menu
Logo
Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Team USA
Page: 3 of 6
giacomo
General User
G
Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,763
person
mail
giacomo
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 5:21 PM
All the same, I wouldn't do it. Kyrie Irving punched a wall- that's how he got hurt. Politically it's a tough exit for the player. Dwyane Wade and Blake Griffin got out of it. Take LeBron James and the Heat. He plays the maximum number of games this year plus the olympic exhibitions and games. Do you think he will be fresh next year? The only lucky thing for them is that they didn't play 82 games this year, but the condensed schedule was just as grueling. The Thunder have three players on the roster. Next year they will be dragging tail when they should be playing for an NBA championship.
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
General User
Member Since: 12/1/2006
Location: Cincinnati
Post Count: 1,926
mail
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 6:04 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
All the same, I wouldn't do it. Kyrie Irving punched a wall- that's how he got hurt. Politically it's a tough exit for the player. Dwyane Wade and Blake Griffin got out of it. Take LeBron James and the Heat. He plays the maximum number of games this year plus the olympic exhibitions and games. Do you think he will be fresh next year? The only lucky thing for them is that they didn't play 82 games this year, but the condensed schedule was just as grueling. The Thunder have three players on the roster. Next year they will be dragging tail when they should be playing for an NBA championship.


Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol led their respective countries to the Gold Medal game in the 2008 Olympics. Then they came back and won an NBA title together in 2009. I don't think it will hinder someone like LeBron either. 
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 6:30 PM
I agree essentially to what bobcatbob says.  In my mind the Olympics are just not as interesting as they used to be when it was all amateurs.  These days I watch a few events on TV, when I get bored with the news or other shows.  I rarely make a special effort to turn on any specific event, unless the USA is playing for a championship or I have some connection with a specific athlete or team.  I did follow the Icelandic handball team -- which was the upset story of the last Olympics, almost winning the gold.  That I thought was exciting.  
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 12:32 AM
It certainly is exciting and brings lots of drama when U.S. goes 5-0 in its pre-Olympics tourney, winning by an average of well over 26 points.

Yawn.  Bring back the collegians.

Oh, you're right.  The Miracle on Ice wasn't exciting at all.
Robert Fox
General User
RF
Member Since: 11/17/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039
person
mail
Robert Fox
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 8:33 AM
As I recall, when the Olympics were "amateur only," the USA complained that some other countries (i.e. the USSR) were fielding pro athletes disguised as amateur. That was the explanation for why we were losing (sometimes badly) in some sports.
athena
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 710
mail
athena
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 9:56 AM
Bobcatbob wrote:expand_more
Setting aside USA basketball as the lightning rod here, what's the point of the Olympics any more except to sell Coke and promote NBC's fall line-up? 


Well, it also gives Matt Lauer another place to travel to.

I always go through the same pattern with the Olympics. I'm never interested in any of the preliminary stuff and think I won't watch much. Then the games actually start and I get interested and start watching. By the time they're halfway over, that's the only thing on my TV and I'm obsessively watching even weird stuff like curling. (And yes, I realize curling is Winter Olympics, not Summer, but that's the weirdest event I can think of at the moment.) So although I'm not much interested today, I'm sure by this time next week the Olympics will have taken over my TV. (Sorry, Real Housewives.)

And in the pro vs. amateur argument, I come down on the side of sending our best athletes. If that means sending professionals, send them.
Bobcatbob
General User
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,351
mail
Bobcatbob
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 9:57 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
I am also growing really tired of the emerging sentiment that if any one makes any money off it, the whole thing is a big sham.  Lots of people work hard to provide entertainment that people want to see, and advertisers want to get involved in...they deserve to make money accordingly.  This does not make them evil nor does it squash any significance of it.  How would you like it if others questioned the significance and validity of what you do every day because of that salary they pay you?  Come on...


