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Topic: Is Wichita State a better team than Ohio State?
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Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/7/2013 6:20 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
JSF--You sure have all the answers.  Must be great to be an undoubted, thorough-going expert on most everything.  (You'll call me out.  But if you read my posts, they generally asks more questons and show more thinking/doubt than anyone else on this board.)


Just want to highlight this.
MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 4/7/2013 10:25 PM
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Is WS better than Louisville? 

The game results say no.  But as a TV watcher, I'd question two key ref calls late and one no call.  One was the double foul with the best free throw shooter in the tourney getting his face bent off but having a hand on the attackers back.  That was a swing of at least two for sure points.

Then Louisville makes a slick steal, the guy misses the shot misses the stick back and misses the stick back and going for the next rebound wipes out the WS rebounder who gets injured on the bang andthen  tied up for a jump ball--the whole mess should have been a foul. 

Then some bullshit quick whistle jump ball called when the defender from Louisville has the guys arm and barely has the ball. 

Man was I rooting for WS.  Knowing nothing about their coach--I love the way he seems emotionless--wonder if he has ever been rattled?
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Posted: 4/8/2013 9:59 AM
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MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
Is WS better than Louisville?

A few questionable calls, to be sure.  I'm still slightly hungup on the blown call in the Miami/Illinois game.  Officiating is always a headache when you get to this point of the season.

But, to answer your question, no.  They're not.  Because Monroe says Louisville brought it when it mattered.  Therefore, they are better than WS.  These 5 games matter.  Those other 30 odd games, pffft.  May as well never happened.

That team that wears those highlighter yellow unis, even though their battle cry is "Let's Go Blue", that finished tied for 4th in the 18-game meat-grinder that was the Big Ten slate (some of call that "sample size") - they are clearly better than IU, OSU, MSU - because they brought it in March . . .
Last Edited: 4/8/2013 10:00:06 AM by Ozcat
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/8/2013 3:38 PM
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Ozcat wrote:expand_more
That team that wears those highlighter yellow unis, even though their battle cry is "Let's Go Blue", that finished tied for 4th in the 18-game meat-grinder that was the Big Ten slate (some of call that "sample size") - they are clearly better than IU, OSU, MSU - because they brought it in March . . .


Correctomento.  Glad you've finally seen the light! 

Edit: Sampling is not really an issue in this matter.  We are not trying to find out certain characteristics of a population based on a sample of that population.  We are simply looking at which team rose to the occasion when all the chips were on the line.  Let me put it this way, Ozcat, would you rather have had the season end the way it did, or for your beloved Bucknuts to have lost in the first round of the B1G tournament after a mediocre regular season but be playing in tonight's game against Louisville?  Which means more?
Last Edited: 4/8/2013 5:03:30 PM by OhioCatFan
Ozcat
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Posted: 4/8/2013 4:08 PM
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Nobody is arguing which one "means more".

Michigan could win tonight.  If they do, neat.  That means they completed a great 6 game stretch. 

But I watched an entire season of ball.  The same team was 0-4 against Wisconsin and Indiana.  I also know they're where they are because Kansas peed down their leg and completely gave that game away.

So you and your wingman can keep trying to win your argument that Michigan is just better, period, because of 6 games.  You're wrong.  They could win the whole damn thing, and I still wouldn't crown them the "best" team.  They would simply be the winner of the tournament format.

JSF is dead on.  It's not about determining the best team.  It's about $$$ like everything else.
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Posted: 4/8/2013 11:42 PM
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Saying that the team who wins a tournament is the best in the country in comparison to their body of work all season is like saying The Wild and Wonderful Whites of West Virginia is a microcosm that explains the entire Appalachian Region.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/8/2013 11:59 PM
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OK guys, you win, mythical polls are what determines the best team in the country.  Let the poll voters determine by their individual and idiosyncratic criteria based on their analysis of a team's "body of work" who is the best team in the land.  I think the average fan in the stands would find that a fair way to do it. 
JSF
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Posted: 4/9/2013 2:22 PM
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Keep beating that strawman.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/9/2013 4:44 PM
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Says the king of strawmen positing. 
JSF
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Posted: 4/9/2013 5:05 PM
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That the best you can do?
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/9/2013 5:43 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
That the best you can do?


All that it's worth at the moment.
JSF
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Posted: 4/9/2013 6:19 PM
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So, in a way... yes.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 4/9/2013 6:22 PM
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Why even have polls after the tournament?  I think the tournament eclipses the need for polls.  Polls are just a subjective way of rating teams until the tournaments start.  
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/9/2013 10:23 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Why even have polls after the tournament?  I think the tournament eclipses the need for polls.  Polls are just a subjective way of rating teams until the tournaments start.  


