menu
Logo
Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Team USA
Page: 2 of 6
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/16/2012 3:22 PM
UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Maybe not as closely as you, Jeff.  But I'd still rather watch us strive as underdogs than, generally, strongly romp.


The 2008 USA Olympic basketball team did win every game by at least 11 points. The 2004 team went 5-3 overall and struggled to earn the bronze medal. It no longer is a guarantee that the USA will strongly romp.


The 2008 gold medal game was by no means a ramp, either. Spain could have won that.

And I'd rather see us win. I don't care if we're the favorites or underdogs.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/17/2012 1:47 AM
Donuts and Bob--What are you talking about?  Instead of random, what-are-you-thinking remarks, you might address my opinion.  I prefer the collegians.  Others don't.  No big deal.    People disagree.  Not sure why your response is 'get stuffed.'

It's easy to do that when you don't show the courage and grace to post by your actual names, I guess.
Donuts
General User
D
Member Since: 9/22/2010
Post Count: 734
person
mail
Donuts
mail
Posted: 7/17/2012 11:15 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Donuts and Bob--What are you talking about?  Instead of random, what-are-you-thinking remarks, you might address my opinion.  I prefer the collegians.  Others don't.  No big deal.    People disagree.  Not sure why your response is 'get stuffed.'

It's easy to do that when you don't show the courage and grace to post by your actual names, I guess.


When you talk in generalizations such as "Who cares?" and "We are America," that whole opinion angle you are now playing doesn't fit.

That's pretty hilarious though that you are now asking us what we are talking about as if we're the ones talking nonsense and in circles.
Last Edited: 7/17/2012 11:15:53 AM by Donuts
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/19/2012 11:16 PM
Well, I guess I'm in the minority along with Monroe and few others who prefer the amateur-only Olympics.  I think we only ended up with pros in the Olympics because the USSR and the old Soviet block countries used to cheat.  They had amateur competition in their countries that was really pro competition, but because of the differences in economic and governmental systems it was very hard for an outsider to make the charge of "pro" stick.  So, instead of figuring out a way insure true amateur status the Olympic brain trust just caved in and declared that in certain sports (an ever expanded number) that pros were eligible.  At one time, if you were a pro in any sport you could not compete in any other sport.  I was in favor of dropping that rule which allowed, for instance, a pro baseball player to compete on the basketball team.  Other than that, I'd like to go back to an amateur only Olympics.  It probably won't happen, but that would make the games much more interesting to me.  
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 5:16 PM
There is no reason for an amateur-only Olympics. It was a figment of an era that believed amateur sports to be "purer" than professional sports. History has shown that to be largely a sham. Why would you not send your best athletes to the world's top international competition? Plus, the original Olympics weren't really amateur; winners were lavished with rewards as such they wouldn't be considered amateurs. Plus, you're asking people to train to be world-class athletes but not get compensated as such or maybe afterwards cashing in.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 8:31 PM
No.

Because it's boring to see our mega-ton warhead pros smash lesser squads.  It's dramatic to see our college lads struggle...and awesome should they win.  Should our pros win, nothing..it's expected.

Drama rules.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:05 PM
You didn't find 2008's gold medal game dramatic because you didn't watch it. It was plenty dramatic. What about in 2004, when we barely medaled? Where was the mega-warheadness then?

PROTIP: America's amateurs dominated basketball, too. And if you took professionals out of consideration, USA would be more dominant because any player in Europe (or South America) who is any good goes pro as soon as possible.

And it seems like you don't care much about the athletes themselves, just that your need for "drama" is sated. Michael Phelps is a professional athlete; is there no drama in his races? Insisting on amateur-only would make many sports downright unwatchable.
Last Edited: 7/20/2012 9:11:18 PM by JSF
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:27 PM
The drama of the amateur era in Olympic basketball:

1936: The USA was so much better than the rest of the world, they got a bye into the fourth round. They won every game by double digits, including a 19-8 win over Canada in the gold medal round.

1948: The USA goes 5-0 in pool play, scoring 325 points and allowing 167. Their smallest margin of victory in the knockout rounds is 31. They beat France 65-21 in the gold medal round.

1952: The USA defeats the USSR twice, including an 11-point victory in the gold medal round, capping a perfect 5-0 Olympics.

1956: The USA goes 8-0, winning every game by 30 points or more.

1960: The USA goes 7-0, winning every game by 24 points or more.

1964: Yugoslavia is the first team to ever lose to the USA by single digits in Olympic play, but we roll over the Soviets in the gold medal round anyway.

