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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official CIT Tournament Quarterfinals Thread: VMI
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The Optimist
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Posted: 3/24/2014 2:05 PM
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Thanks for posting the VMI info.
 

I like that we have the size advantage but I am concerned we don't have the depth down low to run with these guys. If we had our full frontcourt, I would be feeling better. This would be a huge game for NDour to return to his healthy form..
 

Also sounds to me like we may need to rely heavily on Setty this game.

OUVan
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Posted: 3/24/2014 2:34 PM
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VMI Commenter wrote:expand_more
I believe that the other teams, Canisius and IPFW, seemed totally unprepared for that style (even though there has been considerable national media attention to it over the years and one player in the NBA from VMI.... Reggie Williams).


VMI had a couple of nice teams back in the mid 70s.  Ron Carter was a heck of a player and they were the media darlings for a while.  This should be a fun game.
Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 3/24/2014 2:48 PM
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A good team with a fast-paced offense worries me.  Ohio just doesn't have the healthy bodies right now to keep up.  I mean, the team hasn't had a 5-on-5 practice in two months! 
Last Edited: 3/24/2014 2:48:49 PM by Mark Lembright '85
Joe McKinley
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Posted: 3/24/2014 2:57 PM
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Former Ohio assistant Ramon Williams was the VMI #3 all time leading  scorer (1,630), and held single game and season three point goals made records heading into this season. He and twin brother,Damon, are among the most prolific sibling scoring combos in NCAA history, and, are in the VMI hall of fame. Coach Williams, wife Donnie and their sons are very nice people. Donnie was one of the former coaches' spouses who made it back for 2013 senior day. I don't know if Coach Williams will stay at Virginia Tech with the coaching change.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/24/2014 3:39 PM
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Some odd metrics on KenPom for VMI.  I would think that a fast paced offense would be full of turnovers both for and against but that's not the case.  VMI turns the ball over at the 5th lowest rate in the nation and they cause turnovers at the 322nd best rate.  As has been mentioned the Keydets are 2nd in the nation in tempo but UNC-Asheville was 16th as well.  Unfortunately, they only played once, a 109-105 barnburner won by VMI.

Overall it's been a nice year for the Big South. Coastal Carolina gave Virginia a tough game before finally succumbing in the NCAA tournament.  High Point hung tough with Minnesota in the NIT.  Radford went up to Corvallis and took out Oregon State in the CBI and plays tonight at ODU.  And VMI has a couple of solid wins in the CIT.
MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 3/24/2014 4:37 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
Some odd metrics on KenPom for VMI.  I would think that a fast paced offense would be full of turnovers both for and against but that's not the case.  VMI turns the ball over at the 5th lowest rate in the nation and they cause turnovers at the 322nd best rate.  .

I'm not sure the low TO rate is surprising--don't force a pass and when you are open BANG!

Dribble penetration and making the extra pass is what leads to TOs of course they also lead to burning shot clock and wide open excellent looks if you are like Dayton and move the around!

I'd look at films and see on average how many passes they throw before VMI players chuck it up towards the rim. (also look at the type D Coastal Carolina employed to stymie VCI)  If the tendency is to shoot within three passes than the defense can gamble and know that a D player can over commit to help if VMI doesn't usually pull it back and attack again.  Play tough M2M and overweight towards the ball handler and the two closest guys to him. OUr bigs should kinda play a quasi zone cutting off the cross court passing and alley oops.  AND cut down on VMI's ability to rebound at the offensive end.  

On offense OHIO should use their height advantage and pound it to Campbell while Mo, Setty, and Hall crash the boards.  There will likely be some opportunities for stick backs if VMI is looking to kick it out quickly and the guards leave the elbows for the outlet pass.  Bean, Stevie, Travis and Nick by getting to the elbow on offensive shots may have a field day bringing in second chances opportunities.  

Prediction--Soft hook from Campbell really produces--TC scores = or >18.
 
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 3/24/2014 5:33 PM
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MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
Some odd metrics on KenPom for VMI.  I would think that a fast paced offense would be full of turnovers both for and against but that's not the case.  VMI turns the ball over at the 5th lowest rate in the nation and they cause turnovers at the 322nd best rate.  .

I'm not sure the low TO rate is surprising--don't force a pass and when you are open BANG!

Many times teams speed up the pace the most by trapping and pressuring all over the pace and thus causing turnovers. I'm not sure if VMI does this, but regardless, it doesn't cause many turnovers. You are probably right that VMI's low turnover rate comes in part because it has the ball for so little time, there aren't that many chances to commit a turnover.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/24/2014 7:57 PM
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VMI Commentator, good to have you on board.  Thanks for the informative post!

