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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Final Thoughts On OHIO vs MAC Since 2009
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oldkatz
12/31/2015 4:34 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
But it is the whole truth. It's fact based (again, I presume) and without any spin. That apparently is what you're uncomfortable with. You don't want this factual data presented without your spin: that this team sucks. Our coaching staff sucks. Our players are subpar.

It's only data. Straight up data. How is that not the whole truth? Interpretation is in the minds of the readers. Let them read it and come to their own conclusions.

Okay. I'll do it your way, the 'don't have my M.O. way.'

OHIO led the 2011 MACC game 20-0.

Therefore, everything about the program is perfect and we won that game.

Don't bother me with further or more specific or more relevant facts.

That 'whole truth' thing is not my thing. I have a different point of view and agenda.

Mo, it gets old: https://youtu.be/ncbEucjsNFU
And this is from your pal and only supporter during your long ago banishment.
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bshot44
12/31/2015 6:15 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
OHIO led the 2011 MACC game 20-0.

Therefore, everything about the program is perfect and we won that game.

Don't bother me with further or more specific or more relevant facts.

That 'whole truth' thing is not my thing. I have a different point of view and agenda.
The data 71 posted is the "whole truth." It's not half the truth, as your example above. It's the "whole truth." You are, apparently, not comfortable with that.

What follows that data is interpretation, which is OPINION.

Data = fact
Interpretation = opinion

I think we're making progress here, Monroe. Same time tomorrow?
Pretty sure my breakdown going deeper into those facts were indeed facts too.

And I interpreted those stats/facts to form my opinion
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Robert Fox
12/31/2015 6:45 PM
Yes bshot, you did offer some additional facts. That is true. Winning percentage against winning teams, winning percentage against losing teams. All facts.

Once you start labeling as "average" or "just above average," that's opinion.

I think 71 was trying to provide the entire body of work and recognize that, overall, it's not too bad. I sincerely doubt that 71 is also saying "everything is perfect! I wouldn't ask for anything more!"

Just acknowledging that, on the whole, things are certainly not in a horrible free-fall.
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Casper71
12/31/2015 7:06 PM
I am sure not going to get into this discussion in too much depth. All I will say is 30 of 34 people on bobcatattack think a Mac championship is more important than a bowl win. Until that Mac championship occurs, I will continue to say we have not succeeded. Sure we are better than we were in the 80s and 90s but that is not the point. The point is can we win a Mac championship?
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L.C.
12/31/2015 7:44 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
...That makes 25-8 vs. the 6 worst MAC teams......32-27 vs the rest of the league.

That's .542 winning %........just above average.
...

Actually, no. You have some serious math issues here. Here's an estimate for you. If you figure that the average MAC record overall has to be .500, and that the average MAC record against the six worst teams is about .750, then I estimate that the average MAC record against the top 7 teams should come about about .290. Ohio's record of .542 would be well above average, nearly twice the average, actually.

If someone has the time to compute each teams actual records against the top 7 teams, it would be interesting to see where Ohio stands. I would guess Ohio is probably 3rd, behind NIU and Toledo by this measure, too.

bshot44 wrote:expand_more
Ok....feel free to fire away and take about how negative I am. I'm just pointing out facts.
Take another look at your math before you reach any dramatic conclusions.
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allen
12/31/2015 8:00 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...That makes 25-8 vs. the 6 worst MAC teams......32-27 vs the rest of the league.

That's .542 winning %........just above average.
...

Actually, no. You have some serious math issues here. Here's an estimate for you. If you figure that the average MAC record overall has to be .500, and that the average MAC record against the six worst teams is about .750, then I estimate that the average MAC record against the top 7 teams should come about about .290. Ohio's record of .542 would be well above average, nearly twice the average, actually.

If someone has the time to compute each teams actual records against the top 7 teams, it would be interesting to see where Ohio stands. I would guess Ohio is probably 3rd, behind NIU and Toledo by this measure, too.

