Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: R Johnson- injury
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Hawaiian Bobcat
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Posted: 1/8/2014 1:49 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
As much as I wish he could have be coaxed into staying longer, I agree. John was always going to leave Athens for a bigger program. It was just a matter of when. I take a lot of joy in watching his Illini teams do well.


THe real Karma here is when Illinois fans realize they are not a blueblood and he takes one of the premier jobs in the country.....When COach K retires or Self loses to a few more SDSU's of the world at home you may see JG in a lifetime job.


There is no way he could turn down the Illinois situation. Money is nice, perks are nice but far overshadowing that is facilities, nutrition, training room, medical staff, recruiting tools and a variety of other intangibles that make the job really hard to turn down.

I want to be able to keep a coach until a 1% job is offered ala Brad Stevens. I think Ohio can strive and should strive to be able to compete with no better than the 5th best job in the Big 10.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 1:52 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
This story involving Coach Groce also makes you pull for the Illini.

http://illiniboard.com/2014/01/02/powerful/
It tells me we didn't offer Groce enough to keep him. I am happy with JC because he's a great coach. Groce might be a once in a generation leader for a program.
I wish I would have worded this response better. The story makes GoCatsGo want to pull for the Illini. It makes Hawaiian Bobcat want to improve the infrastructure so that Ohio can keep a coach of that caliber. In no way it made me want to pull for the Illini.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 6:13 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
I want to be able to keep a coach until a 1% job is offered ala Brad Stevens. I think Ohio can strive and should strive to be able to compete with no better than the 5th best job in the Big 10.


I want to have dinner with Andre Agassi. We all have pipe dreams.
Last Edited: 1/8/2014 6:40:55 PM by JSF
Hawaiian Bobcat
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Posted: 1/8/2014 6:32 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I want to be able to keep a coach until a 1% job is offered ala Brad Stevens. I think Ohio can strive and should strive to be able to compete with no better than the 5th best job in the Big 10.


I want to have dinner with Andre Agassi. We all have pipe dreams.


Keep aiming low
JSF
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Posted: 1/8/2014 6:41 PM
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 6:59 PM

Hey, isn't that the guy in Pete Chouteau's previous avatar?
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Posted: 1/8/2014 7:10 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.

I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga. Before somebody says anything about football try on Utah, Boise St., and TCU. There is a mix of state and private schools. All of these programs have advanced past the fan's wildest dreams. Many of them kept or is keeping coaches way longer then they were suppose too.

Will we ever get there probably not but to say never and to give up is just a crappy way to live. I'm sure the Optimist would agree with me. Were you like this before the Regional Semi-Final in 2012?
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Posted: 1/8/2014 8:24 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.



I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga.


Those four schools have something in common Ohio does not share.
Hawaiian Bobcat
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Posted: 1/8/2014 9:05 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.



I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga.


Those four schools have something in common Ohio does not share.
Learn to read an entire post there tough guy.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 9:15 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.



I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga.


Those four schools have something in common Ohio does not share.


Learn to read an entire post there tough guy.


Would you rather I quote the entire thing and take up more space? It doesn't change my response. I said  there was no realistic path and all you've done is tell me I'm a quitter and respond "others did it." They have. We haven't. How exactly do you propose we get there? You're big on wishes and short on ideas.

What did I do in 2012? I posted this. I have a pretty good grip on the reality of the situation.
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Posted: 1/8/2014 9:19 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.



I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga. Before somebody says anything about football try on Utah, Boise St., and TCU. There is a mix of state and private schools. All of these programs have advanced past the fan's wildest dreams. Many of them kept or is keeping coaches way longer then they were suppose too.

Will we ever get there probably not but to say never and to give up is just a crappy way to live. I'm sure the Optimist would agree with me. Were you like this before the Regional Semi-Final in 2012?

Those schools you mention are 100% committed to the program that brings the dollars in. Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga are 100% committed to building a legit powerhouse basketball program. And it shows. They sell out almost every game, get the recruits then want and have the intangibles to succeed at that level. Utah, Boise State and TCU are the same way for football. They know what drives their bus and they pump the money into that gas tank like no other. If TCU was a destination basketball job, which it's not, JC never leaves Fort Worth. He saw the writing on the wall once they moved to the Big 12. TCU is a football school, without question. 100%. 

Ohio invests 50/50 in football and basketball. Being where we are now in the MAC, it's simply not possible to achieve what we all want. Another reason to be interested in all the conference shifting is to see where Ohio lands in football. That will determine the long term future of Ohio basketball. Until then, as long as we're spending money the way we do in both sports, it's a pipe dream. One that we all share, but still a dream. 

