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Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:03 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Here is what I mean. For rough numbers: let's say total athletics spend is $18M with revenues of $3M $2M from football) meaning university budget of $15M. So you cut football at $5M but lose $2M of revenue and add $.5M to basketball. Your spend is now $13.5M but your budget (support) from the university us $12.5M. So you've cut  28% of your spend but only 17% of your budget. Are there net savings? Yes. Good luck getting that $.5M add-back approved is what I'm saying.


I agree that it isn't a likely scenario, but the point was just that it was possible, even if unlikely. 

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
First of all, you haven't told me when the "arms race" started or any proof that there is one (that football net spend has grown as a greater percentage than basketball). I'm not being facetious about this. It's kind of the basis for the argument.


I thought that the MAC's increased emphasis on football was clearly publicized back in the late-90s or early-00s.  The conference front office made a big deal about increasing the membership's commitment to Division I-A football, roughly around the time of the talk of an attendance-based demotion to I-AA land.  Do you remember things differently?

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I don't see that we have "fallen behind". I see that we are behind (if schools account for them similarly). Maybe I missed it but where did you show the slide in basketball expenditure? As you acknowledged earlier, a CAA team hired a MAC coach back around 1997. So they must have been investing more back then and I'm guessing that was pre-arms race.


I'm going to work on tracking down the data, but in the interim and just to be clear, your position is that our basketball funding compared to the Horizon and Colonial has not changed appreciably in the last 10-15 years (i.e., that we are being outspent by roughly the same percentage now as we have been for a decade or more)?  

And again, the fact that a CAA team hired a MAC coach does not prove anything about overall conference spending.  Setting aside the plethora of personal factors that can be involved in such a move, as with the Horizon coach bolting for the Toledo job, that move can be explained by the fact that Larranaga was fleeing the lowest budget MAC hoops squad for an upper-level CAA job.  That does not mean that, on the whole, the CAA was investing more than the MAC on hoops back in the late-90s.  At most it would mean that George Mason was in a better budgetary position versus the rest of the CAA than BGSU was versus the rest of the MAC, although even that is a stretch to conclude on the basis of the move alone.

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Again, you speak to prioritizing football I guess hoping it becomes fact. I'm waiting for evidence of that. What I do know is that conference affiliations are driven by football (see this summer when basketball royalty Kansas was facing not being in a BCS conference). College football is one of the most popular sports in the country and growing in popularity whereas college basketball is declining (see below). I think the one way Ohio moves the dial in Athletics is in a new conference. The only hope (emphasis on hope) is that someone needs an FBS football school. There are no shortage of basketball schools (345 and counting), everyone has one.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NewsRoom/HarrisPolls/tabid/447/ctl/ReadCustom%20Default/mid/1508/ArticleId/248/Default.aspx


I don't doubt that football is more popular than basketball.  But I disagree that the MAC should just blindly prioritize the most popular sport, regardless of its realistic ability to have make an impact in that sport.  Most college football fans focus on the BCS conferences and a handful of mid-majors (soon to be one - Boise State).  They don't care about the MAC, and think that our level of competition is generally a joke.  You are going to be waiting until the cows come home for Ohio to move up into a better football conference.  We have no fan following, and play in an insignificant media market oversaturated by better FBS programs (Ohio State, Cincinnati, Pitt, WVU, Marshall). 

In contrast, while college basketball obviously occupies a shorter window of time in the consciousness of the average sports fan, the MAC has an ability to make a much bigger impact than just about anything it can do on the gridiron.  Last March's victory by Ohio was a more impressive showing on the national stage than anything a MAC football program had done since 2003, and I would offer almost certainly had a larger impact on the average sports fan than the last several years of MAC football combined. 

In any event, this is again all beside the point.  I didn't enter this conversation to argue that football should be dumped, or even necessarily that we should prioritize basketball over football.  The point is just that I believe it is abundantly clear that the MAC's stature in basketball has fallen as a result of its prioritization of remaining a cellar-dwelling FBS conference.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:05 PM
Wes wrote:expand_more
The whole point of this discussion and I think we can all mutually agree on this is what is going to be the best solution for the athletic department over the long term. Now on recruiting we are finally touching on the fine points. I am of the opinion that MAC schools have adequate recruiting budgets but are not attractive for recruits because lack of TV time and medicore facilities.