We can agree to disagree becaus I think you misunderstand my POV, Andrew.  The IOC is an organization that purportedly exists for a "higher" purpose than athletics (or profit).  Athletics exist everywhere and, like you, I am a fan of almost all of it, although my including soccer in the comments is not a coincidence.  What I am asking is if the Olympics is simply one more of those events, like those you mentioned, what is so special (Question mark). 

For you, that "special" piece might be the national rooting interest and that's fine. But if the main point is the annihilation of the opponent at all costs, I think that diminishes the spirit of friendly competition (an Olympic ideal?). 

What I do like about the Olympics are stories like that of the lone Afghan woman competing against all hope of ever appearing in a final and against the wishes of most her country men and women because she believes she has the god given right to do it and it's right.  That is something you don't see in professional sports and it's what the Olympics used to be about.  Thank heavens they still hold to some of that.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 1:23 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I agree essentially to what bobcatbob says.  In my mind the Olympics are just not as interesting as they used to be when it was all amateurs.  These days I watch a few events on TV, when I get bored with the news or other shows.  I rarely make a special effort to turn on any specific event, unless the USA is playing for a championship or I have some connection with a specific athlete or team.  I did follow the Icelandic handball team -- which was the upset story of the last Olympics, almost winning the gold.  That I thought was exciting.  


So you didn't find Phelps' 2008 effort interesting because he's a professional?
bn9
General User
B9
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Post Count: 422
person
mail
bn9
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 1:51 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I agree essentially to what bobcatbob says.  In my mind the Olympics are just not as interesting as they used to be when it was all amateurs.  These days I watch a few events on TV, when I get bored with the news or other shows.  I rarely make a special effort to turn on any specific event, unless the USA is playing for a championship or I have some connection with a specific athlete or team.  I did follow the Icelandic handball team -- which was the upset story of the last Olympics, almost winning the gold.  That I thought was exciting.  


So you didn't find Phelps' 2008 effort interesting because he's a professional?


Are the members of the Iceland Handball team professional handball players or do the handball clubs in Germany not pay? 
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 6:51 PM
I guess I'm not really sure if Olympic handball is amateur or pro; there are still a few sports in the Olympics that are limited to amateurs.  A small country like Iceland could probably compete in professional handball, but in most other team sports they are at a much greater disadvantage than if competition is on a completely amateur level.  Though they have a very small professional basketball league, in which our very own John Rhodes once competed, they could never field a team the least bit competitive against the NBA All Stars.  On the amateur level they'd still have a difficult time, but once-in-a-blue-moon a country that size might be able to have an "Indiana Hoosier" moment with a dream team.  That, to me, would be real Olympic excitement.  
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/25/2012 9:32 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
A small country like Iceland could probably compete in professional handball, but in most other team sports they are at a much greater disadvantage than if competition is on a completely amateur level.


You have no basis for making this claim. Countries like ours are exponentially more able to support amateur athletics than small countries like Iceland.
Matt Noonan
General User
Member Since: 7/7/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 59
mail
Matt Noonan
mail
Posted: 7/26/2012 12:29 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
A small country like Iceland could probably compete in professional handball, but in most other team sports they are at a much greater disadvantage than if competition is on a completely amateur level.


You have no basis for making this claim. Countries like ours are exponentially more able to support amateur athletics than small countries like Iceland.


Exhibit A


athena
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 710
mail
athena
mail
Posted: 7/26/2012 8:55 AM
So... I hear the flag guy is in big trouble this morning.

OU didn't know
General User
ODK
Member Since: 3/20/2005
Post Count: 185
person
mail
OU didn't know
mail
Posted: 7/26/2012 12:50 PM
Didn't see this mentioned, but if the Olympics instituted an under-23 amateur only rule for basketball, the U.S. would likely dominate more than they have.  Outside of the U.S., almost none of the best young basketball players play collegiately.  They all play professionally from a young age.  In that regard, the U.S. would destroy everyone if it became an under-23 event for everyone involved.  However, if only the U.S. was going to the age limit, then our collegiate players would just get waxed by far more experienced foreigners.  
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/26/2012 3:44 PM
By the way...