Ok....feel free to fire away and take about how negative I am. I'm just pointing out facts.
Take another look at your math before you reach any dramatic conclusions.

How many MAC teams did we beat that had a winning record during that timeframe?
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L.C.
12/31/2015 8:29 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
How many MAC teams did we beat that had a winning record during that timeframe?

You posted above that Ohio was 6-20 against teams with winning records. I have no reason to doubt that you computed it correctly, but how does that compare with other MAC teams?
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allen
12/31/2015 8:49 PM
Come on L.C, who cares, that is a horrible record. Other schools have lost coaches, they have somewhat of an excuse.
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L.C.
12/31/2015 9:22 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Come on L.C, who cares, that is a horrible record. Other schools have lost coaches, they have somewhat of an excuse.

Is 6-20 horrible? What is the average? Do you know? (Hint: It's not close to .500)

I'm computing the records of various MAC teams against teams with winning records right now to find out. I've only done 2009 and 2010, and I know already that 6-20 is not right, but even 6-20 appears to be about twice the average.
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allen
12/31/2015 9:54 PM
CMU, WMU, BGSU, Toledo and Northern Illinois have more wins against MAC teams with winning records during that time and Ball State is tied with us. I know that this is satisfactory to many, I think we need to have done better, seeing we have had the same coach. I still like FS.
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Robert Fox
12/31/2015 10:03 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
I am sure not going to get into this discussion in too much depth. All I will say is 30 of 34 people on bobcatattack think a Mac championship is more important than a bowl win. Until that Mac championship occurs, I will continue to say we have not succeeded. Sure we are better than we were in the 80s and 90s but that is not the point. The point is can we win a Mac championship?
Can we? Yes.
Will we? Yes.

It's only a matter of time.
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Bcat2
12/31/2015 10:09 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
CMU, WMU, BGSU, Toledo and Northern Illinois have more wins against MAC teams with winning records during that time and Ball State is tied with us. I know that this is satisfactory to many, I think we need to have done better, seeing we have had the same coach. I still like FS.
Please explain, why exactly should "we" have done better. Were teams that started this race ahead of Ohio supposed to step aside? Really, I am interested. Why should "we" have done better? On the "we" stuff, if this is to include fans, sorry, I have been letting "us" down. My lifting, running and diet, not good.
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L.C.
12/31/2015 10:41 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
CMU, WMU, BGSU, Toledo and Northern Illinois have more wins against MAC teams with winning records during that time and Ball State is tied with us. I know that this is satisfactory to many, I think we need to have done better, seeing we have had the same coach. I still like FS.

I'll leave it to others to decide what is "satisfactory" or "horrible". I just want to see people use real facts. Most people erroneously think that the average record against teams with winning records is supposed to be .500, but here are the real numbers that I computed for each team, from 2009-2015 for games against MAC teams with winning records:

NIU 16-8 .667
Toledo 11-16 .407
CMU 9-16 .360
Ohio 8-15 .348
BG 10-19 .345
WMU 6-19 .240
Ball St 7-23 .233
Kent 6-21 .222
Buffalo 3-23 .115
Miami 2-25 .074
Akron 1-23 .042
Temple 0-5 .000
UMass 0-13 .000
EMU 0-33 .000
Total 79-259 .234

I have no idea where your 6-20 for Ohio came from, by the way. On a year by year basis, for Ohio I get:
2009 3-1
2010 2-1
2011 1-2
2012 0-3
2013 0-2
2014 0-4
2015 2-2
Total 8-15
Last Edited: 12/31/2015 10:44:09 PM by L.C.
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bshot44
12/31/2015 10:48 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...That makes 25-8 vs. the 6 worst MAC teams......32-27 vs the rest of the league.

That's .542 winning %........just above average.
...

Actually, no. You have some serious math issues here. Here's an estimate for you. If you figure that the average MAC record overall has to be .500, and that the average MAC record against the six worst teams is about .750, then I estimate that the average MAC record against the top 7 teams should come about about .290. Ohio's record of .542 would be well above average, nearly twice the average, actually.