Unless Ohio is thrown millions of dollars a la T. Boone Pickens at Oklahoma State. But even then, where does it go? Football? Basketball? Both? 

 
OhioStunter
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Posted: 1/9/2014 11:09 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Those schools you mention are 100% committed to the program that brings the dollars in. Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga are 100% committed to building a legit powerhouse basketball program. And it shows. They sell out almost every game, get the recruits then want and have the intangibles to succeed at that level. Utah, Boise State and TCU are the same way for football. They know what drives their bus and they pump the money into that gas tank like no other. 

 

Not disagreeing with you, just making an observation. While Utah, Boise State and TCU are pumping resources into their programs for football (you are right, they have), it hasn't gotten them very far this year. In fact, Utah and TCU are ranked near Ohio in the USA Today football ranking (#75 and #79, respectively). My point to the board is that even focusing on one sport is no guarantee of the success you are looking for.

Over the past five years, Ohio's MBB and football programs rank in the Top 30 in combined wins among all schools. I like the successful balance sustained over several years. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment given the school's budget.

 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 11:18 AM
Spokane, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Richmond, Athens.  Hmmm, what am I missing?  Oh right, population and corporations.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 11:54 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Those schools you mention are 100% committed to the program that brings the dollars in. Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga are 100% committed to building a legit powerhouse basketball program. And it shows. They sell out almost every game, get the recruits then want and have the intangibles to succeed at that level. Utah, Boise State and TCU are the same way for football. They know what drives their bus and they pump the money into that gas tank like no other. 

 

Not disagreeing with you, just making an observation. While Utah, Boise State and TCU are pumping resources into their programs for football (you are right, they have), it hasn't gotten them very far this year. In fact, Utah and TCU are ranked near Ohio in the USA Today football ranking (#75 and #79, respectively). My point to the board is that even focusing on one sport is no guarantee of the success you are looking for.

Over the past five years, Ohio's MBB and football programs rank in the Top 30 in combined wins among all schools. I like the successful balance sustained over several years. That's a pretty amazing accomplishment given the school's budget.

 


You posted the same link when referring to Utah and TCU on the football board and I'll give the same argument. Utah and TCU just moved to bigger conferences and are struggling a little bit to find their footing. This was TCU's first losing season in eight years. Utah beat three bowl teams and lost to another by one. I agree it's an amzing accomplishment for Ohio, but wait and see what happens in the future with Utah and TCU once the money from the conferences start flowing in on an annual basis.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:09 PM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
Spokane, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Richmond, Athens.  Hmmm, what am I missing?  Oh right, population and corporations.

This is a great point. We can't escape the fact that Ohio is in a poor and sparsely populated area. To really drill that point home, here are two comparisons in our own conference:
  • Major Akron sponsor Summa has 11,000 employees. Major Ohio sponsor Holzer Clinic has a smattering of locations in seven of the poorest counties in Appalachia.
  • Major Akron sponsor First Merit has $24 billion in assets under management. Major Ohio sponsor Citizens Bank has seven branches.

 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:16 PM
It is only a pipe dream if you think we are all here rooting for Athens University or Southeast Ohio State University... If I did not believe that our name gave us an opportunity to penetrate markets in the entire state of "Ohio" I would also start calling us "Ohio U" and give up on the dream of Ohio Bobcats athletics helping to take this entire University to the next level.

I wish we could have put up more cash to keep Groce. Groce was very selective in selecting his first head coaching job (Ohio) in picking a program he knew he could succeed at a very high level at. I think he was similarly methodical in choosing Illinois. That isn't a 1% job like Kansas, Duke, Kentucky, but that is pretty close to that level. Getting to the point where we can avoid losing coaches to programs like that is another step after the one we are taking now. That said, I don't think we are going to be a "stepping-stone job" for much longer. The more Iook at the Christian hire the more I love it. He didn't just leave TCU because he wanted to get back to the MAC. He came here because we have made some good investments in the program riding the recent wave of success and if this is done right we are going to be on the next level very soon.

Our annual budget on men's hoops is way ahead of the MAC, we are recruiting on the next level and all of a sudden it is looking like we are set up for another special winning season. I think we have hit reload status, and unlike Kent 10 years ago we are making the larger investments in the program to capitalize on the bigger scale for what that kind of success brings.