I don't understand your basis for stating all of this.  How do MAC recruiting budgets compare to those in the CAA?  The Horizon?  How many more nationally televised contests do CAA teams average than the MAC?  The Horizon (outside of Butler)?  How many more Horizon or CAA schools have replaced or refurbished their basketball facilities in the last 10 years?  How many in the MAC?
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:07 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
I enjoy MAC basketball as much as MAC football.  However, MAC football garners much more National Attention for the representative schools than MAC basketball, Horizon Basketball and CCA Basketball COMBINED.  


You dramatically overestimate the significance of playing a few lousy mid-week football games on ESPN.  We are a joke in the FBS Division I football landscape.  In basketball, mid-majors are respected.  I would guess that our win over Georgetown last year single handedly generated more national attention for the MAC than an entire year of crappy football being played on odd nights on ESPN. 


TV value to the overall university is overrated. Marketing value is something that is more important and a function of a schools total fanbase. I like how BG and Miami are at the top level in Hockey, Football and Basketball. I don't think Hockey is viable at Ohio University but what about Men's Lacrosse. That nice field is sitting there without a Lacrosse team. In fact I would argue that it would make sense for Ohio to move down to FCS, save 20 scholarships and 2 coaches in football, cut men's cross country and mens/womens golf, and add a men's lacrosse team. Ohio could then apply to the CAA and leave the directional MAC behind, billing the university as a midsized eastern school. Then get Miami to join with us, it may be more respectable dropping down.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:10 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
Because when you cut the sport you also cut revenues. So the % of budget you have to keep is higher due to the revenues lost. That's why I don't like this talk. I don't think a pot of gold shows up if you cut or reduce football.


Eh?  If I'm paying $10 to play football and I make $6 dollars from playing football, I'm out $4.  If I stop playing football, I keep the $10 and lose the $6, and I end up with $10.  It doesn't matter that you lose the revenue if it doesn't overcome the cost.  You might not think cutting football would help basketball, but it would.  It gives us more money to spend.  If the decision was made to keep the overall athletic budget the same and eliminate football, you'd have a lot more money to throw at the other sports.  I ask you this: Why do all of the successful mid-major basketball schools not play football at the FBS level?  Gonzaga and Xavier don't have it at all, and Xavier will absolutely tell you the money they don't waste on football allows them to spend more on basketball.  Half the Valley doesn't.  Butler and Dayton play non-scholarship football, which is significantly cheaper.

I'm not saying cut football, but at the same time, there seems to be a direct link between FBS football and a lack of sustained basketball success.

Thus, the reason you see schools trying to move up.  I am not aware of a waiting list to move down.


Because the NCAA doesn't make you wait, but there are schools leaving Division I.

What schools have requested to leave FBS?  

In terms of being closer in basketball than football...the pre-season MAC favorite just lost by 67 points on a neutral court.


1. 57.
2. Definition of small sample size.
3. What was the score of Ohio/Ohio State in football again?

Ohio State beat Big Ten teams worse than us this year.  I remember listening to the Bobcats play back to back games vs. Wooden's #1 UCLA and #2 USC.  I dont ever recall Ohio losing a basketball game by 57 on a neutral court.  

What I do know is that conference affiliations are driven by football (see this summer when basketball royalty Kansas was facing not being in a BCS conference).


Sometimes, but not always.  I point to the Big East's recent expansion.

Just like in basketball, most of those 340+ D-1 Hoops programs also have football teams.


Roughly two-thirds.  FBS is bigger than FCS by about 25 schools.

The point was there are hundreds of college football programs.: FBS, FCS, DII, DIII and NAIA.  New ones popping up yearly like Ohio Dominican.  If a school is looking for regular National Television exposure they better play in the FBS.  Most of the 340+ mid major basketball teams including the CCA, Horizon and Summit see little if any coverage compared to MAC Football which was the point.

I think the one way Ohio moves the dial in Athletics is in a new conference. The only hope (emphasis on hope) is that someone needs an FBS football school.


Unless we get our own T. Boone Pickens, Ohio will never, ever be nationally relevant enough to be attractive to a bigger conference because of football.

Does every BCS school have a T. Boone Pickens?  I think not.  Put Indiana's football schedule in Athens and we would draw similar numbers resulting in a new stadium.  



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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:13 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
The whole point of this discussion and I think we can all mutually agree on this is what is going to be the best solution for the athletic department over the long term. Now on recruiting we are finally touching on the fine points. I am of the opinion that MAC schools have adequate recruiting budgets but are not attractive for recruits because lack of TV time and medicore facilities.


I don't understand your basis for stating all of this.  How do MAC recruiting budgets compare to those in the CAA?  The Horizon?  How many more nationally televised contests do CAA teams average than the MAC?  The Horizon (outside of Butler)?  How many more Horizon or CAA schools have replaced or refurbished their basketball facilities in the last 10 years?  How many in the MAC?