1968: 9-0 this time, beating Yugoslavia by 15 in the gold medal round.

1972: I think we can all agree the drama in the gold medal round was not fun or something we would like to see again.

1976: Puerto Rico and Czechoslovakia push us in pool play but a 95-74 victory in the gold medal round secures yet another gold medal.

1980: Boycott. Drama!

1984: Canada and West Germany are the only teams to get within 20 in another easy gold medal win.

1988: The Soviets score an upset in the semifinals. The USA has to settle for bronze.

So, in the entire amateur era, the United States lost all of two games, one of which because of one of the greatest officiating blunders in the history of sports. I ask you, where is the compelling drama you're alluding to?
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:34 PM
Professional era:

1992: Dream Team.

1996: Dream Team II. Another romp.

2000: The USA is very nearly upset by Lithuania in the semifinals and has to hold off a game France in the gold medal round in the lowest gold medal-winning victory margin in the country's history.

2004: The USA barely qualifies for the medal round, getting rocked by Puerto Rico and beaten by Lithuania in pool play. We upset Spain (and it was an upset) in the quarterfinals, only to get school by Argentina in the semis. Another tough fight with Lithuania gets us bronze.

2008: The USA rolls into the gold medal round, getting revenge on Argentina in the process. We beat Spain for the gold in a competitive game that was as close as 4 points with about 2 to play.
Monroe Slavin
General User
MS
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121
person
mail
Monroe Slavin
mail
Posted: 7/20/2012 10:26 PM
I'm not going to get into a prolonged argument with you, Jeff.  I won't convince you and you won't convince me.  I will say that games  before about 20 years ago don't mean anything.  Basketball was not then nearly the universal sport that it is now.
Jeff McKinney
Moderator
JM
Member Since: 11/12/2004
Post Count: 6,163
person
mail
Jeff McKinney
mail
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:12 PM
Monroe, I think our non professional basketball players would not even be competitive for any medals in the Olympics...I respect your opinion but respectfully disagree.  I'm not even sure we'd qualify for the Olympics with using only college players.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/21/2012 9:51 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Monroe, I think our non professional basketball players would not even be competitive for any medals in the Olympics...I respect your opinion but respectfully disagree.  I'm not even sure we'd qualify for the Olympics with using only college players.
 

You seem to be assuming that other countries could just continue to do business as usual. If everyone had to have amateurs that would apply to all nations that wished to compete in the Olympics.  I submit that in almost any given year our college all stars could beat the college all stars (or amateur all stars) in a very high percentage of games against nearly every other country.  This would be much more exciting than the paid gladiators from one country playing the paid gladiators from another country.  
Last Edited: 7/21/2012 9:53:05 PM by OhioCatFan
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/22/2012 7:11 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I submit that in almost any given year our college all stars could beat the college all stars (or amateur all stars) in a very high percentage of games against nearly every other country.  This would be much more exciting than the paid gladiators from one country playing the paid gladiators from another country.  


Why? How? I get that this is a generational divide, but the only argument seems to be "because."
Donuts
General User
D
Member Since: 9/22/2010
Post Count: 734
person
mail
Donuts
mail
Posted: 7/22/2012 5:41 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
The Dream Team would win. You had Jordan in his prime and even if you had Howard in there, they would just overwhelm the 2012 team inside. The Dream Team was just impossibly deep. If you start Ewing, you have Robinson backing him up. If you start Barkley, you have Malone backing him up. Mullin was at his apex in 1992. You can make a case that Rose and Paul could do a lot of damage against Magic and Stockton, but if we're pretending injured guys are on this team then I get to replace Stockton with Isiah Thomas (for those of you too young to know, Thomas was screwed out of his rightful spot). And could you imagine if they didn't make the huge mistake of taking Laettner over Shaq?


The difference with my thinking is, Rose, Howard, Bosh and Wade would all definitely play if healthy. Thomas wasn't hurt, and Shaq wasn't hurt, so the Dream Team basically got every single player they wanted. On a side note, what if Lebron James or Kobe Bryant would have just said "hey, we don't like Deron Williams, leave him off the team." They would probably talk about that on First Take for 2 weeks.

While Karl Malone and Charles Barkley are beasts down low, I'm confident that Lebron could handle both. He's just as big or bigger than both.

Mullin was at the tale end of his prime, and although Harden had the luxury of being a 3rd option this entire year, his regular season was better than Mullin going into the Olympics.