There have been some mentions of our strong and loud road crowds the last couple years. The Ohio MACC crowd last year was ridiculous. What a showing. That isn't a coincidence.
We are going to have an amazing crowd Sunday for Akron and the atmosphere is truly going to feel like a "big-time" program. I don't think this program is far from the next level.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 12:42 PM
It will be interesting to see how the students turn out now that DJ and the other guys are gone. Now that break is over and basketball season is in full swing, we should get a good indication about the student involvement in the games. I bet most of them haven't even seen Mo Ndour play yet.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 5:39 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Point is, I think we all want to be at that level. But there's no realistic path toward getting there.



I'm sure they thought that at Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga. Before somebody says anything about football try on Utah, Boise St., and TCU. There is a mix of state and private schools. All of these programs have advanced past the fan's wildest dreams. Many of them kept or is keeping coaches way longer then they were suppose too.

Will we ever get there probably not but to say never and to give up is just a crappy way to live. I'm sure the Optimist would agree with me. Were you like this before the Regional Semi-Final in 2012?


Those schools you mention are 100% committed to the program that brings the dollars in. Butler, Xavier, VCU and Gonzaga are 100% committed to building a legit powerhouse basketball program. And it shows. They sell out almost every game, get the recruits then want and have the intangibles to succeed at that level. Utah, Boise State and TCU are the same way for football. They know what drives their bus and they pump the money into that gas tank like no other. If TCU was a destination basketball job, which it's not, JC never leaves Fort Worth. He saw the writing on the wall once they moved to the Big 12. TCU is a football school, without question. 100%.

Ohio invests 50/50 in football and basketball. Being where we are now in the MAC, it's simply not possible to achieve what we all want. Another reason to be interested in all the conference shifting is to see where Ohio lands in football. That will determine the long term future of Ohio basketball. Until then, as long as we're spending money the way we do in both sports, it's a pipe dream. One that we all share, but still a dream.

Unless Ohio is thrown millions of dollars a la T. Boone Pickens at Oklahoma State. But even then, where does it go? Football? Basketball? Both?
I am glad you brought Utah back up. There is a program in the 15 years before they received their bid to the PAC 12. They won two BCS games including one against Alabama. They also played for the National Championship in basketball. I don't think all of their money went to football. Salt Lake City is a bigger market than Athens but I have a feeling their 90 minute/2 hour market is similar. We have issues in our state getting a large portion of the media attention, I have a feeling they dealt with same situation with another institution in their own state. Utah has a slightly larger enrolment and a notably larger endowment.

Since people have asked how would you do it? I would look at Utah's fund raising, scheduling, and coaching salaries dating as far back as 1980. Somebody at Utah had a vision and it was achieved. I don't have a degree in Sports Administration but that's where I would start. The critical part is to have charismatic leadership and change the old way of thinking.

Here is another kicker not every great college athletic program is based in a large market. There are small market programs made the jump to be with the elite in my lifetime (34 years). There are schools that weren't even playing FBS football 30 years ago and winning BCS games or earning #2 rankings in the BCS.

My first live Ohio athletic experience was the 5-0 Utah St. game almost 20 years ago. Look how far Ohio athletics has come in 20 years! Why be satisfied?

I am super excited about the start to the basketball season. I wish we'd found away to win a least one of the ones we lost but we did steal a couple on the road. Opening MAC play with a win on the road is great. Going to 5 straight bowl games is great. This a great time to be a Bobcat but why look at it as the peak when might only be the beginning. Sorry if that's not a realistic enough view for some people.

JSF nothing is impossible somethings in life might take more breaks than others.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.101506037424036...
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Posted: 1/9/2014 6:54 PM
But Utah isn't at the level you said you wanted.

It's not impossible, but it's also not a fair, realistic, or healthy goal to put on the people in charge.
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Posted: 1/9/2014 7:10 PM
Utah kept Majerus as long as they wanted. After their Final 4 run he could have been grabbed by someone else, but he stayed. The marriage did not end well but they kept their once in a generation coach for longer than 3 years. If we get a coach with tenure of Majerus in Athens, we'd want to name the floor after him. If in 20 years our athletic department has the record of Utah, please by all means sign me up.

