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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Is Saul Phillips really the right fit for Ohio ?
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Gman
5/23/2018 11:11 AM
longtiimelurker wrote:expand_more
Gman is a lot of things.....a troll ain’t one of them.
Is this our old, lovable Gman or someone who has taken the name?

The one and only ! Don't you just love people with higher educations pointing out the miss using of words lol FACT FACT FACT I'd think they would have better things to do. well let's see. Saul is 67 & 60 was a bottom feeder in the MAC after his 4th Season. now that's a FACT !
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shabamon
5/23/2018 11:30 AM
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
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allen
5/23/2018 11:46 AM
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I'm gonna say it like this.....was John Groce a good fit for Illinois? Yes he was, just unfortunate how many times the witch doctor hit his team in the ACL every year, in particular his point guard.

I'm looking at Saul and saying the same thing. By year 5-6, a program has his players and system in place. Jaaron was meant to hold the team over at point guard until this year when Saul could get a point guard. The guy wasn't a permanent fit and let's be real, how many of you could have called him turning into a stud for us? The fact that the process was sped up by one year with his move to Michigan makes it a different dynamic for the team. As I have said before and will say again, this is the year the criticism can start freely.

Is it the 21st Century of win in three years with the previous regime's players and hope you survive your job? Yes it is. Doesn't mean it has to happen to us. So let this year play out and then I will let the wolves freely eat. Until then, let's see what Kirk does this year in terms of his progression, because I feel pretty good about having Block, Dartis, Taylor, and Carter back to complement Kirk in his growth.
Can’t argue with this, but he has to recruit better
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shabamon
5/23/2018 11:56 AM
I'd be interested to know what people think qualifies as recruiting misses. I think there is one Saul recruit that was a clear miss, and I think we all know who I'm talking about. I don't want to call Gareri or Butler misses because we don't get to see them as sophomores. Plus Gareri missed so much game and practice time due to injury. Does anyone consider Mike Laster to be a miss? I think ideally you would like players to contribute something positive and relatively consistent by year two, but Laster wasn't really doing that until halfway through year three, then blossomed into something special this past year.
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Gman
5/23/2018 12:23 PM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
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Recovering Journalist
5/23/2018 12:38 PM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
He was a big hire and a financial stretch for the school. Most of us were excited to get him. He took a team that went 97-46 the four prior years and after four years he took them to 67-60... all while earning the highest salary in the league. Those are facts, and those are metrics that seem to matter to Schaus. As I said before, he'd already be gone if we had the money to send him packing. He gets another year, and every fan wants him to do well in it, but I'm sure not holding my breath based on the prior four years.
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100%Cat
5/23/2018 1:36 PM
Gman wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
And how well-regarded is Jim Christian around these parts for his stint in Athens?
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Buckeye to Bobcat
5/23/2018 3:23 PM
Gman wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
Yet Jim Christian would have been in a worse boat in year 3 if he had stuck around. Mo was going to Iowa State and a lot of other guys were out of here if not for him leaving. That is FACT and can tell you that one first hand.
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Recovering Journalist
5/23/2018 3:42 PM
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Yet Jim Christian would have been in a worse boat in year 3 if he had stuck around. Mo was going to Iowa State and a lot of other guys were out of here if not for him leaving. That is FACT and can tell you that one first hand.
I'll take what you say at face value, but you also have to recognize that Jim Christian has a 186-81 MAC record. Saul Phillips has a 34-38 MAC record. Which one of those guys knows how to recruit for competing in the MAC?

Christian brought in Ndour, and based on his extensive track record it's safe to say he would have found other high-level JUCOs. He's reviled here because he had the temerity to go to the ACC for well over $1 million per year. Even if everything about the team quitting on him is true, he knew how to win in this league, and he would have kept winning here had Miami's old AD hired him at BC.
Last Edited: 5/23/2018 4:24:55 PM by Recovering Journalist
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Gman
5/23/2018 4:14 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
And how well-regarded is Jim Christian around these parts for his stint in Athens?

Truthfully, Jim Christian wasn't that well regarded while he was here but that didn't stop him from winning 49 games in 2 years.
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Ohio69
5/23/2018 4:14 PM
Gman wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=100%Cat] TROLL !!! LMAO If If If you are doing a lot of Iffing,I'd say I was attending Ohio Basketball games while you was crappin in diapers....
And now you are on the internet calling a coach a failure and trading insults with other Bobcat fans. Impressive. (Sigh)

And you have been a Saint in all of your 2519 Posts on here Ohio69 ? practice what you preach, Saul Phillips HAS been a FAILURE, you can slice it anyway you want, but getting paid over 2 Million dollars in 4 years for a 67 & 60 record and nothing to show for it, at a Mid-Major level is a big deal and a failure.
I ain't no saint and I sure ain't no savior and every other christmas I practice good behavior.