Great point.  I couldn't have said it better, Jeff. 
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/10/2013 9:54 AM
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It is a terrific point that the opinion of the wizards here is much more determinative than actual results on the floor at the end of a season in a tournament that everyone acknowledges is for all the marbles.

In other news, actual results achieved will no longer be considered when awarding salesperson of the year awards.

In other news, actual weather will be disregarded.  Opinions of what the weather is will determine clothing worn before venturing outside.  ('Put a coat on.  It's 17 degrees out'....'Quit bothering me.  The sun is bright in the sky.  My opinion is that it's 74.')

In other news, opinion, not academic achievement, will be used in naming valedictorians.  ('His final grades don't matter since his mid-terms were not the best.')

WichState was a #9 seed.  So they can't end the year ranked higher than 33-36.  No way they should be in the top four.  I don't want to hear about no NCAA.



Opinions are the way to go.




And mine is that you are wrong.
Last Edited: 4/10/2013 9:58:18 AM by Monroe Slavin
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/10/2013 10:25 AM
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Sorry, I had to break away for a minute there.

President Romney--he won all the tough primaries, led late in the polls and Obama had no competition and didn't play anyone--wanted my opinion.

The good news is that his opinion is that my taxes will be a lot lower than I thought.  He said...his opinion... that I needn't follow actual tax rules.  I can pay based on my opinion of a fair rate for me.
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Posted: 4/10/2013 12:45 PM
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Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
It is a terrific point that the opinion of the wizards here is much more determinative than actual results on the floor at the end of a season in a tournament that everyone acknowledges is for all the marbles.

In other news, actual results achieved will no longer be considered when awarding salesperson of the year awards.

In other news, actual weather will be disregarded.  Opinions of what the weather is will determine clothing worn before venturing outside.  ('Put a coat on.  It's 17 degrees out'....'Quit bothering me.  The sun is bright in the sky.  My opinion is that it's 74.')

In other news, opinion, not academic achievement, will be used in naming valedictorians.  ('His final grades don't matter since his mid-terms were not the best.')

WichState was a #9 seed.  So they can't end the year ranked higher than 33-36.  No way they should be in the top four.  I don't want to hear about no NCAA.



Opinions are the way to go.


And mine is that you are wrong.


I have tried to stay out of this exercise in mental uselessness, but I am intrigued by this debate.

So, is it your assertion that in 1985 Villanova was a better team than Georgetown?  How about better than St. John's? 
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Posted: 4/10/2013 1:51 PM
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Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
It is a terrific point that the opinion of the wizards here is much more determinative than actual results on the floor at the end of a season in a tournament that everyone acknowledges is for all the marbles. - I've yet to hear anyone say Louisville does not deserve to be #1)

In other news, actual results achieved will no longer be considered when awarding salesperson of the year awards.  As pointed out in another thread - if the sales guys sell different products in different areas, with different challenges then yes - you can (and many companies do) look beyond sales numbers for salesman of the year..  I have a client that incorporates year over year sales increase in their process. Last year's winner was, gasp, not the person with the most sales by dollar amount.

WichState was a #9 seed.  So they can't end the year ranked higher than 33-36.  No way they should be in the top four.  I don't want to hear about no NCAA.  Not hearing anyone say they should fall between 33-36. But as you agreed in another thread, the fact that four separate tournaments culminated in a Final Four in Atlanta means that Wichita State is not automatically the #3 or #4 team at the end of the year (just as Michigan can not lay automatic claim to #2).  Duke was dismissed by Louisville as well - no one can say Wichita State is better than Duke or should be ranked higher than Duke because they made the Final Four and Duke did not - but then you've already agreed with all this, so let's stop bringing it up. 


Bottom line - Louisville is #1 and no other position was proven or claimed through the results of the tournament.  Head to heads certainly need to be considered, especially if the winning team advanced beyond that one encounter.  Teams that played in separate regions (tournaments) can not be compared to each other based on how far they advanced in their particular region - since they were unable to show actual results against each other.
Last Edited: 4/10/2013 1:53:05 PM by cc-cat
JSF
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Posted: 4/10/2013 2:21 PM
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Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
In other news, actual weather will be disregarded.  Opinions of what the weather is will determine clothing worn before venturing outside.  ('Put a coat on.  It's 17 degrees out'....'Quit bothering me.  The sun is bright in the sky.  My opinion is that it's 74.')


People who know me should chuckle at this one.
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Posted: 4/10/2013 3:00 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
In other news, actual weather will be disregarded.  Opinions of what the weather is will determine clothing worn before venturing outside.  ('Put a coat on.  It's 17 degrees out'....'Quit bothering me.  The sun is bright in the sky.  My opinion is that it's 74.')


People who know me should chuckle at this one.


