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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: MAC Conference, and other Tournaments discussion?
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OUVan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 10:55 AM
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100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Who else thinks Murray St is going to get shafted come Sunday? They went undefeated in the OVC, had a 25 game winning streak, ranked in the top 25...lose on a fall away 3 to Belmont in the tourney title game and I bet they are NIT bound because of it. I'm sure the mediocre teams in Power 5 conferences will get rewarded for being 9-7 in their league while a mid major power that went 16-0 in their league will get told "better luck next year."

If you can't tell, that's a sore spot for me.
I wouldn't call Murray State not getting a bid as a shafting. They only played 3 in the top 100 and they were absolutely destroyed in two of those. Some 9-7 team from a power conference might steal a bid from someone but it won't be Murray State. Their schedule makes Akron's from 5 years ago look tough.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 11:02 AM
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100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Who else thinks Murray St is going to get shafted come Sunday? They went undefeated in the OVC, had a 25 game winning streak, ranked in the top 25...lose on a fall away 3 to Belmont in the tourney title game and I bet they are NIT bound because of it. I'm sure the mediocre teams in Power 5 conferences will get rewarded for being 9-7 in their league while a mid major power that went 16-0 in their league will get told "better luck next year."

If you can't tell, that's a sore spot for me.

And yet they did not go out and play or beat any of those teams. Buffalo is at least getting a nod for their schedule but Murray has an SOS , RPI and any other metric that says they blew off the committee and thumbed their nose at them choosing to have a gaudy win streak over getting some meat in the schedule. Not saying undefeated laegue play is easy but you got to at least understand the philosophy of selection and what the guys in the room look at to be able to make a decision. I am a proponent of the mids and wil fight most guys on this issue but, for me, Murray just did not even give a care as to what that resume was gonna look like. At least when Tyndall was at Morehead they had some big ones on the schedule.
Victory
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Posted: 3/11/2015 11:41 AM
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Murray State isn't a mid-major. They are a low-major and getting a bid out of a conference like that usually means getting a few good OOC wins or only having 2 or 3 losses.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/11/2015 12:40 PM
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Victory wrote:expand_more
Murray State isn't a mid-major. They are a low-major and getting a bid out of a conference like that usually means getting a few good OOC wins or only having 2 or 3 losses.
I would argue that the OVC is indeed mid-major, but we're arguing semantics here. Bottom line, they're a good program, and a pretty good conference. I'm still of the option that they deserve a bid more than a 7-8 win major conference team does.
Casper71
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Posted: 3/11/2015 12:50 PM
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I am with 100% on this. I get tired of seeing Power teams with 8-8 or so Conference records getting in over a team like Murray St or even Buffalo. Those mediocre Power schools have shown they can't play with the elite teams in their conference night in and night out. I fail to see how anyone can use the OBJECTIVE RPI criteria against the Murrays and Buffalos. They can't so they go to some other thing like SOS or last ten games or whatever to say a mids doesn't belong. I just don't like that approach.

Let's see if Murray or Buffalo can play or not. I already know those mediocre Power teams with some consideration right now: Indiana, Texas, Miami, Fl, UCLA, etc. can't play with the big boys in their conferences.
bobcatsquared
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Posted: 3/11/2015 1:06 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Those mediocre Power schools have shown they can't play with the elite teams in their conference night in and night out. I fail to see how anyone can use the OBJECTIVE RPI criteria against the Murrays and Buffalos. They can't so they go to some other thing like SOS or last ten games or whatever to say a mids doesn't belong. I just don't like that approach.
They not only have shown they can't play with the elite teams in the conference, but more importantly I believe, they refuse to play road games v. Buffalo, Murray St., etc. . .
They use RPI when it benefits their arugment, some other metric when the RPI hurts their argument.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 1:17 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Let's see if Murray or Buffalo can play or not. I already know those mediocre Power teams with some consideration right now: Indiana, Texas, Miami, Fl, UCLA, etc. can't play with the big boys in their conferences.
I'm not usually a defender of the power conference teams but at least Indiana played a very tough OOC schedule. The one place mids can level the playing field is by playing a good schedule outside your conference.

Indiana played SMU, Butler, Louisville, Georgetown, Pitt and Eastern Washington prior to league play starting. Only three of those were home games. The big boys don't need to, and in most instances, I'm looking at you tOSU, don't play many tough teams OOC because they know their in-conference schedule will give them enough toughies come selection time. Mids can not afford to play a soft OOC schedule. There is no other word you can use to describe Murray State's schedule other than soft. And if you only have two or three games against good teams (Xavier, Valpo, ISU) you had better beat them. Indiana's worse loss (@Northwestern 112 rpi) would have been Murray State's 3rd best win (68 ISU, 105 WKU).