Bobcatbob wrote:expand_more
Tennis?  Didn't we just see those international rankings and matches settled at Wimbledon?


No. Not even close. In fact, Wimbledon made the picture muddier than it's been since the days of Lleyton Hewitt's reign. Tennis is one of the original nine events of the modern Games and should absolutely be in. Every single professional player who is healthy and qualified is playing. Most of them are also playing doubles, which is unheard of. Considering the relatively few ranking points at stake, that says how much the Olympics means to the players. Elena Dementieva said winning the gold meant more to her than any Grand Slam championship would have.

Steve Tignor, one of my favorite writers, has a really good piece.
OUVan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Bethesda, MD
Post Count: 5,580
mail
OUVan
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 11:27 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
It certainly is exciting and brings lots of drama when U.S. goes 5-0 in its pre-Olympics tourney, winning by an average of well over 26 points.

Yawn.  Bring back the collegians.

Oh, you're right.  The Miracle on Ice wasn't exciting at all.


I'm guessing Argentina thought the 2004 Olympics was pretty exciting.  Winning as a huge underdog is much more exciting than winning as a favorite but there is really no reason to go back to college players. Heck, 90% of the players that were on the team pre-Dream Team wouldn't be eligible these days.  Essentially we would be stuck playing good (not great) college players or great high school players.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 5:32 PM

We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I see no fun or drama in us sending superstars who'll blow everyone out except, maybe, having to stretch in the title game.  I'd rather see collegians strive.  I think there'd be much more emotion and excitement in following them.  Winning is mildly amusing; overcoming is compelling.

JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 5:45 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
We'll just have to agree to disagree.  I see no fun or drama in us sending superstars who'll blow everyone out except, maybe, having to stretch in the title game.  I'd rather see collegians strive.  I think there'd be much more emotion and excitement in following them.  Winning is mildly amusing; overcoming is compelling.


You're not agreeing to disagree, you're refusing to acknowledge that our collegians didn't strive, they dominated as much, if not more, than professionals. And our current collegians would dominate. THERE IS NO STRIVING.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 8:05 PM
We're discussing now.  How is 25+ years ago relevant.  Would our collegians dominate now.

Thank you for not being able to appreciate the difference between fact and opinion.

Who died and made you omnipotent?
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 9:22 PM
Yes, they would. It's not even a question. I've already explained it in this thread and others have as well. You continue to ignore it. And if you're going to try and burn me, use the correct word. You're looking for "omniscient."

These guys get paid millions upon millions of dollars to play basketball. They're not require to do this and they don't need the stress. Instead, they sacrifice their off-season and play FOR FREE for their country. That selfless act should be celebrated. No, you ungrateful jerks complain about how they shouldn't be there in the first place, whine about how it's not dramatic enough for your tastes, and (in giacomo's latest bout of insanity) scold them for doing it. 
whocaresgobobcats
General User
W
Member Since: 8/29/2011
Post Count: 519
person
mail
whocaresgobobcats
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 11:02 PM
They play basketball for free? Oh the humanity.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/27/2012 11:55 PM
OU didn't know
General User
ODK
Member Since: 3/20/2005
Post Count: 185
person
mail
OU didn't know
mail
Posted: 7/28/2012 12:55 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Yes, they would. It's not even a question. I've already explained it in this thread and others have as well. You continue to ignore it. And if you're going to try and burn me, use the correct word. You're looking for "omniscient."

These guys get paid millions upon millions of dollars to play basketball. They're not require to do this and they don't need the stress. Instead, they sacrifice their off-season and play FOR FREE for their country. That selfless act should be celebrated. No, you ungrateful jerks complain about how they shouldn't be there in the first place, whine about how it's not dramatic enough for your tastes, and (in giacomo's latest bout of insanity) scold them for doing it. 