If someone has the time to compute each teams actual records against the top 7 teams, it would be interesting to see where Ohio stands. I would guess Ohio is probably 3rd, behind NIU and Toledo by this measure, too.

Ok....feel free to fire away and take about how negative I am. I'm just pointing out facts.
Take another look at your math before you reach any dramatic conclusions.
C'mon my friend. You have to know that Akron, UB, Kent, Miami and EMU's record vs those teams is so incredibly bad that it wears down that number.

We are NOT good vs good MAC teams last 3 years. That is indisputable when u lay down the facts.

I don't have time now....but will happily do that computation tomorrow

If I'm wrong, I'll happily (and surprisingly) admit it
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Bcat2
12/31/2015 10:53 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
CMU, WMU, BGSU, Toledo and Northern Illinois have more wins against MAC teams with winning records during that time and Ball State is tied with us. I know that this is satisfactory to many, I think we need to have done better, seeing we have had the same coach. I still like FS.

I'll leave it to others to decide what is "satisfactory" or "horrible". I just want to see people use real facts. Most people erroneously think that the average record against teams with winning records is supposed to be .500, but here are the real numbers that I computed for each team, from 2009-2015 for games against MAC teams with winning records:

NIU 16-8 .667
Toledo 11-16 .407
CMU 9-16 .360
Ohio 8-15 .348
BG 10-19 .345
WMU 6-19 .240
Ball St 7-23 .233
Kent 6-21 .222
Buffalo 3-23 .115
Miami 2-25 .074
Akron 1-23 .042
Temple 0-5 .000
UMass 0-13 .000
EMU 0-33 .000
Total 79-259 .234

I have no idea where your 6-20 for Ohio came from, by the way. On a year by year basis, for Ohio I get:
2009 3-1
2010 2-1
2011 1-2
2012 0-3
2013 0-2
2014 0-4
2015 2-2
Total 8-15
allen. Now again the question is please explain, why exactly should "we" have done better. Were teams that started this race ahead of Ohio supposed to step aside? Really, I am interested. Why should "we" have done better?
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allen
12/31/2015 11:06 PM
Other teams like Central Michigan, Northern Ill, Toledo and BGSU lost coaches, had to implement different systems and we have had the same system. If Temple did not leave, we would have been lower.
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OhioCatFan
12/31/2015 11:11 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Other teams like Central Michigan, Northern Ill, Toledo and BGSU lost coaches, had to implement different systems and we have had the same system. If Temple did not leave, we would have been lower.
Two problems, here:

1. We have not stayed static, but Frank has implemented new systems on both defense and offense during his tenure.

2. Frank owned Temple during its time in the conference.
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L.C.
12/31/2015 11:16 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
C'mon my friend. You have to know that Akron, UB, Kent, Miami and EMU's record vs those teams is so incredibly bad that it wears down that number.

We are NOT good vs good MAC teams last 3 years. That is indisputable when u lay down the facts.

I don't have time now....but will happily do that computation tomorrow

If I'm wrong, I'll happily (and surprisingly) admit it

I do have a math issue of my own, by the way. My estimate for an average .290 win percentage against the top 7 teams includes the bottom five against the top 7. If you are going to toss the bottom five completely out of the equation, then you will be back at .500 average for the top 7 teams playing only games against other members of the top 7.

So, just guestimating, Ohio's record of 32-27 against the top 7 would probably put it 3rd of the top 7, or 3rd of 13, if you include the bottom 5 and UMass. That's not too surprising, and it's exactly the same place that the overall win percentage puts it.

