General Ohio University Discussion/Alumni Events Topic
Topic: Turner Gill
Page: 2 of 3
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OhioCatFan
12/27/2011 5:18 PM
I think L.C. and PF have it basically right in this thread.  It seems clear that some of you believe more in freedom from religion than freedom of religion.  The hatred of anything religious, particularly Christian, seems almost palatable at times.  Can't we all just get along? 

Edit: I'm not a fan of JF either.  In fact, I had a rather unpleasant experience once with Liberty University.  However, I don't hate either the university or its founder.
Last Edited: 12/27/2011 5:26:42 PM by OhioCatFan
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PutnamField
12/27/2011 6:17 PM
Brian Smith wrote:expand_more
They have the right to their beliefs, but they are IN NO WAY constitutionally protected from my criticism of their institution. Or Tim's. Or Bobcat Love's.

I am required to acknowledge other's beliefs. NOT respect them.[/QUOTE]

Of course you can criticize whomever you want. Not sure why you're inserting freedom of speech issues into this aspect of the dialogue.

Potter Stewart once opined that, "Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do."

[QUOTE=OUVan]I must have missed where anyone did that in this thread. 

Nobody was bashing religion, at least not until two people became completely defensive of a religious figure being bashed claiming that their faith was being attacked.  For all the cries of freedom of this and that you seem extremely intolerant of differing points of view.

 

Your first point is very reasonable. Bobcat Love did not directly criticize religion. You're right to point that out. 

However, in the context of some of his other contributions to the board and the current environment regarding athletics and religion, it didn't seem like too much of a stretch to relate his comments to this debate, which is what I did.

In this recent debate, the essential difference between outspoken non-believers and outspoken believers is that many of the non-believers appear to think that quelling, curtailing or sequestering the believers' free expression is warranted.

So, maybe Bobcat Love doesn't think that. I disagree with people who do.

By the way, it's interesting how you assume that I'm Christian. As if a non-believer could never defend the rights of a believer.

Drew Brees seems to do a nice job of talking openly about his faith without necessarily making it a signature of his persona.



  
 

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L.C.
12/27/2011 6:50 PM
Interesting point, Putnam, You have never made any statement that causes me to know what your beliefs are. You could be anything, for all I know. I do know that you respect free speech, however. That much is clear. I also made the same inference for the same reason. Had BL limited his criticism to the founder without extending it more broadly, I wouldn't have felt the same way.
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Bobcat Grad 86
12/27/2011 8:40 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
You have to have your eyes closed if you don't see the religious bashing going on everywhere. Putnam bought up Tebow bashing as an example. It is clear that he is correct about Tebow bashing; look at this story from today regarding Bill Maher bashing Tim Tebow

Getting back to the thread, BL claimed Liberty was a crap school. On what basis? It has nice facilities. It has high admission standards. Its graduates do well. The remainder of his post makes it quite clear the reason he labels it that way. I personally never cared for Falwell, but I happen to think Liberty is a fine school, and I am glad it exists. When you extend beyond criticism of Falwell personally to criticism of a school itself simply because it it religious, I don't think that is appropriate.


+1
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JSF
12/27/2011 8:53 PM
Religious types tend to feel persecuted and non-religious types tend to feel the religious types are trying to push their beliefs on them. Neither side does a good job recognizing their own bias and fault.
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MedinaCat
12/27/2011 9:25 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Religious types tend to feel persecuted and non-religious types tend to feel the religious types are trying to push their beliefs on them. Neither side does a good job recognizing their own bias and fault.


The first time I think I have ever "+1" Bobcat Dragon
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Tim Burke
12/28/2011 1:39 AM
It's the same as recognizing that SEC schools didn't allow black folks to attend until 130 years after we graduated our first African-American alumnus.

That is a flaw that is part of the character of their universities and one they must accept when we remind them of it.
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Monroe Slavin
12/28/2011 10:40 AM
'Flaws' that have been long corrected don't grate.  It's the ongoing stupidity that raises ire.
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OhioCatFan
12/28/2011 11:44 AM
Tim Burke wrote:expand_more
It's the same as recognizing that SEC schools didn't allow black folks to attend until 130 years after we graduated our first African-American alumnus.

That is a flaw that is part of the character of their universities and one they must accept when we remind them of it.