I'm saying that MAC facilites are medicore compared to Memphis or Xavier type program where they land some 5 star guys and not far removed from what a lot of lower tier DI schools have to work with. The difference in what is happening in the CAA or Horizon and the MAC on the playing field is slight, statistically insignificant and the result of a couple programs in those leagues taking things to another level. MAC budgets are a school by school basis rather than a group decision.  
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:41 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Just like in basketball, most of those 340+ D-1 Hoops programs also have football teams.  They just do not play at the same high level as MAC football.   


Actually that isn't true.  Of the 340+ Division I schools, only around 245 field football teams (and that includes a fair number of schools that have non-scholarship football teams).  But the vast majority of NFL players come out of the FBS ranks.  

Again; The NFL is the Nations number one most popular sport.  The MAC is VERY well represented in the NFL.  Dropping FBS so we can move up to CCA and Horizon B-Ball...not so much.  Other than Butler most sports fans will never see any of the other teams.  That was the point.  

The ACC, SEC, Big Ten, PAC-10,  MWC and Big 12 all played week night games this year.  C-USA, WAC and MAC all played Mid week games.  


All mid-week games are not equal.  There is a significant perception gap between playing on Thursday (a now almost traditional night for college football) and playing on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesdays.

The MAC played games on Thursday and Friday this year.  As did all the above conferences.  Thursday was just like Tuesday several years ago.  Now CUSA and WAC have joined the ranks.  Why?  Because people are watching.  Personally, I prefer Saturday college football.  But I am fine with November weeknights because we are not going to draw much in cold November anyways.  


The reason the World Wide Leader of Sports continues to televise them is because people watch them and they produce ratings.


The World Wide Leader shows all sorts of things to fill time.  Just because we draw better ratings than sychronized swimming and women's bull fighting doesn't mean we are producing strong ratings.

The people who buy the ads see the value.  Thats why other conferences are now following our lead with weeknight games.  The OU- Pitt game remains one of ESPN's most watched week night games.  

In terms of being closer in basketball than football...the pre-season MAC favorite just lost by 67 points on a neutral court.  I remember years ago losing football to WV 63-3.  That was bad but happens in conference games yearly even at the BCS level.  Losing a basketball game on a neutral court by 67?  I don't recall a worse loss in my 40+ years of following nearly every game.  


Yes we got slaughtered by a top 5 Kansas team, but we were horribly overrated to start the season.  In contrast, the MAC Champion Miami Redhawks lost 45-3 to a 4-8 Cincinnati squad.  I'd offer that that is a much more embarassing loss.  

Lots of 40 point loses in football including BCS league play.  I am not aware of too many 57 point basketball beat downs at our level.  

One way or another there will be cuts.  Forty-six States are in trouble and several large ones are on the verge insolvency in 2011.  Historically bailouts only delay and have never worked  It does not take a math major to calculate what is coming.  In terms of athletics; When the smoke clears I think several MAC schools could come out much stronger than many of those BCS schools with massive fixed expenses and an almost certain decline in big dollar donors.  


I agree with you generally, but disagree when it comes to athletics.  I cannot envision any scenario is which a MAC program comes out stronger (let alone "must stronger) than any BCS school (let alone "many") given how little overall interest and revenue generation capability the MAC programs have.


Many BCS football programs in the arms race are WAY in debt compared to most non AQ programs.  I know some big money donors who are done. They are trying to figure out how to hold on to what they have while still supporting their favorite charities.  The small passionate donors will still play but I expect with all the new expenses coming their way there is going to a huge sports bubble.  Thats why I say Ohio could come out with some new opportunities.  For example: OSU has massive long term debt and huge long term contracts.  If half the big money dollars stop and $70 tickets lose their cache.  Look out.  Not saying the Cats could move to their level but we could come out of this with much less damage.   
Last Edited: 12/14/2010 8:50:04 PM by DublinCat
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:56 PM
DublinCat wrote:expand_more
The point was there are hundreds of college football programs.: FBS, FCS, DII, DIII and NAIA.  New ones popping up yearly like Ohio Dominican.  If a school is looking for regular National Television exposure they better play in the FBS.  Most of the 340+ mid major basketball teams including the CCA, Horizon and Summit see little if any coverage compared to MAC Football which was the point.


