I am proud of the players every year, I want what they want and that is to win a MAC, you really need to be real. You are not honest with yourself or you are immature. FS wants to be better than 8-5, We can beat everybody on our schedule. I want these young men to do something special and be celebrated for decades. I have no idea what you want. I don't just post the negative, I post the truth. If you can't handle the truth then you should go to a peewee league board where they hand out participation trophies.

+1

OK, I did the counting, and here is what I came up with. If you exclude games against Akron, Kent, Buffalo, Miami, UMass, and EMU, these are the MAC-only records of all the MAC teams (In other words, each team's record against only the subset of teams [NIU, Toledo, WMU, CMU, Ball State, Ohio, BG, Temple]:

NIU 29-8 .784
Toledo 26-13 .667
WMU 14-19 .424
Ohio 10-14 .417
Temple 5-7 .417
BG 12-17 .414
CMU 14-21 .400
Ball State .351
[Total to this point 123-123 .500]
Kent State 13-20 .394
Miami 6-25 .194
Buffalo 5-26 .161
EMU 5-36 .122
UMass 1-16 .059
Akron 1-29 .033
[Grand Total 154-275 .359]

The point of this data is to exclude the benefit of padding your record by playing only the "easy" teams. To get a win you have to beat one of the "top teams". Clearly two teams are out front of the rest, and then there is a pretty close grouping, with not much separation between WMU-Ohio-BG-CMU. All of these four have have some good years, and some not so good years, and thus they end up close to the same.

Ball State is the bottom of the top group, and Kent is the best of the rest, while Akron is incredibly bad by this measure.

????

bshot44 was the one that came up with the teams to exclude. Talk to him. I just did the math for him. Draw whatever conclusions you want from the data, but just use real data.

Guess I should've checked this thread before I spent the last two hours doing this...ha!

Here, in order by best MAC overall record.
Record vs "Top 8"...Record vs "bottom 6"...Overall MAC record

Top 8: NIU, UT, WMU, BG, OU, CMU, Ball, Temple
Bottom 6: Kent, Akron, UMass, EMU, Miami, UB

NIU
28-9...24-0...52-9

Toledo
25-13...16-2...41-15

BG
12-17...25-5...37-22

Ohio
11-14...25-8...36-22

CMU
15-21...18-3...33-24

WMU
15-19...14-8...29-27

Ball
13-24...15-4...28-28

Kent
13-20...13-10...26-30

Buffalo
6-25...15-9...21-34

Miami
6-25...13-13...19-38

Akron
1-29...14-12...15-41

EMU
5-36...4-11...9-47

Based on wins vs "Top 8"

NIU
Toledo
WMU
CMU
Kent
Ball
BG
Ohio
Buffalo
Miami
EMU
Akron

Ohio is 8th. And of those 11 wins, only 2 have come in last four years.

To me this points towards a middle of the pack MAC team. Not a top tier MAC team.

It's obvious both Ohio & BG benefit from playing in the bottom-feeding-filled East. 50 wins between them since 2009 vs bottom feeders!

Most losses vs "bottom 6"

Miami
Akron
EMU
Kent
Buffalo
Ohio
WMU
BG
Ball
CMU
Toledo
NIU

I think this is also telling. Ohio has 8 losses vs the bottom feeders. Not only are they struggling to beat the good teams, they tend to lose more to bad teams than other top tier MAC teams.

This was an interesting discovery as well....notice Ohio has played 33 games vs "bottom 6"....that's the most of any team in the league. They've also played the least amount of games vs "Top 7"...just 25. They have had the "easiest" schedule, yet they only have 2 MACC appearances since 2009.

Again, these are just facts.

But to me, it defines a middle of the pack MAC team. Not an top tier one...especially since 2012 (2-10 vs "top 8", 15-5 vs "bottom 6", 17-15 overall)

I know we all agree there is always room for improvement...but we are a lot further from the NIUs & UTs (and even BG last four years - 8-7 v T8, 19-1 v B6, 27-8 overall)

At best, I'll entertain a belief we are currently a distant 4th in the MAC...but I believe it's more like 6th (behind WMU & CMU)

Ultimately all these numbers show Ohio has regressed since 2011. The last four years have dropped us down the MAC food chain. We were top tier in 2009-11...we aren't anymore. We should be able to return there and stay there. No reason to fall back into the pack.

OHIO is 8th?! Declare your basis (bias).

Are you ranking OHIO's 11-14 (44% win percentage against the top 8) behind a team like Ball State's 13-24 (35%) or even BG's 12-17 (41%)?

I am agreeing to the fact that we beat the bottom feeders and had a weaker schedule. We can't say Ohio is a top for team when we only have two victories against MAC teams with winning records. I never disagreed with the numbers, I disagree with the picture being painted with the numbers.