Murray State blew this one, not the NCAA.
Last Edited: 3/11/2015 1:17:53 PM by OUVan
OUVan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 1:20 PM
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I should add that I don't think any team, no matter what your schedule is, should ever get an at-large with a losing record in conference.
Casper71
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Posted: 3/11/2015 2:48 PM
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Van, twice in one day...I agree 100%. No way an 8-10 Power team should ever get in. But, they have a good win or two so we must consider them. I say bull....I would just repeat their RPI is what it is and they are deserving over some 8-10 team from a Power Con with a lower one.
Last Edited: 3/11/2015 2:49:27 PM by Casper71
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 3:14 PM
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Van

All I have heard from IU tix holders is how bad their non con schedule is and then listened to Dakich compare Buffalo to IU to illustrate how it did not stack up to the "lowly MAC team that did everything they were supposed to do" while he was trying to get "IU guy in the camo hat to shut up about how Mid Major teams" could not possibly get an at large over a power conference team.

Fri, Nov 8 vs Chicago State
Tue, Nov 12 vs LIU Brooklyn
Fri, Nov 15 vs Samford
Sun, Nov 17 vs Stony Brooklyn
Thu, Nov 21 vs Eastern Washington
Fri, Nov 22 vs Connecticut
Tue, Nov 26 vs Evansville
Tue, Dec 3 @ Syracuse
Sat, Dec 7 vs North Florida
Tue, Dec 10 vs Oakland
Sat, Dec 14 vs Notre Dame
Fri, Dec 20 vs Nicholls State
Sun, Dec 22 vs Kennesaw State

Notre Dame and Syracuse were part of the BIG ACC challenge and Wooden Classic. Had those not been there was not much left . maybe someone has the willingness to look up the numbers to compare Murray and IU/PU/IL and such.

I agree with all of what you had to say save for the SOS of IU. I hope they lose tomorrow and this is over just to watch their fans lose their minds.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/11/2015 3:48 PM
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I love the use of SOS, but it should be Non-conference SOS that's used as an evaluator if you're comparing teams on the bubble line. Ohio's SOS in November and December was probably stronger than OSU's this year. For me, use non-conf SOS as the final deciding factor on a couple teams. If Team A chose to challenge itself noticeably more out of conference, they should be in. In that regard, I support not including Murray for a weaker non-conf, if they also did it to the OSU's and IU's of the world. The problem is, they probably wanted to play better games, but no one willingly gives them a decent game for a home and home.

It's never going away, but if the Selection Committee & NCAA would simply say to everyone, "if you want to be included in at-large discussion, you have to play three true road games in November and December." That alone would give mid-majors a better shot at scheduling better home games. The biggest problem, as we all know, with at-large comparisons from Majors to Mid-Majors is the unequal scheduling.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 4:42 PM
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I agree COuntry. That is why I talked about non con sos. Even with our schedule Fuss does a pretty good job finding teams like Mercer and similar that are gonna potentially be a tourney team.

OTOH you could always force those teams out of the friendly confines for 3 or 4 games a year or .....go to 128 on the first day and include regular season champs in addition to tourney champs. That way you get the most consistent winners and the hot team from the non power conferences.
OhioBobcat
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Posted: 3/11/2015 6:09 PM
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:expand_more
I want to see Buffalo cut down the nets in Cleveland. I think they give the conference the best chance off pulling off an upset in the tournament. After Akron was more than doubled up by VCU in 2013 and WMU was blownout by Cuse last year, the conference could use a better showing.
For me Buffalo falls into the group with Akron of teams that I could never root for. I'd like to see Bowling Green win though.
I feel the same way. I'd love to see BG win it but I have a feeling it's gonna be UB.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 3/11/2015 7:41 PM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I agree COuntry. That is why I talked about non con sos. Even with our schedule Fuss does a pretty good job finding teams like Mercer and similar that are gonna potentially be a tourney team.

OTOH you could always force those teams out of the friendly confines for 3 or 4 games a year or .....go to 128 on the first day and include regular season champs in addition to tourney champs. That way you get the most consistent winners and the hot team from the non power conferences.
I agree about forcing the big teams to play more (any) road OOC games. The change to RPI a few years ago that weights a home win as 0.6 and a road win as 1.4 helps provide a little balance, nut not nearly enough to change their behaviors.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 3/11/2015 8:42 PM
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Has it really been 11 years since we missed a trip to Cleveland for the tournament? We were 10 and 20 that year too.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 9:08 PM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Van

All I have heard from IU tix holders is how bad their non con schedule is and then listened to Dakich compare Buffalo to IU to illustrate how it did not stack up to the "lowly MAC team that did everything they were supposed to do" while he was trying to get "IU guy in the camo hat to shut up about how Mid Major teams" could not possibly get an at large over a power conference team.

Fri, Nov 8 vs Chicago State
Tue, Nov 12 vs LIU Brooklyn
Fri, Nov 15 vs Samford
Sun, Nov 17 vs Stony Brooklyn
Thu, Nov 21 vs Eastern Washington
Fri, Nov 22 vs Connecticut
Tue, Nov 26 vs Evansville
Tue, Dec 3 @ Syracuse
Sat, Dec 7 vs North Florida
Tue, Dec 10 vs Oakland
Sat, Dec 14 vs Notre Dame
Fri, Dec 20 vs Nicholls State
Sun, Dec 22 vs Kennesaw State

Notre Dame and Syracuse were part of the BIG ACC challenge and Wooden Classic. Had those not been there was not much left . maybe someone has the willingness to look up the numbers to compare Murray and IU/PU/IL and such.