The international game makes post play tougher, so I don't think the lack of size and muscle would hurt them as much as people would think. Besides, other than Jordan and Pippen, the Dream Team would be forced to have poor matchups on the perimeter as well. The Dream Team did a ton for basketball, but they would not be unbeatable and they certainly wouldn't just blow this team out every time out. For some reason, the sentiment among the common basketball fan is that the level of play has never been the same since the 1990s. I personally feel it is at an all-time high at every position besides center.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 7/22/2012 10:04 PM
Donuts,

All fair points. I think, though, that 2012 is thinner at the 2 than people realize.

One thing that really is in the Dream Team's favor, I think, was they meshed a lot better than I think the 2012 will. I think they're going to struggle to find their groove and figure out who the alpha dog is.
OhioCatFan
General User
Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 15,699
mail
OhioCatFan
mail
Posted: 7/22/2012 10:05 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I submit that in almost any given year our college all stars could beat the college all stars (or amateur all stars) in a very high percentage of games against nearly every other country.  This would be much more exciting than the paid gladiators from one country playing the paid gladiators from another country.  


Why? How? I get that this is a generational divide, but the only argument seems to be "because."


It's the same reason I watch much more college football than pro football, more college basketball than pro basketball.  I find the amateur game more exciting.  I suppose this is true in part because they are not as polished and hustle and coaching skills seem to play a greater part in victory or defeat rather than just winning with overwhelming talent.  Though when you get to the OSU (football), LSU (football) or UK (basketball) level you sometimes get to a distinction without a difference.  It's kind of the exception that proves the rule to me.  As you imply, we'll probably never agree on this issue, but I would sill like to see amateur-only Olympics.
LoganElm_grad09
General User
LE09
Member Since: 9/9/2010
Location: South Bloomingville, OH
Post Count: 934
person
mail
LoganElm_grad09
mail
Posted: 7/23/2012 12:12 AM
OUBob wrote:expand_more
Yeah, that Miracle on Ice when our amateurs beat the best pros in the world--that wasn't exciting.  But such as whipping Angola by 43 and Spain by 17 with our hoop pros, that's emotional, heart-grabbing tension.

We're America.  We're not about the little guy rising up with heart to triumph.  We're about bringing guns multitudes bigger than anyone else and blowing them away.


Apparently, you haven't been following international basketball at all since 1992.  


Or American history prior to 1944.


Imperialism?
LoganElm_grad09
General User
LE09
Member Since: 9/9/2010
Location: South Bloomingville, OH
Post Count: 934
person
mail
LoganElm_grad09
mail
Posted: 7/23/2012 12:22 AM
As to the topic itself (and I'm pretty sure JSF covered this already):  If the Olympics are to see who the best countries are at certain sports, why the heck would they not send the best players in those games?  Dramatic/compelling or not, the name of the game is to see who the big dog is.  It wouldn't make sense to send anything but your best to such a competition.  If the games were to see who the best amateur teams were, then we'd have a different case.
The Optimist
General User
Member Since: 3/16/2007
Location: CLE
Post Count: 5,611
mail
The Optimist
mail
Posted: 7/23/2012 8:55 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
PROTIP: America's amateurs dominated basketball, too. And if you took professionals out of consideration, USA would be more dominant because any player in Europe (or South America) who is any good goes pro as soon as possible.

Agree, which is one of the reasons I wouldn't mind a no-pro policy.  Not only would our amateur's dominate on the talent level, they wouldn't lack the toughness our soft pros do.
Ohio Pilot
General User
OP
Member Since: 9/5/2010
Post Count: 499
person
mail
Ohio Pilot
mail
Posted: 7/23/2012 4:47 PM
I personally believe if we sent out college players then they would play much better defense and work well as a team. To say that we wouldnt qualify for the olympics using college players is crazy. 
Donuts
General User
D
Member Since: 9/22/2010
Post Count: 734
person
mail
Donuts
mail
Posted: 7/23/2012 5:36 PM
Ohio Pilot wrote:expand_more
I personally believe if we sent out college players then they would play much better defense and work well as a team. To say that we wouldnt qualify for the olympics using college players is crazy. 


How though? Unless you just sent, say, Kentucky, they would have just as much time to practice together as a team. The better defense thing in bogus too. As great as Anthony Davis is right now, he isn't Tyson Chandler defensively yet. Chandler is a grown man. Same applies to Lebron, Kobe, Iguodala, Paul, etc. There is no one in college who really comes close to defending the way they do. It's why they get paid to play the game.