Can't disagree with that.  Some of the neo-Confederates need to be reminded of this on a regular basis because they have a real selective memory of their "Confederate Heritage." 
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OhioStunter
12/28/2011 1:33 PM
Wow. I went from reading a thread about the difference between scalloped and au gratin potatoes to this thread about religion, racism and the Confederacy.

I love BobcatAttack.com.

P.S. Looking forward to the thread on Kim Jung Un.
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L.C.
12/28/2011 3:34 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
P.S. Looking forward to the thread on Kim Jung Un.
You could probably hijack this thread and turn it into a discussion of Korea. Any thoughts on the subject?
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Ohio69
12/28/2011 3:56 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
non-religious types tend to feel the religious types are trying to push their beliefs on them.


Well, that's just because they are.... 
Last Edited: 12/28/2011 3:56:39 PM by Ohio69
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Jeff McKinney
12/28/2011 4:31 PM
Well, we had the train fired up for a one way run to Krasnovarsk, but you folks have done such a good job of policing yourselves and keeping things in order that the trip has been temporarily cancelled. 

 

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L.C.
12/28/2011 4:37 PM
It's kind of chilly this time of year in Krasnovarsk, so that's probably a good thing. At least you weren't going to send it to Kolyma.
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Robert Fox
12/28/2011 4:53 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
It's the same as recognizing that SEC schools didn't allow black folks to attend until 130 years after we graduated our first African-American alumnus.

That is a flaw that is part of the character of their universities and one they must accept when we remind them of it.


Can't disagree with that.  Some of the neo-Confederates need to be reminded of this on a regular basis because they have a real selective memory of their "Confederate Heritage." 


Puke.
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Bobcat Love
12/28/2011 4:55 PM
Am I wrong to say that one of the key tenets of Christianity and Islam is Missionary responsibility? You are told to solicit the religion. You need to convert the non-believers. Am I wrong?

I'd rather choose my own spiritual avenue then be threatened with damnation, burning, etc or rewarded with sugarplums, virgins, booberries, frankenberries, twigandberries, or anything else. Tim Tebow looks cheap and petty to me when he prays about every little thing in a football game. He looks even worse when he falls on his face.

The sad fact is that I know as much about the afterlife as Ruck, OCF, L.C., Pope Benedict, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggert, Ayatollah Khomeni, Mullah McKinney, Marty Luther, Rabbi Maimonides, Brigham Young, or any other religious figure you want to throw out. And they know as much as I do. Which is NOTHING. So just do your best while you're here and worry about what happens next when your gone. It'll all work itself out.

I'm done.
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L.C.
12/28/2011 5:52 PM
Bobcat Love wrote:expand_more
Am I wrong to say that one of the key tenets of Christianity and Islam is Missionary responsibility? You are told to solicit the religion. You need to convert the non-believers. Am I wrong? ...

Yes, that is not correct. In Christianity there is indeed a missionary responsibility, but that is not a need to "convert the non-believers". It is not possible to convert someone to Christianity any more than you can convert lead to gold. All Christians can do is to make sure people are aware of our views. Those that choose to can accept it, while those that do not accept it are free to reject it, as you have done. You are aware of the choice, and you have made your choice. The same holds true in reverse. I am aware of your views, and I have made my choice. I respect your right to make the choice you have made, and I only wish the same in return.

With respect to Islam, their missionary orders are somewhat different. It is good news for both of us that most modern Islam sects no longer adhere to the original perspective that non-believers were to either convert, or die.

The bottom line is that I think that the more we understand about each others views, the less likely we are to have hostile confrontations over religions. I have friends that are from many different religions, and we always have respectful discussions when the subject comes up.