There are also schools dropping football, too.  I wasn't trying to make a point as much give greater detail to what you said.  And I disagree with your contention that those conferences aren't getting much attention.  MAC football is irrelevant nationally.  People watch it because "it's football" or because of the discussion about the teams that "matter" during our games.  They make terribly little impact on the psyche.  And it's the CAA, not the CCA.

Butler just played one of the most memorable basketball games ever.  Ohio has a chance, however modest, to be in a similar position.  Football currently offers zero equivalent opportunity.  The New Orleans Bowl is as good as it's going to get for Ohio football.

DublinCut wrote:expand_more
Does every BCS school have a T. Boone Pickens?


Yes.  It's called the BCS.  We can't get Indiana's schedule and we never will, so what's your point?  We would have to be in a BCS conference to get such a schedule, and there is an infinitesimal chance we would get there.  It is more likely you win the lottery, I get hit by lightning, and Monroe is elected president.

Also: So what if the MAC has a number of NFL players?  Every conference does.  We're not in the NFL, so I really don't know what you're getting at.  And the Kansas game was one freaking game.  It is the very definition of an outlier.
Last Edited: 12/14/2010 8:59:46 PM by JSF
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:56 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I ask you this: Why do all of the successful mid-major basketball schools not play football at the FBS level?  Gonzaga and Xavier don't have it at all, and Xavier will absolutely tell you the money they don't waste on football allows them to spend more on basketball.  Half the Valley doesn't.  Butler and Dayton play non-scholarship football, which is significantly cheaper.

I'm not saying cut football, but at the same time, there seems to be a direct link between FBS football and a lack of sustained basketball success.


I don't think correlation equals causation. But since you asked, I do find BYU, San Diego St., Memphis and UNLV all in the Top 25. They are the only non-BCS schools in the Top 25. They all are FBS in football. You give me a Xavier, I can give you a Temple. The reason that Dayton can invest in basketball is that it won more games in the 50's and 60's than any other school. Thus, building a fan base that still exists in city that still has enough economy to bring in good revenues. Half the Valley are in metropolitan areas that allow them to bring in good revenues. If there were such a MAC team, I would argue with you that you shouldn't siphon off dollars.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
[
In terms of being closer in basketball than football...the pre-season MAC favorite just lost by 67 points on a neutral court.


1. 57.
2. Definition of small sample size.
3. What was the score of Ohio/Ohio State in football again?


When was the last time a hoops squad beat a Big 10 team. I'm sure we could both keep spinning this all night.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
What I do know is that conference affiliations are driven by football (see this summer when basketball royalty Kansas was facing not being in a BCS conference).


Sometimes, but not always.  I point to the Big East's recent expansion.


Huh? They just added TCU for football. The previous expansion, UC, Louisville and South Florida were added so they could have 8 football schools. DePaul and Marquette were indeed added for hoops.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I think the one way Ohio moves the dial in Athletics is in a new conference. The only hope (emphasis on hope) is that someone needs an FBS football school.


Unless we get our own T. Boone Pickens, Ohio will never, ever be nationally relevant enough to be attractive to a bigger conference because of football.


Not sure how this isn't true for any of Ohio's sports. I agree it's a longshot but the only hope is that someone needs a football school. I'm thinking some sort of Eastern faction of C-USA (ECU, Marshall, Memphis) whom we could perhaps partner with and bring in Temple hoops as well. Longshot? yes. But if anything happens, it will because someone needs a football school.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 8:57 PM
DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Again; The NFL is the Nations number one most popular sport.  The MAC is VERY well represented in the NFL.   


Who cares?  Who outside of a few MAC football junkies knows how many MAC players are in the NFL?  And, for that matter, how many NFL players has the Colonial produced?  Because, after all, if that is how we are going to measure success we need to have some relevant basis for comparison.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Lots of 40 point loses in football including BCS league play.  I am not aware of too many 57 point basketball beat downs at our level.  


I'm not one to defend the Kansas loss, but as others pointed out around that time there are actually a few 50+ point losses in basketball every week (admittedly not by the company we'd prefer to keep).  You can say that there are lots of 40 point losses in BCS conference play, but the fact remains that our ACTUAL (not pre-season) MAC football champion lost by 42 points to a horrible Cincinnati squad that went 4-8 in one of the weakest conferences in the country.  If we are going to focus on single game performances, that performance speaks volumes more about how far the MAC is from relevance in football than our loss to Kansas says about MAC hoops.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Many BCS football programs in the arms race are WAY in debt compared to most non AQ programs.  I know some big money donors who are done. They are trying to figure out how to hold on to what they have while still supporting their favorite charities.  The small passionate donors will still play but I expect with all the new expenses coming their way there is going to a huge sports bubble.  Thats why I say Ohio could come out with some new opportunities.  For example: OSU has long term debt and huge long term contracts.  If half the big money dollars stop and $70 tickets are forced to cut in half.  Look out.  


