: Brown
DB:Davis, Scipio

Next year's juniors:
QB: None
RB: Brown, Ouellette
WR/TE: Brunis, Cope, Walker
OL: Anderson, Lowery, McCray, Murdock, Wood, Preuhs
DL: Aloese, Porter, Robbins, Smart
LB: Poling, Daughtery, Moore
DB: Brown, Nelson, Quallen


Seems to me that with the exception of D line, we lose more in 2 years than after next year. If you start with the presumption that neither Sprague or Windham are MACC-caliber, give Maxwell a shot next year to earn experience for a title run in 2017. If Maxwell can't progress in time for 2017, get a transfer that can play for 2 years.
Another differing opinion on what will be possible in 2016.

Blitz posted

"Maxwell is only a Freshman he wont beat out Sprague and Windham baring injury or transfer. I actually think those two can be good in this offense. Blasting with AJ/Maleek/Dorian with a peppering of Papi and our WR group next year could be a MACC type of season."
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C Money
12/20/2015 10:02 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
Different strategy, target 2016, defense wins championships. Ride that defensive front to their championship. Give them the best QB period, not one under development. Now we schedule a meeting with the 2016 seniors, you present your strategy, I will present mine. We will see who gets thrown under the bus. His initials might be C Money. I won't even help keep Sayles off you.

Man, you need therapy. Whatever it is that makes you so defensive about the slightest bit of criticism (or anything other than pollyannaism, even), it isn't healthy.


Here's the deal….I don't think we are going to win the MACC next year. I hope I'm wrong. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. But that's my opinion. And I think we will be in a better position to win it in 2017 if we can have solid QB play.

Again, that's an opinion. You don't have to subscribe to it. That's fine. Doesn't bother me. And I don't need to fantasize about big bad football players beating you up because you disagree with me.
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Casper71
12/21/2015 12:01 AM
This discussion just shows why I say it's time to get a good JC QB and develop him for two years out. The guys currently on the roster are NOT going to get us there.
Last Edited: 12/21/2015 9:59:20 AM by Casper71
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bshot44
12/21/2015 9:42 AM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Different strategy, target 2016, defense wins championships. Ride that defensive front to their championship. Give them the best QB period, not one under development. Now we schedule a meeting with the 2016 seniors, you present your strategy, I will present mine. We will see who gets thrown under the bus. His initials might be C Money. I won't even help keep Sayles off you.

Man, you need therapy. Whatever it is that makes you so defensive about the slightest bit of criticism (or anything other than pollyannaism, even), it isn't healthy.
+1
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Mark Lembright '85
12/21/2015 9:57 AM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Different strategy, target 2016, defense wins championships. Ride that defensive front to their championship. Give them the best QB period, not one under development. Now we schedule a meeting with the 2016 seniors, you present your strategy, I will present mine. We will see who gets thrown under the bus. His initials might be C Money. I won't even help keep Sayles off you.

Man, you need therapy. Whatever it is that makes you so defensive about the slightest bit of criticism (or anything other than pollyannaism, even), it isn't healthy.


Here's the deal….I don't think we are going to win the MACC next year. I hope I'm wrong. I REALLY hope I'm wrong. But that's my opinion. And I think we will be in a better position to win it in 2017 if we can have solid QB play.

Again, that's an opinion. You don't have to subscribe to it. That's fine. Doesn't bother me. And I don't need to fantasize about big bad football players beating you up because you disagree with me.
I'm with CMoney on this one. Yes, dominant defense can win championships. However, defenses never win championships alone (and lets be honest-Ohio has a good defense but I wouldn't call it dominant); very good QB play is needed also.

In a championship season there will always be a time when the team is locked in a dead heat with the opponent, especially in the MACC game. In such a game the opponent probably has a very good defense also, so the deciding factor is often the QB-can he elevate his team, when the pressure's on, when the lights are at their brightest and the expectations are the greatest, can he put the team on his shoulders to win the game? Is Sprague that kind of QB? I sure don't see it.

Sure, I'd love to have a dominant defense. But the way football is played (and officiated) today, I'd much rather have the dominant QB.
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