I personally just can't understand this argument. I don't get why people would not want to see the best players in the world play. Everyone knows that the excuse of "well, if we sent our best we would have won" would be used so much in any sport the USA didn't win. You can't have it both ways. Let's just send our best and if we dominate the rest of the world can catch up. No one takes it easy on us in the sports we aren't good at.

Bobcatbob
General User
Member Since: 12/21/2004
Location: Coolville, OH
Post Count: 1,351
mail
Bobcatbob
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 9:21 AM
Setting aside USA basketball as the lightning rod here, what's the point of the Olympics any more except to sell Coke and promote NBC's fall line-up?  Yeah, I'll watch selective events because it's in prime time and it's great drama but,

The track events are dominated by pros, so it;s just another world championship, only with flags instead of shoe companies.  Tennis?  Didn't we just see those international rankings and matches settled at Wimbledon?  Soccer?  Don't even get me started there.  Aren't four or five "challenge/ World Cup/Pan American/European be all, end all" championships per year enough?

I personally am excited about seeing golf added to the Summer Games, though, because 30 - 40 tournaments per year with the same basic field just isn't enough.

So let's not make it more than it is. It's simulcast commercial television for the whole world.  Will someone please DVR the Opening Ceremony for me?  That's original and that's entertainment.
giacomo
General User
G
Member Since: 11/20/2007
Post Count: 2,763
person
mail
giacomo
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 1:26 PM
What I don't see being mentioned is the liability these guys and their teams are carrying by having them play in the Olympics. I know the teams have disability policies on their contracts, but a lot of these guys are guarateed for over 100M. If I were a team owner, I would say you can't play and if I were a player I would conveniently have a pulled hamstring.
Andrew Ruck
General User
Member Since: 12/22/2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Post Count: 5,646
mail
Andrew Ruck
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 1:35 PM
Bobcatbob wrote:expand_more
Setting aside USA basketball as the lightning rod here, what's the point of the Olympics any more except to sell Coke and promote NBC's fall line-up?  Yeah, I'll watch selective events because it's in prime time and it's great drama but,

The track events are dominated by pros, so it;s just another world championship, only with flags instead of shoe companies.  Tennis?  Didn't we just see those international rankings and matches settled at Wimbledon?  Soccer?  Don't even get me started there.  Aren't four or five "challenge/ World Cup/Pan American/European be all, end all" championships per year enough?

I personally am excited about seeing golf added to the Summer Games, though, because 30 - 40 tournaments per year with the same basic field just isn't enough.

So let's not make it more than it is. It's simulcast commercial television for the whole world.  Will someone please DVR the Opening Ceremony for me?  That's original and that's entertainment.


I could not disagree more with this post.  It is the Olympics for God's sake, in which you represent your country.  How can you not see that is different and special?  By your logic, let's just get rid of the US Open, British Open, and PGA championship...just the Masters will do.  In fact let's apply this to our Bobcats...all those MAC West teams are so similar, let's just play Northern Illinois and tell the rest to stay home.  Miami again?  Nahh...I feel like we just saw that show...boring!

The only thing you may have a point on is soccer, but still not really...because it is still a prestigous international tournament...and you are part of a diverse group of elite athletes representing your country.

I am also growing really tired of the emerging sentiment that if any one makes any money off it, the whole thing is a big sham.  Lots of people work hard to provide entertainment that people want to see, and advertisers want to get involved in...they deserve to make money accordingly.  This does not make them evil nor does it squash any significance of it.  How would you like it if others questioned the significance and validity of what you do every day because of that salary they pay you?  Come on...
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
General User
Member Since: 12/1/2006
Location: Cincinnati
Post Count: 1,926
mail
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
mail
Posted: 7/24/2012 2:49 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
What I don't see being mentioned is the liability these guys and their teams are carrying by having them play in the Olympics. I know the teams have disability policies on their contracts, but a lot of these guys are guarateed for over 100M. If I were a team owner, I would say you can't play and if I were a player I would conveniently have a pulled hamstring.


Its not like the rest of the league is just sitting home playing video games. All NBA players play some sort of ball during the Summer and everyone has a chance to get hurt. 

Kyrie Irving fractured his hand in a summer league practice, stuff happens everywhere. 
Showing Messages: 26 - 50 of 129
MAC News Links



extra small (< 576px)
small (>= 576px)
medium (>= 768px)
large (>= 992px)
x-large (>= 1200px)
xx-large (>= 1400px)