You have my permission. Last night was pretty bad.

Do you see anyone who even vaguely resembles Jimmy Hall on this roster? C'mon man. This season is not going to end well.

Sagarin ranks Notra Dame 29, Maryland 30 and Clemson 32. If we get invited to a tournament during the early season we need to beat top 50 teams which we didn’t do and Ball St did.

Bingo^^^^^. Right on Recovering Journalist. I see a ton of people making excuses for Saul. Bottom line...how much talent do we truly have on this roster when you truly break it down? We don't matchup with Buffalo at all.

Somebody asked what is #SaulBall?

In the game against CMU, whatever #SaulBall is meant to be can't beat zone-which is insane when you consider Ohio has solid long range shooters in Block, Dartis, Laster and hell...I'll even throw in Gollon there. Plus, guys like Laster and Kirk who can create.

Bottom line....Saul has 15 months to prove that #SaulBall works in Athens. Going to be difficult for Schaus to renew a coach after 5 years of 0 NCAA Tournament appearances.

So the idea of a message board is to only communicate positive at all times and never, ever question anything? OK! What a thrill that would be. And the argument that we should expect last night's result because we historically don't play well at CMU is flawed. What does Lewis Geter losing in Mount Pleasant have anything to do with this year's team getting blasted by a team that played a JV schedule in December?

I like when Ohio wins...I like when Ohio plays in the NCAA Tournament. If that makes me a bad fan, so be it.

This is a really interesting thread. Great insights from both the supporters and haters (excepting the rancor in the previous couple of posts).

I was as down as anybody about last night and agree the team is looking lost. I also think it's easy for the narrative to change with one good break or one bad break. And a league championship -- or the lack thereof.

Last year, if Tony doesn't get hurt, I think that team wins the league... and really, it was just one play away from the MAC finals (and maybe then a league title). Then Saul would look like a great coach.

This year, Jaaron leaves and Carter goes down. If those guys were both in action, this would be hands-down the team to beat.

I think Saul's recruiting has been pretty solid and the teams generally play hard (the "Bean year" aside). But this team is snakebit and already looks like it's running on fumes. And yes, Dartis and Block look like they might be regressing.

It really does come down to Year 5, when (hopefully) there's once again a stocked roster with lots of experience. That said, I'm hoping this team develops and can still contend -- maybe as a dark horse 4 or 5 seed in the tourney.

Go Cats.

It is, yes. I just don't think a few have much in the way of rational perspective when it comes to realistic expectations of what this program has been, is right now due to the injury plague, and what it realistically can/should be going forward. For example, RecovJourno offers criticism that the ROI on basketball spending should mean getting to more MAC title games and an NCAA Tournament once every 5 years. Historical numbers say that's pretty close to where this program should be. To expect significantly more than that simply isn't real. And to complain about it after a single bad loss accomplishes nothing.

It is fair to say I'm probably too defensive of Saul & the team, and the situation they're put in because of injuries. The fact that they had, in two consecutive years, their best big man injured for half or more of the season. That same big man happens to also be the best player on the squad in those seasons. Add in the late defection of the guy who was given the keys to the car in the summer after most recruiting is done, and it's not realistic, right now, this year, to expect 25 wins and a MAC championship and an NCAA Tournament. To me, calling for a coaches job in that scenario is ludicrous, especially knee jerk reacting to one bad loss. At the moment, this season, to me, should be evaluated on how they respond to bad games (hopefully there aren't many more), how the staff and team adjust and play hard. I saw a hell of a lot of fight in Charleston, and I've seen it in other games when they've been under manned.

And the part above I mentioned, about several former frequently active users being less active because of what they believe the primary focus of the board has become, is a fact. It's a real conversation I've had with people either in person, or via social media. It's fair to say that a portion (I hope small ones) of my reactions to the negative posts with negative responses don't aid in making this a better space. I considered that last night after reading lovebobcat's post using the word "rancor" that I presumed was directed at least partly towards my post. Seems I can do better.

Others might consider how much real discussion about the game on the court, or the teams on the field that they add that is useful as well. Constructive criticism is fine. Consistently complaining about the people who make the programs run isn't good for anyone. Maybe I drink too much green koolaid and get defensive of OUr school and teams. Either way - your point is made, and fair.

People tend to see things through their own lens, but I don't think a broad discussion of where this program sits and where it seems to be going is unwarranted at this point - the fourth season with all of his own recruits. It goes far beyond one bad performance. Four disappointing seasons are more than bad luck or injuries. I'd argue that it highlights some misjudgment, poor recruiting, lack of player development and a system that's not working.

I'm not calling for Saul's head. I was very happy with his hiring and I've liked him more as a person the more I've seen of him and his family. He at least deserves to serve out his contract, and I think he and his family are a great fit for the school and community. That said, he's ultimately judged on the court, and his results at this time do not warrant an extension. The trajectory has to change significantly next year because right now the school is paying a lot of money for mediocrity.

I usually lead the charge for griping. Shocked I'm not leading it right now but......

With this program, the loss of Jaaron Simmons changed plans in a hurry for Ohio. Add this in with losing Campbell and having scholarship scrambles does no good. Yes, finding Mickle has been a good spot for us along with getting Kirk. But that's not how you build a program. That said, next year will be Saul's team in the purest form as all the players are his and classes recruiting wise will be more balanced. As we all know, getting Laster here in year 0 was a last minute scramble along with getting Ryan Taylor. Still wished we had him but the culture that 1st year was no conducive to good basketball team building. Since he's had time to establish himself, we have seen what his classes can bear. So with that, we can finally evaluate what the program is and is going to be under Saul next season.

