So if Groce had DJ Cooper transfer before that 4th season and Walt Offutt go down with a season ending injury before conference play, he had enough depth on that team to still win all those games?

Go away, troll.

Gman is a lot of things.....a troll ain’t one of them.

Actually, GMAN, it's an opinion, not a fact. His record is 67-60, which is a winning percentage of .584. He's struggled, yes, but he's also had two 20 win seasons in four years. He finished 2nd in the division in his 2nd and 3rd seasons, and likely could've done similarly with good health last year. I'm not willing to go so far as to say he's been a success, but I think stating he's been a failure and that such a designation is fact is a bit extreme.

The statement that you shouldn't have a losing season in your 4th year because the players are your players doesn't hold water either. Check the following:

Mike Krzyzewski's 5th year at Army: 9-17....he was then hired that offseason to coach at Duke. Good thing for Duke they had faith, even when after his first three years, his record was 38-47.

Enough with the injury excuse.

Let's see hmmmmmm was Jim Snyder making over 2 Million total dollars over those 4 years ? NO ! Saul has made over 2 million in his 4 years for what ? a 67 and 60 record. Its a new era where you produce or be replaced. Do you all think Ohio has got 2 million worth out of Saul ? I for one right now say NO

And now you are on the internet calling a coach a failure and trading insults with other Bobcat fans. Impressive. (Sigh)

Gman, I've probably watch the Bobcats at least as long as you have, if not just a little bit longer, so I'm not one of the wet-behind-the-ears fans that you were referring to earlier. I respectfully disagree with your assessment. I think that the season-ending injuries to Campbell and then the following year to Carter have been devastating to the program. And, last year, we often had half the team in the walking wounded category. If either Campbell or Carter had not been injured, I think we would have won the MAC in the year they were injured. That's, of course, speculation, but I don't think we've yet seen how good Saul Ball can be. I'm betting this year you'll see complete turn around. If not, I'll be in your corner asking for a new coach, but until then I'm going to be my usual optimistic OHIO Bobcat fan. Go OHIO!

What a great country we live in, where fellow Bobcats (who can now be legally hunted according to Arkley of the Messenger) can agree to disagree, even though we all have what is in the best interests of Ohio at heart.

It seems pretty clear that Saul has at least another year at the helm of the Bobcats; after all, this is not pro basketball, where coaches get terminated regularly during the middle of the season.

However, Saul and company need to avoid some Cardinal Sins if he and company are going to be here much longer:

Number one: You are not allowed to go 14 - 17 and have the likes of Mount St. Mary, Coppin State, Prairie View A & M, and Northwestern Ohio on your schedule. (I would have included Capital too, but it was an exhibition game.)

Number 2: I don't care if Toledo has the next Lebron James, Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant on their roster and all at the same time; they are not allowed to come into the Convo and give the 'Cats a beat down in the form of a 91 to 57 loss.

Number 3: I don't care if Buffalo has an entire team full of Genetically engineered Cyborgs and force you to play them outside and in a raging blizzard and at one hundred degrees below zero; they are not allowed to give Ohio a 108 to 82 beat down, even if it was on their home court.

Number 4: It is never okay to be beaten by that despicable rival in Oxford (who will remain unnamed) in the first round of the MAC tournament, especially after you have already beaten them twice over the regular season.

Number 5: The only way that a losing record during the regular season in the MAC is even remotely okay (injuries or not) is if you sweep the MAC tournament, and at least make it to the Sweet Sixteen in the NCAA tournament.

Number 6: Either cease your daily coaching show or stop making excuses for bad performances whether they are injury plagued or not. You are the head coach, getting paid a lot of money, so take responsibility and start getting results.

I think that about covers it. Any other suggestions?

John Groce wasn't a good fit for Illinois, that's why he is coaching at Akron, John couldn't recruit good enough players to compete in the Big 10 and it cost him his job, Illinois wasn't going to pay Groce millions to be bottom feeders of the Big 10.

If Groce's teams could have stayed healthy at point guard, then he would have been winning 20+ games, and was doing pretty good on the recruiting trail despite his precarious position.

I'm over here laughing at everyone who doesn't understand what a fact is.

The real issue could possibly be instead of the track record of the four years under his belt here, the trajectory of future "talent" being recruited lately. These new ones will be the bulk of the roster in a couple of years unless they transfer to Walsh or Trevecca Nazarene. There are at least 3 new players arriving with a number of question marks. Maybe more than three. On paper, they don't seem like an upgrade over the 3 that just transferred out. If this is repeated next early signing period, it should be taken into consideration at the end of the season when analyzing whether to keep Saul or pick a new direction. Somewhere along the line, a MAC program has to get back to recruiting higher level talent or risk to become a long-time doormat in the conference.

And whether Saul snaps out of it and rebuilds the roster with higher talent or somebody else comes in and does it, there will be a season or two of unpleasant results, so if you think the students don't turn out now...

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The Saul club may now use this one post as a scapegoat to try to discredit legit concern for the direction of the program. Break out your torches and pitchforks as needed. Won't bother me.