Again, I'll leave it to others to decide if 3rd of 13 is "horrible", "unacceptable", "satisfactory", or whatever other adjective they choose. I just want to see people basing their adjectives on solid facts.
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allen
12/31/2015 11:16 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Other teams like Central Michigan, Northern Ill, Toledo and BGSU lost coaches, had to implement different systems and we have had the same system. If Temple did not leave, we would have been lower.
Two problems, here:

1. We have not stayed static, but Frank has implemented new systems on both defense and offense during his tenure.

2. Frank owned Temple during its time in the conference.
FS has been a good coach, we need to get over the hump. FS has change things, but he has had some advantages.
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Bcat2
12/31/2015 11:16 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Other teams like Central Michigan, Northern Ill, Toledo and BGSU lost coaches, had to implement different systems and we have had the same system. If Temple did not leave, we would have been lower.
allen. Weak, really weak. Winning programs don't lose momentum changing coaches. Usually an assistant continues what was working. If it ain't broke .... Do better. Why should Ohio have done better? Should teams that started this race ahead of Ohio just step aside? allen you are having a bad day. Happy new year.
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Bcat2
12/31/2015 11:22 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Other teams like Central Michigan, Northern Ill, Toledo and BGSU lost coaches, had to implement different systems and we have had the same system. If Temple did not leave, we would have been lower.
Two problems, here:

1. We have not stayed static, but Frank has implemented new systems on both defense and offense during his tenure.

2. Frank owned Temple during its time in the conference.
FS has been a good coach, we need to get over the hump. FS has change things, but he has had some advantages.
allen. Are you coming off, backing up from "horrible?" Solich has had "advantages." Really. Can't wait for what new misinformation you have.
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allen
12/31/2015 11:36 PM
Bcat2, your post are horrible. Here you are arguing about what has happened since 2009. We can all pick years and skew the data to our advantage. FS is not horrible, our performance against winning MAC programs has been horrible. Programs do have to adjust to losing coaches. CMU went from 8-0 to 1-7, please Bcat2 pick another nemesis, because I am tired of defeating you. It's like taking candy from a baby. Your logic completely goes out the window because of your emotional attachment. I don't know if you are a coach or a water boy, but you need to get a hold of your emotions.
Last Edited: 12/31/2015 11:43:03 PM by allen
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Bcat2
1/1/2016 12:13 AM
allen wrote:expand_more
Bcat2, your post are horrible. Here you are arguing about what has happened since 2009. We can all pick years and skew the data to our advantage. FS is not horrible, our performance against winning MAC programs has been horrible. Programs do have to adjust to losing coaches. CMU went from 8-0 to 1-7, please Bcat2 pick another nemesis, because I am tired of defeating you. It's like taking candy from a baby. Your logic completely goes out the window because of your emotional attachment. I don't know if you are a coach or a water boy, but you need to get a hold of your emotions.
Still waiting for you to address why exactly should "we" have done better. Were teams that started this race ahead of Ohio supposed to step aside? Really, I am interested. Why should "we" have done better? Oh. now about those advantages?
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allen
1/1/2016 12:26 AM
We went 2-13 against winning Mac programs in the last four years. We have lost 14 two touchdown leads since 2009. We celebrated beating the third best team in the MAC this year. We lost 30 to three MAC opponents. There is room for improvement.
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Bcat2
1/1/2016 1:26 AM
allen wrote:expand_more
We went 2-13 against winning Mac programs in the last four years. We have lost 14 two touchdown leads since 2009. We celebrated beating the third best team in the MAC this year. We lost 30 to three MAC opponents. There is room for improvement.
I get it. You know every negative. Good for you. Lots of baggage to carry around. Lots of it is getting dated. Ohio also beat Marshall and Akron who are good teams. 8-5 was a good season. If you bought Ohio last year at six, it is up to 8 now, that would be 33%, good gain in one year. Again, why should have Ohio done better? Are you really expecting the teams that started this race ahead to just step aside? What are these mysterious advantages Solich had? This season Ohio beat three bowl teams. When you say there is room for improvement do you think there is no one working on it? allen I am pretty sure Solich and the staff are working their butts off on our behalf. This team should be proud of this season. Too bad that were they to visit their team's "fan" board all they would find is a you knocking down anything positive.
Last Edited: 1/1/2016 8:16:32 AM by Bcat2
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