Yeah...I'm always open for a good debate with about any sports topic, but this is pretty much non-debatable.  Stern's proposed 23-and-under rule would actually make the competitive balance much worse in the Olympics. The biggest equalizer that all of these other countries have is years upon years of playing together in international basketball. Just look at the rosters of the other top teams in the Olympics. If the age limit was 23-and-under, here's how many players from the current Olympic rosters would qualify, with NBA players BOLDED:

Spain: 2 (Ibaka, Claver) Rubio would make 3
Argentina: 1 (Campazzo)
Brazil: 1 (Neto)
Australia: 2 (Mills, Dellavedova)
Lithuania: 1 (Valanciunas)
France: 2 (Batum, Seraphin)
Tunisia: 2 (Ben Romdhane, Gaddour)
Nigeria: 1 (Aminu)
China: 4 (Ding, Guo, Chen, Zhou)
Great Britain: 3 (Lawrence, Johnson, Clark)
Russia: 4 (Shved, Karasev, Khvostov, Antonov)
USA: 5 (Durant, Westbrook, Harden, Davis, Love)

Aside from the USA, the only country that would still have NBA players of any real significance are Spain and France.

Hell, a starting 5 of Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Love, and Davis could likely medal playing against all of these other international teams with their full compliment of players. Even with injuries, a USA
 23-and-under roster would be something like this:

PG: Westbrook, Irving (injured after Olympic camp), Wall
SG: Harden, Gordon
SF: Durant, George, Leonard
PF: Love, Cousins
C:   Davis, Monroe

That team would just completely slaughter any other 23-and-under team that any country could roll out. It would honestly be worse than the Dream Team in 1992. This is even without an injured Derrick Rose and Blake Griffin. There's still a large group of players that they could draw from including MKG, Beal, Favors, Klay Thompson, Lin, Blair, Hayward, DeRozan, Drummond, T Robinson, Barnes, Lilliard, Waiters, Evans, and some current college players. If you simply built a team from this years draft and one or two current college players, they'd wax any other 23-and-under team:

PG: Lilliard, Marshall
SG: Beal, Waiters, Ross
SF: MKG, Barnes
PF: Robinson, C Zeller, Henson
C:  Davis, Drummond

Seriously...wouldn't even be fair.

Last Edited: 7/28/2012 12:56:05 PM by OU didn't know
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/28/2012 10:49 PM
After reading over the posts in this thread I've come to one basic conclusion: I'm a "ungrateful jerk."  but I'm in good company with a few other more esteemed BobcatAttackers.  Since I'm already a certified jerk, I might as well admit that I thought the opening ceremonies were not very revetting.  Further, I find virtually all the sports where the results are determined by judges' opinions rather than who crosses the finish line first or who has more scored points (baskets, goals, etc.) not of great interest.  Obviously these are personal idiosyncrasies, but they are probably not acceptable to the intelligentsia of this board.  So far, I've enjoyed the swimming competition the most.  The competition between Chinese and North Korean swimmers was very dramatic.  

In terms of amateurs in basketball:  yes it would give the USA an advantage.  I don't mind that at all, because in IMJHO (J stands for "jerkish") it would be more exciting to see young college-age kids play for their respective countries than a bunch of jaded pros.  I don't really get chills up my spine over the sacrifices of NBA stars playing in the Olympics.  Sorry.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/29/2012 12:04 AM
For the record, OCF, I respect your opinion (and I had to look up "revetting," though I don't understand it in your context). I think you're really disrespecting our guys, though, by calling them jaded. This clearly means a lot to them.

And I'm with you on events scored by judges and not by more objective means.
Last Edited: 7/29/2012 12:05:30 AM by JSF
Showing Messages: 51 - 75 of 129
MAC News Links



extra small (< 576px)
small (>= 576px)
medium (>= 768px)
large (>= 992px)
x-large (>= 1200px)
xx-large (>= 1400px)