I remember back when Marshall was in the Southern Conference and VMI was there too. 

Unlike several posters, I'm not worried about Ohio trying to keep pace with VMI.  I actually think it's physically tougher going up against a grinder team like Cleveland State or Wright State. 

Should be a good game.  Glad the athletic dept is promoting it among the students.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 3/24/2014 8:00 PM
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This is one of our best preview threads in a long time. Chock full of interesting information.

I thought I'd break that string of great posts with this useless one.
L.C.
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Posted: 3/24/2014 8:41 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
VMI had a couple of nice teams back in the mid 70s.  Ron Carter was a heck of a player and they were the media darlings for a while.  This should be a fun game.

I don't remember if it was the 76 or 77 team, but VMI made a run to the Sweet 16. There were really outmanned, but made up for it with effort. There was a running gag, as I recall, that the interim VMI coach was using his "contract renewal" offense, trying to get a permanent job.
OUnut
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Posted: 3/24/2014 8:52 PM
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1976 final 8
1977 final 16
L.C.
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Posted: 3/24/2014 9:15 PM
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76 Coach was Bill Blair who went on to coach at Colorado and in the NBA (Nets, Timberwolves). Schmaus had a great year in 77, but his record has a pretty distinct pattern:
77 - 26-4
78 - 21-7
79 - 12-15
80 - 11-16
81 - 4-23
82 - 1-25

I'm thinking it was probably Blair with the "contract renewal offense", if that team made the Final 8. I remember that everyone was surprised at how well they were doing. Maybe our VMI poster recalls those years.
Last Edited: 3/24/2014 9:18:56 PM by L.C.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3/24/2014 9:20 PM
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VMI Commenter wrote:expand_more
I am a VMI graduate and a follower of their basketball team (no official connection to the program/ school). I happened upon this site in anticipation of the Wednesday game and thought that I would throw my own two cents in- especially since there is no comparable message board for VMI athletics.
So I come as a visitor and with respect.
VMI has played some of its best basketball in the last two games (against Canisius and IPFW). Both teams came in rated significantly higher in the RPI and we handled them both fairly easily. A lot of that has to do, I believe, with the style of play that VMI employs. It's the classic uptempo, Paul Westhead-style. Ever since our current coach went to it, VMI has achieved success way beyond what it had done previously. It's important to note that this is all relative, that we are now averaging about 17 wins per season, after averaging about 10 prior to the "system."
Teams in the Big South have generally gotten used to it and can effectively counter it. Coastal Carolina, the tourney winner, did so and held us to a fraction of what we put up in the CIT.
I believe that the other teams, Canisius and IPFW, seemed totally unprepared for that style (even though there has been considerable national media attention to it over the years and one player in the NBA from VMI.... Reggie Williams).
So I am hoping that Ohio does the same, but that seems unlikely.
We are painfully small: three guard lineup all below or around 6 feet.
Power forwards are all small forward size.
Our center, DJ Covington, has been playing out of his mind recently. He is undersized at 6-8 but he completely took IPFW's center out of the game.
We shoot a lot of threes (and indeed don't make a very good percentage).
Did I mention that we play very little defense? Covington is a tremendous shot blocker but is prone to foul trouble. Other than that, the strategy is to go for the steal and then give up a 2.
We ran a 1-3-1 at IPFW which had some success
INTANGIBLES: similar to your squad, there seems to be a bit of "team of destiny" aura around this squad. Covington and the point guard, Rodney Glasgow, are seniors and have been eliminated in the Conference Tournament Semis or Finals in most of their years. There was thus a huge feeling of regret particularly because it is hard to recruit big men to a military school and this is Covington's last year.

CONCLUSION: It should be an interesting game and I would not be surprised at any outcome. Our road game in the first round was interesting, again, because it just seemed like Canisius looked at our RPI and the fact that VMI was a small military school and then thought it would be a cakewalk at home. We went up 15-0 and it was more or less over.
FYI...I loved watching Paul Westhead's Loyola Marymount teams...
cbarber357
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Posted: 3/24/2014 10:54 PM
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Not to overlook VMI, but how many more games do we need to play for Ric to get a medical redshirt?
anorris
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Posted: 3/24/2014 11:42 PM
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cbarber357 wrote:expand_more
Not to overlook VMI, but how many more games do we need to play for Ric to get a medical redshirt?
More than we can potentially play.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/25/2014 8:57 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Unlike several posters, I'm not worried about Ohio trying to keep pace with VMI.  I actually think it's physically tougher going up against a grinder team like Cleveland State or Wright State. 