With all due respect, you are living in fantasy land.  Our athletics program is perpetually in debt.  We never make a profit.  Due to their TV contracts, schools in the Big 10 and SEC each bring in over $20 million per year before they ever sell a ticket or receive a single athletics donation.  Even if half of the private donations dry up, OSU would still be comfortably operating on a $50-60 million dollar athletics budget.  There is simply no comparison. 
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Posted: 12/14/2010 9:04 PM
DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Many BCS football programs in the arms race are WAY in debt compared to most non AQ programs.  I know some big money donors who are done. They are trying to figure out how to hold on to what they have while still supporting their favorite charities.  The small passionate donors will still play but I expect with all the new expenses coming their way there is going to a huge sports bubble.  Thats why I say Ohio could come out with some new opportunities.  For example: OSU has massive long term debt and huge long term contracts.  If half the big money dollars stop and $70 tickets lose their cache.  Look out.  Not saying the Cats could move to their level but we could come out of this with much less damage.   


The first place they are going to cut is in Olympic sports. The University of California has put a lot of sports on the chopping block. Schools will decide whether to move down in football or up. UMass has a contingent offer for MAC football while Rhode Island is moving down to the Northeast Conference. Ohio has with Peden what is required in todays entry level FBS stadium with 25,000 seats, press tower ect. The entire FCS division could collapse with Colonial, Big Sky and Southern moving up and the remaining schools moving to non scholarship football. All those top tier FCS programs Ohio fans think they could fit in well with may becoming to our level so why head down.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 9:09 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I ask you this: Why do all of the successful mid-major basketball schools not play football at the FBS level?  Gonzaga and Xavier don't have it at all, and Xavier will absolutely tell you the money they don't waste on football allows them to spend more on basketball.  Half the Valley doesn't.  Butler and Dayton play non-scholarship football, which is significantly cheaper.

I'm not saying cut football, but at the same time, there seems to be a direct link between FBS football and a lack of sustained basketball success.


I don't think correlation equals causation. But since you asked, I do find BYU, San Diego St., Memphis and UNLV all in the Top 25. They are the only non-BCS schools in the Top 25. They all are FBS in football.


But they're not mid-majors.  Memphis had the 18th-largest basketball budget last year, for instance. 

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
You give me a Xavier, I can give you a Temple.


And your Temple doesn't come close to being Xavier anymore.  Funny how since they started pouring money to try and resurrect football they haven't been nearly what they were in basketball.

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
The reason that Dayton can invest in basketball is that it won more games in the 50's and 60's than any other school.


Really?  That's the reason?  Because they won games 50-60 years ago?

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Half the Valley are in metropolitan areas that allow them to bring in good revenues.


That they don't waste on football.

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
In terms of being closer in basketball than football...the pre-season MAC favorite just lost by 67 points on a neutral court.


1. 57.
2. Definition of small sample size.
3. What was the score of Ohio/Ohio State in football again?


When was the last time a hoops squad beat a Big 10 team. I'm sure we could both keep spinning this all night.


Ohio or MAC?  Because we rarely even play the Big 10/11/12.  Are you sincerely trying to argue that we're close to being anything significant in football or that football has potential to be more than it is?


Ted Thompson[QUOTE=Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
What I do know is that conference affiliations are driven by football (see this summer when basketball royalty Kansas was facing not being in a BCS conference).


Sometimes, but not always.  I point to the Big East's recent expansion.

]Huh? They just added TCU for football. The previous expansion, UC, Louisville and South Florida were added so they could have 8 football schools. DePaul and Marquette were indeed added for hoops. [/quote]

And UC's basketball was not a major factor?

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I think the one way Ohio moves the dial in Athletics is in a new conference. The only hope (emphasis on hope) is that someone needs an FBS football school.


Unless we get our own T. Boone Pickens, Ohio will never, ever be nationally relevant enough to be attractive to a bigger conference because of football.


Not sure how this isn't true for any of Ohio's sports. I agree it's a longshot but the only hope is that someone needs a football school. I'm thinking some sort of Eastern faction of C-USA (ECU, Marshall, Memphis) whom we could perhaps partner with and bring in Temple hoops as well. Longshot? yes. But if anything happens, it will because someone needs a football school.