(Also, touche.)

I take the injuries to Campbell and Carter and just about everyone this last year into consideration. Huge injuries for mid-major programs. You don't. I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Go Bobcats.
Last Edited: 5/23/2018 4:17:49 PM by Ohio69
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Mark Lembright '85
5/23/2018 4:40 PM
Gman wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
And how well-regarded is Jim Christian around these parts for his stint in Athens?

Truthfully, Jim Christian wasn't that well regarded while he was here but that didn't stop him from winning 49 games in 2 years.
One could argue Christian won those games with players recruited by the prior coach who was able to take that same team (for the most part) to the Sweet 16.
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Kevin Finnegan
5/23/2018 4:51 PM
I wonder what people consider the most important job of a basketball head coach at OHIO. Is it:

--recruiting
--player development
--player retention
--in-game strategy/system

I think that there are some wins in the Saul recruiting (Carter, Dartis, Laster, Kirk) and some losses (no need to name them, we know them). In player development, this one is hard to judge. Laster improved over his time, Dartis has been consistent without a major leap forward, we don't know about Carter, BVP, Kirk, etc. Player retention has been concerning, as players like Ryan Taylor, Gareri, Jaaron, Culver, etc. have left early without seeing what they could become. As for in-game strategy/system, I'd be the last to judge the effectiveness of this. All I can say is that the current system is not one built to put butts in the seats.
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Gman
5/23/2018 5:52 PM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=shabamon] 67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
And how well-regarded is Jim Christian around these parts for his stint in Athens?

Truthfully, Jim Christian wasn't that well regarded while he was here but that didn't stop him from winning 49 games in 2 years.
One could argue Christian won those games with players recruited by the prior coach who was able to take that same team (for the most part) to the Sweet 16.

One tends to forget that it was Christian that brought in Campbell, Setty and Ndour. Antonio Campbell was Jim Christian's recruit.
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Obc2
5/23/2018 7:34 PM
I expected to go to March Madness year after Sweet 16 and Tony's Sr year. stuff happens...we went to last 2-3 madnesses when I didn't expect it.

I'm still a big Saul fan and supporter.
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
5/23/2018 7:49 PM
finnOhio wrote:expand_more
I wonder what people consider the most important job of a basketball head coach at OHIO. Is it:

--recruiting
--player development
--player retention
--in-game strategy/system

I think that there are some wins in the Saul recruiting (Carter, Dartis, Laster, Kirk) and some losses (no need to name them, we know them). In player development, this one is hard to judge. Laster improved over his time, Dartis has been consistent without a major leap forward, we don't know about Carter, BVP, Kirk, etc. Player retention has been concerning, as players like Ryan Taylor, Gareri, Jaaron, Culver, etc. have left early without seeing what they could become. As for in-game strategy/system, I'd be the last to judge the effectiveness of this. All I can say is that the current system is not one built to put butts in the seats.
Systems don't put butts in seats. Winning does.

It doesn't matter which a coach is better at, just as long as they are winning.

We had a disappointing year this year, but people forget we lost to the MAC champs in the semi-finals in back-to-back years before that. In 2017 without our star player.

Saul can coach. He has proven it in the past.
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BobcatSports
5/23/2018 8:48 PM
So true winning cures lots of ills. I get a kick out of all the crowd is down due to the “system”, as if Saul has reinstituted Dean Smith’s 4 corners stall offense. I’ll venture you don’t have more than a handful of “experts” that have any earthly idea what “system”is even being run.

As I said winning cures many ills including attendance. It helps greatly IF the cast is healthy you are attempting to cure the ills with. Go Bobcats!
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The Better Ohio Bobcat
5/23/2018 10:30 PM
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:expand_more
I wonder what people consider the most important job of a basketball head coach at OHIO. Is it:

--recruiting
--player development
--player retention
--in-game strategy/system

I think that there are some wins in the Saul recruiting (Carter, Dartis, Laster, Kirk) and some losses (no need to name them, we know them). In player development, this one is hard to judge. Laster improved over his time, Dartis has been consistent without a major leap forward, we don't know about Carter, BVP, Kirk, etc. Player retention has been concerning, as players like Ryan Taylor, Gareri, Jaaron, Culver, etc. have left early without seeing what they could become. As for in-game strategy/system, I'd be the last to judge the effectiveness of this. All I can say is that the current system is not one built to put butts in the seats.
Systems don't put butts in seats. Winning does.

It doesn't matter which a coach is better at, just as long as they are winning.

We had a disappointing year this year, but people forget we lost to the MAC champs in the semi-finals in back-to-back years before that. In 2017 without our star player.