I agree especially for the bigs who have to work their butts off on every possession trying to get position.
71 BOBCAT
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:07 AM
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I for 1 will be curious to see what JC's game plan is for this game.
I do not believe we can run with this team and win.





GO BOBCATS
VMI Commenter
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:39 AM
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I was definitely not around during the glory days (1976-1977) of VMI basketball. Not alive, in fact. Ron Carter spoke at one of the graduation ceremonies, however, when I was a cadet and was quite impressive. His son later played hoops at Minnesota and UIC.
Duggar Baucom, VMI's coach, often emphasizes the current seniors as the "winningest class" in VMI history. I think that while paying homage to the Elite Eight squad, he worries about the nostalgia inherent in the remembrance and the almost willful forgetfulness of VMI's mediocrity since then. I think that that's a problem with a lot of organizations and institutions but particularly a conservative military college with a tendency to look towards the past.
Again, just a matter of perspective on how unique this opportunity in the CIT is for the Keydets.
Nothing more really to report: unlike the Bobcats, we come into tomorrow's with relatively few injuries and have been so blessed throughout the year.
brucecuth
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Posted: 3/25/2014 9:58 AM
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my sportsbook has it at Ohio -8, total of 162.5
100%Cat
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Posted: 3/25/2014 10:29 AM
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VMI Commenter wrote:expand_more
I was definitely not around during the glory days (1976-1977) of VMI basketball. Not alive, in fact. Ron Carter spoke at one of the graduation ceremonies, however, when I was a cadet and was quite impressive. His son later played hoops at Minnesota and UIC.
Duggar Baucom, VMI's coach, often emphasizes the current seniors as the "winningest class" in VMI history. I think that while paying homage to the Elite Eight squad, he worries about the nostalgia inherent in the remembrance and the almost willful forgetfulness of VMI's mediocrity since then. I think that that's a problem with a lot of organizations and institutions but particularly a conservative military college with a tendency to look towards the past.
Again, just a matter of perspective on how unique this opportunity in the CIT is for the Keydets.
Nothing more really to report: unlike the Bobcats, we come into tomorrow's with relatively few injuries and have been so blessed throughout the year.


I have seen no VMI games this year, but looking down their results the point differentials are really wide ranging.  Can you comment on how a team like Coastal Carolina held them in the 60's where other teams are giving up 100+ points to them?  I've never seen a Westhead-style attack in person, how is it so drastically slowed down?
Bob Haldeman
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Posted: 3/25/2014 1:26 PM
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Love QJ Peterson in what little I've seen of him. Just want him to play one-on-one vs Andrew Rowsey, Bird v. Magic video game-style, in some sort of feedback loop.

Am actually more interested in what VMI looks like next year. How many shots will Jon Elmore be permitted? Is 30 per game sufficient?
VMI Commenter
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Posted: 3/25/2014 2:05 PM
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Quote:expand_more
I have seen no VMI games this year, but looking down their results the point differentials are really wide ranging. Can you comment on how a team like Coastal Carolina held them in the 60's where other teams are giving up 100+ points to them? I've never seen a Westhead-style attack in person, how is it so drastically slowed down?


I think you have zeroed in on the key to the game. The teams that do seem ready for the uptempo style, such as Coastal, usually can find a way around it.
The start of the game is usually really essential for VMI: establishing the flow of play, keeping Covington out of foul trouble, and finding a rhythm.
I would say for VMI to win, a quick start is almost essential, because we have no counter to the style that we play. If we miss shots, or get frustrated or go down a few, that usually means we have to claw back defensively.
Even with a quick start, we can lose a lead (especially in the 1st four minutes of the second half) because the style is conducive to long runs of play.
VMI Commenter
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Posted: 3/25/2014 2:07 PM
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Agreed on Jon Elmore coming into the fold and getting absolute free reign.
Interestingly, THIS VMI team is not playing at the historic rates from the Reggie Williams, Holmes twins teams. A lot of that has to do with the presence of DJ Covington in the middle.
I expect next year with Covington and Glasgow gone, that Peterson and Elmore will be unconscious.
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Posted: 3/25/2014 5:44 PM
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The key to this game will be OHIO not having a slow start to start the game and setting a good defensive tone.
TheBobcatBandit
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Posted: 3/25/2014 11:58 PM
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I don't really think when you play teams like this there is much you can do to win or lose. If they're hot they'll win if they're not they'll lose.

Edit: I mean look at when we played Georgetown. What could they have really done to stop us from hitting that many shots.
Last Edited: 3/25/2014 11:59:20 PM by TheBobcatBandit
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