I disagree with your premise that it's the only hope.  I also oppose your apparent desire to move to a big money conference.  If it's just a upgrade, fine.  But I want no part of a BCS-like cartel.  And it isn't true for all Ohio sports because other schools have demonstrated an ability to have national success with a smaller budget than the biggest programs.  Some of OUR programs have demonstrated that.
Last Edited: 12/14/2010 9:14:37 PM by JSF
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Posted: 12/14/2010 9:45 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Again; The NFL is the Nations number one most popular sport.  The MAC is VERY well represented in the NFL.   


Who cares?  Who outside of a few MAC football junkies knows how many MAC players are in the NFL?  And, for that matter, how many NFL players has the Colonial produced?  Because, after all, if that is how we are going to measure success we need to have some relevant basis for comparison.

The point was why drop down in our most successful sport so we can equal Horizon and CAA basketball.  That was the discussion.  Neither of which produce any where near the professional talent of MAC football.  Who Cares?  Ever watch the SUPER BOWL?  The Pro Bowl?  Its difficult to watch a quarter without hearing a MAC school mentioned.  Butler being this years exception; the rest of the teams will not be seen until the demeaning and pitiful bracket buster.  

Lots of 40 point loses in football including BCS league play.  I am not aware of too many 57 point basketball beat downs at our level.  


I'm not one to defend the Kansas loss, but as others pointed out around that time there are actually a few 50+ point losses in basketball every week (admittedly not by the company we'd prefer to keep).  You can say that there are lots of 40 point losses in BCS conference play, but the fact remains that our ACTUAL (not pre-season) MAC football champion lost by 42 points to a horrible Cincinnati squad that went 4-8 in one of the weakest conferences in the country.  If we are going to focus on single game performances, that performance speaks volumes more about how far the MAC is from relevance in football than our loss to Kansas says about MAC hoops.

The Third Place no bowl MAC East team beat the BCS Big East Champion UCONN by double digits.  Forty point loses happen all the time in BCS football.  I have a lot of good BCS basketball teams lose by 20-30 points.  Just not 50+.  



Many BCS football programs in the arms race are WAY in debt compared to most non AQ programs.  I know some big money donors who are done. They are trying to figure out how to hold on to what they have while still supporting their favorite charities.  The small passionate donors will still play but I expect with all the new expenses coming their way there is going to a huge sports bubble.  Thats why I say Ohio could come out with some new opportunities.  For example: OSU has long term debt and huge long term contracts.  If half the big money dollars stop and $70 tickets are forced to cut in half.  Look out.  


With all due respect, you are living in fantasy land.  Our athletics program is perpetually in debt.  We never make a profit.  Due to their TV contracts, schools in the Big 10 and SEC each bring in over $20 million per year before they ever sell a ticket or receive a single athletics donation.  Even if half of the private donations dry up, OSU would still be comfortably operating on a $50-60 million dollar athletics budget.  There is simply no comparison. 


My point was: Ohio can turn it off the big spending and still keep playing.  Hope on a bus and play a day game vs. BG.  OSU owes MASSIVE debt on  multiple new sports complexes.  They have multiple million dollar long term contracts that cant just be turned off.  If their revenue drops...it will be ugly.  They are not alone.  A lot of BCS schools are in similar situation.  The sports bubble is coming.  They are relying on TV revenue.  Its not going to be enough for some schools with massive debt.  


Ted Thompson
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Posted: 12/14/2010 9:58 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I ask you this: Why do all of the successful mid-major basketball schools not play football at the FBS level?  Gonzaga and Xavier don't have it at all, and Xavier will absolutely tell you the money they don't waste on football allows them to spend more on basketball.  Half the Valley doesn't.  Butler and Dayton play non-scholarship football, which is significantly cheaper.

I'm not saying cut football, but at the same time, there seems to be a direct link between FBS football and a lack of sustained basketball success.


I don't think correlation equals causation. But since you asked, I do find BYU, San Diego St., Memphis and UNLV all in the Top 25. They are the only non-BCS schools in the Top 25. They all are FBS in football.


But they're not mid-majors.  Memphis had the 18th-largest basketball budget last year, for instance. 


OK, keep changing your argument. You used Xavier, Gonzaga, Butler, Dayton and the Valley in your opening paragraph where you're referencing mid-majors. Does that mean the Valley isn't mid-major? I dont' see any mid-majors in the Top 25 so I guess it's moot.

Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Bobcat Dragon][quote=Ted Thompson]
[quote=Ted Thompson]You give me a Xavier, I can give you a Temple.


And your Temple doesn't come close to being Xavier anymore.  Funny how since they started pouring money to try and resurrect football they haven't been nearly what they were in basketball.