I agree with all of what you had to say save for the SOS of IU. I hope they lose tomorrow and this is over just to watch their fans lose their minds.
That's their schedule from last year. This year they played SMU, Butler, Georgetown, Louisville, Pitt as well as a good Eastern Washington team. And for what it is worth I don't think they should get a bid but their schedule is tougher than Murray State's and most other big conference teams.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 9:39 PM
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you are right. Pulled that from the wrong website. Eastern Wash threw me.

This year looks better. Still not impressive to the folks trekking down to Bloomington for the cupcakes. Thanks for the correction.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/11/2015 9:50 PM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
you are right. Pulled that from the wrong website. Eastern Wash threw me.

This year looks better. Still not impressive to the folks trekking down to Bloomington for the cupcakes. Thanks for the correction.
Maybe not but you'd be hard pressed to find many good programs that play more toughies OOC than that. Indiana's problem isn't their OOC schedule. It's the fact that they've lost 8 of 12 in conference.
GroverBall
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Posted: 3/11/2015 10:33 PM
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Eastern over BGSU, despite BG out shooting EMU 53% to 39%. Turnovers killed the Falcons and somehow they held Holmes to 5 boards and held the overall rebounding advantage. I thought BG would be playing this weekend.
Last Edited: 3/11/2015 10:35:51 PM by GroverBall
GroverBall
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Posted: 3/11/2015 11:14 PM
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Zippies over Broncos. Man, I really dislike the damn zippies. Of course D Brown goes 1 for 10, team shoots 26%, including 14% from three, and they have 1 (one) assist. Total. Whole team. Boy, we sure could have used some of that.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 3/11/2015 11:43 PM
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Buffalo and Bowling Green are the only two teams that have never won a MAC tournament championship so I always enjoy when they get knocked out because I am petty and small.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/12/2015 8:38 AM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I agree COuntry. That is why I talked about non con sos. Even with our schedule Fuss does a pretty good job finding teams like Mercer and similar that are gonna potentially be a tourney team.

OTOH you could always force those teams out of the friendly confines for 3 or 4 games a year or .....go to 128 on the first day and include regular season champs in addition to tourney champs. That way you get the most consistent winners and the hot team from the non power conferences.

I'm all for adding one extra day, and even giving seeds 1-4 byes, and adding the conference outright winners. It could be accomplished pretty easily too. I like the other solution better, however, because I'd just like to see some more of what happened at Robert Morris a couple years ago during the regular season. So many hoops fans would like to see those kinds of games too.
100%Cat
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Posted: 3/12/2015 8:51 AM
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I'm sorry, I don't care what the non conference schedule looks like. Murray was NATIONALLY RANKED in the top 25 and 16-0 in their league...loses on a freak step back 3 in the final seconds, and all of a sudden now they likely won't get an invite. Pardon me for thinking that's some Grade A bull____. If you're going to give them the recognition for their W-L record by nationally ranking them, don't turn around and give me the "they didn't play nobody" line as a reason for keeping them out. To me, this is like rewarding an employee with a bonus for never having a sick day, then firing him when he gets the flu and misses a day for the first time in years. If they were one of the top 25 teams in the country, as they were ranked, before that fadeaway three, why are they all of a sudden not deserving of a spot in a 68-team field?

And they haven't even been snubbed yet!
OUVan
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Posted: 3/12/2015 10:44 AM
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I've decided that I hate this new MAC tourney format for a couple of reasons.

1.) The double and triple byes are too much. I understand why they do it but it seems like too big of a reward for the top 4 particularly if the #5 seed is tied with one or more of the top 4. The 5th seed should not have to win 2 more games than the 4 seed. What I would do is give the #1 seed a double bye and the #2 seed a single bye. That seems like enough reward to me.

2.) I miss the 4 games in one day marathons. This is the biggest reason. 2 games a day just doesn't seem like enough.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/12/2015 11:58 AM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I've decided that I hate this new MAC tourney format for a couple of reasons.

1.) The double and triple byes are too much. I understand why they do it but it seems like too big of a reward for the top 4 particularly if the #5 seed is tied with one or more of the top 4. The 5th seed should not have to win 2 more games than the 4 seed. What I would do is give the #1 seed a double bye and the #2 seed a single bye. That seems like enough reward to me.

2.) I miss the 4 games in one day marathons. This is the biggest reason. 2 games a day just doesn't seem like enough.

I don't like that seeds 3 & 4 get such a jump on seeds 5 & 6. I posted before, but this is my idea: https://instagram.com/p/zVLHFzovlI . I like that #1 and #2 get the advantage, because I feel like it's appropriate to reward for winning in season.

I also wouldn't be opposed to just eliminating 11 & 12 from the tournament altogether.
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