Saul can coach. He has proven it in the past.
Your telling me a fun, exciting offense wouldn't put more butts in the seats. While that sweet 16 team won a LOT they were fun to watch and that is a big reason why people came to the games.
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TWT
5/24/2018 7:47 AM
Gman wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=100%Cat] TROLL !!! LMAO If If If you are doing a lot of Iffing,I'd say I was attending Ohio Basketball games while you was crappin in diapers....
And now you are on the internet calling a coach a failure and trading insults with other Bobcat fans. Impressive. (Sigh)

And you have been a Saint in all of your 2519 Posts on here Ohio69 ? practice what you preach, Saul Phillips HAS been a FAILURE, you can slice it anyway you want, but getting paid over 2 Million dollars in 4 years for a 67 & 60 record and nothing to show for it, at a Mid-Major level is a big deal and a failure.
Its not so much what Saul is being paid but more what Ohio is getting for its money. There is the recruits and then there is the coaching. Saul is not pulling in the recruits. Last year Ohio gave up 75.9ppg on defense good for #268 in the country. I don't see evidence that he is putting in place a system that can get the most out of his unheralded players.
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100%Cat
5/24/2018 7:56 AM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
67-60 is a fact
4th year is a fact
Bottom feeder is an opinion. By what metric?
Failure is an opinion. By what metric?
Program is in worse shape than it was four years ago is an opinion. By what metric?
Bottom Feeder in the MAC in his 4th year Ohio finishes last this year = Fact - pay attention

Ohio had Jim Christian before Saul Phillips, Christian won 49 games in 2 years Saul has won 67 in 4 years, I'm not making this stuff up its Facts Shabamon
And how well-regarded is Jim Christian around these parts for his stint in Athens?

Truthfully, Jim Christian wasn't that well regarded while he was here but that didn't stop him from winning 49 games in 2 years.
One could argue Christian won those games with players recruited by the prior coach who was able to take that same team (for the most part) to the Sweet 16.
One could also argue that Christian did much more with that group during regular season play, whereas Groce shined with them in postseason play. Groce never consistently won on the road, Christian did. Groce never won a regular season conference title, Christian did. One could also argue that there's clearly no guarantee that even Groce would have gotten back to the tournament the next year.
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shabamon
5/24/2018 9:30 AM
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:expand_more
I wonder what people consider the most important job of a basketball head coach at OHIO. Is it:

--recruiting
--player development
--player retention
--in-game strategy/system

I think that there are some wins in the Saul recruiting (Carter, Dartis, Laster, Kirk) and some losses (no need to name them, we know them). In player development, this one is hard to judge. Laster improved over his time, Dartis has been consistent without a major leap forward, we don't know about Carter, BVP, Kirk, etc. Player retention has been concerning, as players like Ryan Taylor, Gareri, Jaaron, Culver, etc. have left early without seeing what they could become. As for in-game strategy/system, I'd be the last to judge the effectiveness of this. All I can say is that the current system is not one built to put butts in the seats.
Systems don't put butts in seats. Winning does.

It doesn't matter which a coach is better at, just as long as they are winning.

We had a disappointing year this year, but people forget we lost to the MAC champs in the semi-finals in back-to-back years before that. In 2017 without our star player.

Saul can coach. He has proven it in the past.
Your telling me a fun, exciting offense wouldn't put more butts in the seats. While that sweet 16 team won a LOT they were fun to watch and that is a big reason why people came to the games.
We were scoring at will in 2016, so I'd like to know what you mean by an exciting offense. Maybe you want to look flashy in the process? You want a Devaughn Washington or Maurice Ndour type so you can see something amazing while we score 80+?
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oldkatz
5/24/2018 10:30 AM
I, for one, think Saul is a great fit for Athens and OU. Troll that comment up if you choose, but the guy can coach and has proved it.
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OhioCatFan
5/24/2018 10:52 AM
oldkatz wrote:expand_more
I, for one, think Saul is a great fit for Athens and OU. Troll that comment up if you choose, but the guy can coach and has proved it.
The old rice-paddy grunt has spoken wisely, grasshoppers. Listen up.

Meanwhile, Go Navy beat Army!
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
5/24/2018 11:25 AM
The better Ohio Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Your telling me a fun, exciting offense wouldn't put more butts in the seats. While that sweet 16 team won a LOT they were fun to watch and that is a big reason why people came to the games.
We play a very fast tempo now. 44th fastest tempo in the nation last year, that's higher than any year under Groce. You probably just wish we had more guys that dunked a lot of Ndour and Devaughn Washington right?

That's not really a different style or a different offense, that's just having different players.
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Gman
5/24/2018 11:42 AM
oldkatz wrote:expand_more
I, for one, think Saul is a great fit for Athens and OU. Troll that comment up if you choose, but the guy can coach and has proved it.
oldkatz, I respect the hell out of you, I'd give you a kidney if you needed one, But Saul might fit the culture of Athens and of OU, but for his salary, put with the 67 & 60 record and 34 & 38 in the MAC in 4 years, he is not getting the job done.
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