What are you talking about? Temple has made the NCAA Tourney the last 3 years and started in the Top 25 this season. Prior to this run, they made the NCAA Tourney last in 2001. Their recent success mirrors their improvement in football. And I doubt they've "poured" any more money into football in the MAC than when they were independent or in the Big East.
JSF
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Posted: 12/14/2010 10:03 PM
I'm not changing my argument.  You cited Memphis and Mountain West schools.  Those aren't mid-majors.
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 12/14/2010 10:08 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I'm not changing my argument.  You cited Memphis and Mountain West schools.  Those aren't mid-majors.


Read my post. I didn't call them  mid-majors. I called them non-BCS teams playing FBS football.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 10:18 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
The point was there are hundreds of college football programs.: FBS, FCS, DII, DIII and NAIA.  New ones popping up yearly like Ohio Dominican.  If a school is looking for regular National Television exposure they better play in the FBS.  Most of the 340+ mid major basketball teams including the CCA, Horizon and Summit see little if any coverage compared to MAC Football which was the point.


There are also schools dropping football, too.  I wasn't trying to make a point as much give greater detail to what you said.  And I disagree with your contention that those conferences aren't getting much attention.  MAC football is irrelevant nationally.  People watch it because "it's football"   EXACTLY- its the Nations number one sport or because of the discussion about the teams that "matter" during our games.  They make terribly little impact on the psyche.  And it's the CAA, not the CCA.

Butler just played one of the most memorable basketball games ever.  Ohio has a chance, however modest, to be in a similar position.  Football currently offers zero equivalent opportunity.  Were you one of the millions that watched WAC team Boise beat Oklahoma in a BCS Bowl game?   The New Orleans Bowl is as good as it's going to get for Ohio football.  Your Opinion- based on nothing.

Does every BCS school have a T. Boone Pickens?


Yes.  It's called the BCS.  That was not the question- Pickens supports a BCS team.   We can't get Indiana's schedule and we never will, so what's your point?  We would have to be in a BCS conference to get such a schedule, and there is an infinitesimal chance we would get there.  It is more likely you win the lottery, I get hit by lightning, and Monroe is elected president.  All the current conference alignment is 100% due to college football.  Just like BCS teams rarely play in the Convo or any other rural CAA or Horizon league team.  Temple will be the best team since Kentucky.     

Also: So what if the MAC has a number of NFL players?  Every conference does.  We're not in the NFL, so I really don't know what you're getting at.  MAC football is producing star quality professional athletes.  CAA, Horizon and MAC basketball are not.  Why drop our most successful program so we can strive to be like the CAA or Horizon.  That was the point of discussion.  And the Kansas game was one freaking game.  It is the very definition of an outlier.  I still have optimistic confidence in the basketball team.  The discussion was we are closer in basketball than football.  My comment was the 57 point loss was the worse I recall since I started following and attending games in 1968, after we beat Indiana.  While I have confidence in the team; we have competed in regular season MAC football since FRANK than regular season MAC basketball.  I dont see how we are closer in basketball which was the point of discussion.
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Posted: 12/14/2010 10:45 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
How many more Horizon or CAA schools have replaced or refurbished their basketball facilities in the last 10 years?  How many in the MAC?


Just a bit of what I know locally. Butler has 2 practice gyms on the west end of the arena and is scheduled to undergo modernization. The whole place is dark and old but it is a magical place for all us born Hoosiers. I am not going to explain it but for guys like Matt Howard who was courted by Miami and Xavier and chose Butler amidst all the X fans clamoring about their arena and facilities I just laughed as I looked at their comments. "you want your family to pee in a horse trough?". If you get it no problem, if you don't I will never be able explain it.

Unlike Ohio that has no practice facility the kids here can get in most anytime and the 3 courts are almost always in use.

Ohio69
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Posted: 12/14/2010 11:02 PM
Hey, I know, we need to have a debate about whether football hurts basketball and whether MAC schools spend too much or too little on sports.  

Anyone know any place online that we can do that?

 
Ryan Carey
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Posted: 12/14/2010 11:46 PM
As it turns out, this discussion is now related to the thread title...well done! 
JSF
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Posted: 12/15/2010 1:53 AM
Your method of responding makes it really hard for me to format my message.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
EXACTLY- its the Nations number one sport


So?  It has less to do with OU than it does the sport itself.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Were you one of the millions that watched WAC team Boise beat Oklahoma in a BCS Bowl game?


I was one of the thousands who watched Ohio lose to Marshall in the Pizza Bowl.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
  The New Orleans Bowl is as good as it's going to get for Ohio football.  Your Opinion- based on nothing.