I don't think Schaus or McDavis gives two hoots about my opinion. I will keep them where I want. Just like you keep your opinions where you want. I don't think it is unfair or unhealthy to think wanting my school to want to compete and perform at the highest levels; or wanting coaches to want to stay instead of this being a "stepping stone."
Last Edited: 1/9/2014 7:20:09 PM by Hawaiian Bobcat
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Posted: 1/9/2014 9:02 PM
hawaiian bobcat wrote:expand_more
Utah kept Majerus as long as they wanted. After their Final 4 run he could have been grabbed by someone else, but he stayed. The marriage did not end well but they kept their once in a generation coach for longer than 3 years. If we get a coach with tenure of Majerus in Athens, we'd want to name the floor after him. If in 20 years our athletic department has the record of Utah, please by all means sign me up.

I don't think Schaus or McDavis gives two hoots about my opinion. I will keep them where I want. Just like you keep your opinions where you want. I don't think it is unfair or unhealthy to think wanting my school to want to compete and perform at the highest levels; or wanting coaches to want to stay instead of this being a "stepping stone."

I don't think its unfair or unhealthy for you to want that either. Would I love to see that? Hell yes I would. The problem is the money. Where does that come from? 

And yes, maybe we need to start looking for newer and exciting revenue streams, but that's easier said than done. When someone looks at investing into Ohio athletics, they don't put that money down without looking at their ROI. What's the benefit for them? Especially in the economy we have now, people are being more and more wise of where they spend their dollars. In their eyes, spending money on building Ohio's sports teams isn't a top priority. 

And unfortunately, Ohio athletics has limitations that some other schools don't. We have how many other Division I schools in this state? I count eight FBS (Ohio, Ohio State, Miami, BG, Toledo, Kent State, Akron and UC) and then a handful of other schools with hoops programs (Xavier, Dayton, Wright State, Youngstown State, Cleveland State). Please inform me if I'm missing any. We have so much more competition than a Boise State or Utah that it's tough to compare the two. 

 
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Posted: 1/9/2014 9:49 PM
Going back to the football/basketball thing...

Is there an example of a non-AQ program that has sustained consistent success in football AND men's basketball over 5+ years? Many of the examples cited have only seen success in one or the other.

If you look at both sports, perhaps WE are actually the best example? Crazy to think about...but we have 5 straight bowls and 2 NCAA Tournaments in 4 years and one NIT (along with NCAA wins). Can anyone think of a mid-major that can top this?? Cause I'm struggling...
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Posted: 1/9/2014 10:36 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
It is only a pipe dream if you think we are all here rooting for Athens University or Southeast Ohio State University... If I did not believe that our name gave us an opportunity to penetrate markets in the entire state of "Ohio" I would also start calling us "Ohio U" and give up on the dream of Ohio Bobcats athletics helping to take this entire University to the next level.


We can brand ourselves as Ohio all we want.  But when it comes to financial growth and stability we would need ticket sales.  And when it comes to ticket sales we have to have a realistic business plan and that plan is impacted by location.  We simply can not generate the ticket sales income (quantity and more importantly price) needed to sustain a program such as VCU, Gonzaga, etc.

We are not going to gain ticket volume by getting folks in Cincy or Cleveland or elsewhere to come in for weekday games on any regular basis.  Even getting consistent flow from outside our immediate footprint for weekend games is difficult.

Now let's talk ticket prices and look at VCU and Gonzaga.

VCU hits as high as $5,000 per ticket for season tickets.  Those are annual levels for tickets:
http://www.vcuathletics.com/tickets/Files/VCU_AP_SCS__SEA...

Want Gonzaga season tickets?  Can't get them.  Waiting list.  But you can go to the San Diego game for $250 a ticket:
http://www.stubhub.com/gonzaga-basketball-tickets/?gcid=C...

A far cry from Ohio plans:
http://www.ohiobobcats.com/basketball/ohio-12-season-tick...
http://www.ohiobobcats.com/basketball/ohio-12-premium-sea...

We can dream all we want.  But at some point we need to be realistic from a business standpoint,
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Posted: 1/9/2014 10:49 PM
Quote:expand_more
Major Ohio sponsor Citizens Bank has seven branches.


all we had to play with were "sticks" when I was a kid...............
Last Edited: 1/9/2014 10:50:39 PM by RSBobcat
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Posted: 1/9/2014 10:53 PM
It goes beyond just ticket sales. Sponsorships, TV, donations...it all plays a role. We just don't have the capacity it seems.

We do a good job "maximizing" our situation, it seems to me. But (at least so long as we're in the MAC), I do envision a ceiling.

I know last year we set the all-time ticket revenue record for the MAC, and I'd imagine we might even break that this year. According to the OBC brochure, we're actually lower-middle in the MAC for donations...which surprised me. Not sure where we are for sponsorship $$$?
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