I'm happy to see a note of levity in this thread!
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/10/2013 5:27 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
It is a terrific point that the opinion of the wizards here is much more determinative than actual results on the floor at the end of a season in a tournament that everyone acknowledges is for all the marbles. - I've yet to hear anyone say Louisville does not deserve to be #1)   I don't see how you get the winner as #1 yet for all others the tournament isn't really a factor.   Inconsistent...therefore, to me, not valid.


In other news, actual results achieved will no longer be considered when awarding salesperson of the year awards.  As pointed out in another thread - if the sales guys sell different products in different areas, with different challenges then yes - you can (and many companies do) look beyond sales numbers for salesman of the year..  I have a client that incorporates year over year sales increase in their process. Last year's winner was, gasp, not the person with the most sales by dollar amount.      . Here the criteria is defined: winning in the end of year, big enchilada tourney.) My opinion is that is the deal. Your opinion is otherwise. So be it.


Bringing--again--the point about different products/different states for sales guys again does not beat my argument that the analogy fails...here we have the same criteria for all: competing in NCAA...there are no differences.   (Teams have different opponents/draws just as salsepeople have different territories/customers.  That's the way it is and it's not relevant here.  What--you want everyone to have the exact same, for every team to play every other?)


WichState was a #9 seed.  So they can't end the year ranked higher than 33-36.  No way they should be in the top four.  I don't want to hear about no NCAA.  Not hearing anyone say they should fall between 33-36. But as you agreed in another thread, the fact that four separate tournaments culminated in a Final Four in Atlanta means that Wichita State is not automatically the #3 or #4 team at the end of the year (just as Michigan can not lay automatic claim to #2).  Duke was dismissed by Louisville as well - no one can say Wichita State is better than Duke or should be ranked higher than Duke because they made the Final Four and Duke did not - but then you've already agreed with all this, so let's stop bringing it up. 
  See above, the 'different tournaments' argument just holds no water.  Ya gets and plays what ya gets.  This isn't everyone plays everyone.  Never heard anyone make this argument before.  To me it's a splinter argument which carries no weight.  How come Louisville is #1 if they basically only won 'one tournament"? (only played one team from one of the other three 'tournaments')

Bottom line - Louisville is #1 and no other position was proven or claimed through the results of the tournament.  Head to heads certainly need to be considered, especially if the winning team advanced beyond that one encounter.  Teams that played in separate regions (tournaments) can not be compared to each other based on how far they advanced in their particular region - since they were unable to show actual results against each other.   Disagree; it's all one tournament. Of course they can be compared to each other.  Those who say that the tourney doesn't matter much are going about 100% on opinion, on comparison.  I go with a bit of opinion but mostly on actual results in the NCAAs. 

    If they "can not be compared to each other" (a too absolutist position) then how can you compare teams for ranking them...puzzling, given that those who argue against me favor opinion over actual--but here you are saying opinion/comparison is not a good standard.


Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/10/2013 5:29 PM
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Oh, man. Sorry.

In responding to every little point...point by point...I just became the former Bobcat Dragon.
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Posted: 4/10/2013 10:50 PM
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No, you are just being Monroe. 

So by your logic.  Wichita State is better than, and should be ranked higher than Duke.  Why?  Because Duke won in the tournament until they ran into Louisville and lost on a Sunday in the Regional Finals.  But Wichita State won in the tournament until they ran into Louisville and lost on a Saturday in the Final Four - 6 days after Duke lost.  That's classic.
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Posted: 4/11/2013 12:08 AM
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I can see arguments that a particular team MIGHT have done better if they'd been placed in another region, but that's all hypothetical.  You really don't know.  They might have done worse.  They might have been bounced in the first round rather than getting to the Elite 8.  I'd rather have my rankings based on what really happened on the court rather than what some expert thinks might have happened in some make believe world.  Some of you seem to think the tournament is a nice little diversion that crowns the winner of the NCAA Roulette Wheel Championship but that the polls of experts (be they coaches or sportswriters) really tell us the true ranking of teams.  I totally disagree.  I'll take the tournament results every time over expert pontification.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 4/11/2013 1:32 AM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
No, you are just being Monroe. 

So by your logic.  Wichita State is better than, and should be ranked higher than Duke.  Why?  Because Duke won in the tournament until they ran into Louisville and lost on a Sunday in the Regional Finals.  But Wichita State won in the tournament until they ran into Louisville and lost on a Saturday in the Final Four - 6 days after Duke lost.  That's classic.


Nice.  We finally get to it.  It's my holding to an opinion that irks you.  Because it's me, my opinion.

I've opined that you are incorrect.  I've stated that my approach is different.  But that you are welcome to your different point of view.  Can't you just leave it at that without getting personal.

Yes, I'd take Wichita State.  From what I saw they were mighty tough when it counted.

O.  No.  Monroe, you can't take Wichita State.  No way they could be better than Duke.    ...Unless you were watching.



Your adherence to tired orthodoxy is boring.
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