Not at all.  The 2003 Miami team, perhaps the best team the conference has ever fielded, played in the GMAC Bowl.  Undefeated Marshall teams either went to Mobile or Detroit.  Ohio has to compete against two in-state BCS schools as well as several others within just a few hours drive.  We cannot compete with them.  We will never rise to that level.  It's my opinion, sure, but it's one I will back with any amount of money you'd care to name.

DublinCut wrote:expand_more
Does every BCS school have a T. Boone Pickens?


Yes.  It's called the BCS.  That was not the question- Pickens supports a BCS team.


You're missing my point here.  BCS schools get a yearly sack of cash dropped in their laps just because they're in BCS conferences, and it's money we are unable to acquire in order to keep up.  So unless some crazy wealthy benefactor comes along, we'll never maintain budgetary pace with schools in the BCS.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
  All the current conference alignment is 100% due to college football.
 

That was proven false earlier in this thread.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
Just like BCS teams rarely play in the Convo or any other rural CAA or Horizon league team.  Temple will be the best team since Kentucky.    


Come on, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.  Rural?  The only Horizon school that's not in a city is Valparaiso.  Maybe three CAA schools could be considered rural.  It's mostly in the metro DC area, but also Baltimore, Boston, Philly, and Atlanta.

DublinCat wrote:expand_more
MAC football is producing star quality professional athletes.  CAA, Horizon and MAC basketball are not.  Why drop our most successful program so we can strive to be like the CAA or Horizon.  That was the point of discussion. 


DublinCat wrote:expand_more
  I dont see how we are closer in basketball which was the point of discussion.


Because Ohio football has zero chance to win a national title, while the basketball team was one of the final 32 teams in the running for the championship this year.  Football, because of its conference affiliation, has no potential for upward mobility and can win 40 consecutive games without whiffing the national championship and might not even make a BCS bowl.  Basketball on the other head, has demonstrated the ability to be nationally relevant in the MAC.  The potential for upward mobility is there and it's just not for football.  Honestly, the MAC title is only slightly more meaningful than an intramural championship.
Last Edited: 12/15/2010 1:56:30 AM by JSF
Ohio69
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Posted: 12/15/2010 8:25 AM
I am Bill Murray.  This argument is the clock.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbtAFq7dP8&feature=related
Last Edited: 12/15/2010 8:26:08 AM by Ohio69
JSF
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Posted: 12/15/2010 9:05 AM
Also, I don't think the idea is trying to compete with the CAA and Horizon.  What we're saying is that we've fallen behind these conferences and we should be better than those two.  We should be competing with the Valley and the Atlantic 14.
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Posted: 12/15/2010 10:15 AM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
Also, I don't think the idea is trying to compete with the CAA and Horizon.  What we're saying is that we've fallen behind these conferences and we should be better than those two.  We should be competing with the Valley and the Atlantic 14.


Obviously the rural comment was Ohio not Detroit, WSU, YSU, CSU etc.  Dropping football to compete with similar CAA and Horizon gets us no where.   The only way to consistently draw big in the Convo and Peden is to join a BCS league.  It may never happen.  It will never happen without football.  Until then, I am enjoying the MAC.  To compare the MAC football championship to intramural sports is absurd and makes me question my own judgement to waste time responding.  Its the only MAC sport that national networks consistently acknowledge and typically features some great future professional stars.  Now I am going to go scold myself for wasting time on another groundhog day discussion.  
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 12/15/2010 10:28 AM
Once again, the number of NFL players the MAC produces is completely irrelevant.  In any event, in order for it to have any meaning at all you need to provide us data showing how many NFL players a top FCS league like the Colonial produces.  Personally, I would suspect that our NFL showing would be pretty comparable to a top FCS league, in which case your entire NFL argument goes out the window.
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Posted: 12/15/2010 10:31 AM
Wes wrote:expand_more
I would like to see MAC basketball coaches win but until they do athletic departments can't justify larger salaries for them and assistants which then is reflected in higher budgets. So yes I think to an extent the cart has to come before the horse and MAC schools on the bottom have to show they can be at least top 150 RPI programs before their administrations are justified in dumping more money into their basketball budgets.


Only two MAC programs (Toledo and Ohio) have budgets ranking in the top 150 in college basketball.  If you wait for most of the league to develop top 150 RPI programs on their current budgets, you are going to be waiting forever.  You get what you pay for, and right now the MAC is paying for a 15th to 20th ranked college basketball conference. 
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