With regards to Tebow, I wouldn't do the things that he does, but I don't begrudge him the right to follow his own religious views the way he sees fit to do so. I do admit that I suspect that if he were a Moslem, and instead was visibly praying towards Mecca, people like Bill Maher wouldn't say a word.
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Monroe Slavin
12/28/2011 9:54 PM
I still would like to see us line up in a two-back set occasionally.
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cc-cat
12/29/2011 12:32 PM
While Mr. Love's statement may be seen as over the top (personally agree with the tone on this one, but whatever), more interesting will be Burke's comment.  Administration may be the least of his hurdles.  Large boosters are probably on board because he can help elevate them.  General fans and students/parents may be an issue.  Being in the Bible Belt I have direct contact with a number of folks with connections to Liberty,  My direct neighbor no problem with the interracial marriage.  Others I know would be quite disturbed based on comments they have made previously.  We'll see.  At $500,000 per year he at least has that going for him. 
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JSF
12/29/2011 12:39 PM
Bobcat Love wrote:expand_more
Am I wrong to say that one of the key tenets of Christianity and Islam is Missionary responsibility? You are told to solicit the religion. You need to convert the non-believers. Am I wrong?[/quote]

Yes and no. Christians are charged with spreading the Good News, but this can take many different forms. It doesn't have to be, "Go and talk to everyone you meet." In fact, it shouldn't be that.

I'd rather choose my own spiritual avenue then be threatened with damnation, burning, etc or rewarded with sugarplums, virgins, booberries, frankenberries, twigandberries, or anything else.


For Heaven, turn to page 48. For Hell, turn to page 16. But seriously, I totally get this. And it really, really upsets me when people try to use Hell to scare people into things. That completely misses the point.

[quote=Bobcat Love]Tim Tebow looks cheap and petty to me when he prays about every little thing in a football game. He looks even worse when he falls on his face.


I can understand that. But Jesus did say to pray for all things... though Tebow seems to take that a little more literally. I tend not to have a running pray monologue.
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cc-cat
12/29/2011 1:20 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Tim Tebow looks cheap and petty to me when he prays about every little thing in a football game. He looks even worse when he falls on his face.


I can understand that. But Jesus did say to pray for all things... though Tebow seems to take that a little more literally. I tend not to have a running pray monologue.


the SNL skit on Tebow is spot on to this point.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/tebow/1374394
Last Edited: 12/29/2011 1:24:03 PM by cc-cat
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KC Bobcat
12/29/2011 3:35 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
With regards to Tebow, I wouldn't do the things that he does, but I don't begrudge him the right to follow his own religious views the way he sees fit to do so. I do admit that I suspect that if he were a Moslem, and instead was visibly praying towards Mecca, people like Bill Maher wouldn't say a word.


Probably not, but I have a feeling Bill O'Rielly, Rush Limaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck etc. would have something to say.
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L.C.
12/29/2011 3:57 PM
You might be right, but it is sad if you are.
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Ohio69
12/29/2011 4:14 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Tim Tebow looks cheap and petty to me when he prays about every little thing in a football game. He looks even worse when he falls on his face.


I can understand that. But Jesus did say to pray for all things... though Tebow seems to take that a little more literally. I tend not to have a running pray monologue.


Well, somewhere in my King James bible -- right before the Lord's prayer in Mathew if I'm remembering correctly - it directs me to pray in private.  And, tells me that those who pray in public for everyone to see already have their reward - the recognition from those seeing them pray.  So, I always wonder about those who are publicly praying and professing their faith at every turn like Tebow seems to be.  To each his own I guess.

Anyway, this site sure ends up with some interesting discussions.
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OhioCatFan
12/30/2011 1:21 AM
KC Bobcat wrote:expand_more
With regards to Tebow, I wouldn't do the things that he does, but I don't begrudge him the right to follow his own religious views the way he sees fit to do so. I do admit that I suspect that if he were a Moslem, and instead was visibly praying towards Mecca, people like Bill Maher wouldn't say a word.


Probably not, but I have a feeling Bill O'Rielly, Rush Limaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck etc. would have something to say.


It's interesting the way you lump those four together.  They are not likely to view such a thing in the same way.  Conservatives are not totally monolithic -- liberals aren't either.  If I had to guess, I would say that Bill would probably point it out as good thing and an example of American diversity.  Rush might make some joke about it and say, sarcastically, that Muslims were taking over the NFL.  Sean would probably not make fun of it either, but he might use an NFL praying Muslim as a springboard to attack President Obama in some strange way.  Glenn would probably best fit your stereotype and might do "a reverse Maher" of some sort.  Greta, who you didn't mention, would probably have the player on her show for an in-depth interview on religion and sports.  It would probably be sandwiched in between boring interviews with Donald Trump, whom she seems to be in love with.
Last Edited: 12/30/2011 1:23:22 AM by OhioCatFan
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