You are right LC, the important years are ahead of us. We can and should be in the top tier of the MAC year in and year out, winning MACCs and Bowls. Let's do it Cats, it is time!

I submit, you are all working way too hard at this. 2014 vs 2015 is all I need. Can we keep it simple please? Wins 8 vs 6, up 33%. Quality wins vs; 10-3 bowl winning Marshall, 8-5 bowl winning Akron & 8-5 MAC West Champion & bowl team NIU.

Statistics 2014 vs 2015.
Scoring. 2014 Ohio/OPP 246/298, 2015 Ohio/OPP 358/329.
Points Per Game. 2014 Ohio/OPP 20.5/24.8, 2015 Ohio/OPP 27.5/25.3
First Downs. 2014 Ohio/OPP 233/246, 2015 Ohio/OPP 285/248
Rushing Yards. 2014 Ohio/OPP 1969/1595, 2015 Ohio/OPP 2352/2147
Passing Yards. 2014 Ohio/OPP 2474/3137, 2015 Ohio/OPP 3026/2723
Total Offense. 2014 Ohio/OPP 4443/4732, 2015 Ohio/OPP 5378/4910
Fumbles-Lost. 2014 Ohio Fumbles/Lost 24/14, 2015 Ohio Fumbles/Lost 9/4
Time of Possession. 2014 Ohio/OPP 29:48/30:12, 2015 Ohio/OPP 32:15/27:44
First Half Scoring. 2014 Ohio/OPP 115/169. 2015 Ohio/OPP 214/139
Average Attendance. Ohio 2014/2015 20515/21323

2014 Ohio better than opponent: Rushing Yards

2015 Ohio better than opponent: Scoring, Points Per Game, First Downs, Rushing Yards, Passing Yards,Total Offense, Time of Possession, First Half Scoring.

MAC leading attendance 21,323 per home game, up 800 per game.

I know BG, WMU & Buffalo, but, to use those games to define this season is to be blind to a great turn around that was 2015.

Considering that I never offered any interpretation of the numbers, other than pointing out that they fell into several neat groupings, that's a fairly disingenuous distinction. In fact, the only difference in how we presented the numbers is that bshot44 arranged them in ordinal order while I arranged them in in percentage order. Is 14-21 (.400) or 13-20 (.391) better than 10-14 (.417)? You decide. Apparently to bshot44 it is, but I kind of doubt that if Ohio only wins 3 of the next 9, or 4 of the next 15 games against top 8 teams anyone will think that's an improvement.

In the end, whether you look at total winning percentage in the MAC, wins against winning teams in the MAC, or wins against "top 8" teams, they all tell pretty much the same story. Slice it any way you like, and NIU is the top team in the MAC over the 2009-2015 timeframe, with Toledo clearly second. Behind those two, it's pretty close between the next grouping of teams. My personal inclination is to go with wins against winning teams because when you use the "top 8 method", a win over WMU in their awful 1-11 2013 season counts as good, while a win over the 2010 MAC Champs (Miami) counts for nothing.

You chose to view this program any way you want....everyone can....and we can all have different opinions.

You choose to just go from 2014-2015...that's fine.

I choose to take a larger sample size.

Was 2015 a good year in terms of improving over 2014? Of course it is.

But 2015 also had 3 horrific losses....eerily reminiscent of horrific losses in 2014, 2013 & 2012.

So for me, that matters. I can't just look at 2015 and say "Hey, we're 8-5 and that's better than 6-6 the year before...therefore the program is great"

I see a program that took a step in the right direction this year...but it's one step. If 2016 rolls around and we get smoked by BG, Team A & Team B again...well I don't think we've improved all that much.

It's a process. One year can't undo the rut this program has fallen into.

Just like 2009 alone didnt define the program as a top tier MAC program. It was a culmination of 2009, 2010 & 2011 that put us in that conversation...2 MACC appearances and thisCLOSE to a 3rd (thanks inexplicable Kent loss in 2010)

Ohio was an elite MAC program from 2009-2011. Since 2012, they are a middle of the road MAC program. The numbers back that up.

I think we are trending a better direction at the end of this season than we were in any of the last 3...but it's how they build off that in 2016 & beyond that will determine if this is a elite, top tier MAC program like NIU & UT (and recently BG)

Another 7-5, 8-4 (4-4 or 5-3 MAC) season in 2016 will cement to me that Ohio is a middle of the road MAC program.

It wasn't long ago, we were elite in this league. So we know it can be done. That's the standard I choose to hold this program to. I'd like to see them return there and stay. Until then, I'll continue to be a bit disappointed.

Your choice. Carry your baggage around for as long as you like.