The injury bug is a serious concern and definitely has to be in what we're recruiting along with training. These are serious concerns moving forward, especially because 13 scholarships does not allow for errors at the mid-major level. Seems to be a similar problem with the football program but I'm not going to go there.....

In looking at our recruiting, I keep saying it; we are doing the right things in Ohio. The kids we get are steals and at some point will pay off. Personally not a fan of Taylor as much, but again, that was from a very respected City League school in Columbus and hope that a pipeline there develops. Losing Culver as well did us no favors but I think that was more fit with him than with us. Within our borders, we need to continue pulling kids in state and need to make sure we are spanning across. The good news here is that our staff is always at Flyin' to the Hoop and out at games. Trust me, they usually ask me about a kid or two and what I've seen out of them (usually confirms what they're thinking on a few). Out of state, we're doing solid work but the problem is we have missed on a few kids that are projects. Unfortunately, projects are huge gambles and if they don't develop, those are scholarships that are going to waste. Having one or two of these is fine, but having 3 is a number that approaches dangerous levels to continuing a program. The other thing I will say here is the run on Wisconsin kids. Every mid major seems to be making runs on Wisconsin and not sure why exactly, but if we're going to compete up there recruiting wise, we better be winning round 1 of the recruiting battles and not round 2 or round 3.

That said, let's consider that we don't have a basketball only facility here at Ohio. It's not like our kids have a place to go work on their games in off time. I can still remember from my time there that practices would be held over at Ping and I'd sit there and go, "This program got to the Sweet 16?" I hate to say this without sounding like a prick, but we are behind the MAC in terms of facilities. Yes, the Convo is massive, but that has done more damage than good, especially in maintaining it and putting chandeliers in a haunted house essentially. If we had a practice gym for the men's and women's programs, it would go a long way towards making the program better. As some of you may or may not know, the dance team also gets dibs on the facility, along with wrestling and volleyball and in other instances soccer as well. Then, come MAC Tournament week, we have the Districts and Regionals in there (which by the way, I am a huge fan of this, no other corner in the state has the fun that OU does and the following at the district level) to where our players get kicked out. So you ask yourself, where does the program get chances to improve? Again, if I were AD, this would be project #1, #2, and #3 no questions asked given our logistical concerns nightmare we face at the Convo.

Now, that we've covered what has been said in this thread, Saul needs to win this or next year. He's going to be feeling the heat, especially considering that he is the highest paid coach in the MAC without a championship appearance yet going into Year 4. He is a great charismatic coach and definitely someone I would want to have firing up a fanbase. But at some point though W's have to come through for this team and I hate to say it, the attendance numbers are currently showing. In a lot of athletic department's cases, bean counters can usually pull the trigger, especially if sales and attendance are down (see Thad Matta for this one).

My prediction though, is that unless things change medically and training wise, it will continue to undermine what this program should be in the eyes of Saul Phillips and could be a very entertaining 15 months for Ohio Basketball for the wrong reasons, especially given that no contract extension has been made.

Of course, one run in Cleveland changes this, but until then.....

I guess this is where I disagree. Getting to the last two MAC semi's, and coming within a whisker of the MAC title game last year are not what I would describe as disappointing or mediocre. This year has been, but I defy anyone to find another mid-major team that has only had 4 guys suit up for every single game that had a good year. That's a big, big issue.

I don't think recruiting has been poor, or not any more so than the previous two regimes. There is one clear strikeout to this point (Dozier), and one other so-so (Taylor, though he's had flashes too). There are two frosh we don't know about at this point because of injury. I'd imagine in 6 weeks, we'll know a lot more about them. Every other scholarship player is contributing to the team reasonably consistently. Dartis, Carter, and Kirk have been starting caliber players from their first minute of practice. Also, assume the health of Campbell and Carter, and Simmons staying for this year, and I have sincere doubts we're even having this conversation.

Somewhere in the picture as well should be the "fit" in the community, and the fact that his staff is recruiting solid citizens. Like you said, each individual's lens is different, but for me, that's something I like as a Alumnus of Ohio.

All that said, I agree he's judged on wins and the ROI because of the dollars involved. My largest criticism has been on the defensive end, and at least statistically, they seem to be getting better year over year. I'm not a modern metrics guy though, so maybe someone could share that side of it.

I posted in another thread that Ohio is 10th in the nation in fewest fouls. You can take that several ways.

-good man to man defense where they play with their feet and not with their hands.

-a conscious effort to not foul, because of the lack of depth in the front court due to injuries.

-other teams aren't attacking the rim as much...which I don't think we have seen.

-or we just aren't as tough and aggressive as we need to be.

I think you have to look at this forum open-minded. Yes ... it is a place to come celebrate Bobcat achievements ... reminisce about our times in Athens ... etc. For some that is what this is for, and for a lot that is their primary reason for coming on this forum. I've very much enjoyed a lot of the banter on here ... and while I might not have met a lot of these folks face-to-face, I wouldn't be opposed to having a beer with some and chatting Bobcat.

But you also have to be open to the idea that some people want to come on here and vent their frustrations with basketball/Saul or football/Frank. And that's okay too. Some choose to do it in a more tasteful manner ... I'll give you that.

But, like most things in life, you can't always have it your way all the time. If you want that, go to Burger King.

I accept that fact that some folks on here will never acknowledge any of the shortcomings of either the football or basketball programs .... so be it.

But I enjoy the conversation ... so I continue to frequent the site.

It sucks that people take the "why bother" approach ... but that's their decision and I understand that time is precious ... but if they're leaving because people aren't discussing what they want to discuss and how they want to discuss it ... that's a whole other issue.

Agreed.