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Topic: Sook
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L.C.
10/20/2017 2:12 PM
Football is, or was, probably easier than most sports, since most games are, or at least, were, on weekends, rather than weekdays. Compare that to a player who has an away game on a class day. What if there is a quiz that day? Even if there wasn't, what did he/she miss? I'm sure an industrious student could manage to reschedule everything, and get by on his/her own, but I'm sure some who tried would fall by the way side.

Enough people felt that this was needed, and donated their own money to get it built, so hopefully a structure will be adopted that enables it to fulfill its mission.
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Alan Swank
10/20/2017 2:35 PM
Unfortunately and as often happens on here, the message is getting confused with one of the messengers. Would be interesting to see what the comments would be if a professor like the late Frank Henderson had co-written this.
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L.C.
10/20/2017 4:24 PM
Alan, since you seem to support Ridpath and Lybarger's position, I'll ask you these questions:
1. What problems do you see with the current system?
a. Isn't the APR high, and rising for most if not all sports?
b. Have their been any reported incidents involving academics of athletes?
2. How do you think their proposal will work better?
3. How do you think they will address the potential problems of the new system?
a. For example, will they have specially trained specialists who do nothing other that work with athletes? If yes, how will they differ from the specially trained specialists doing the job now? If no, how well do you think they can do the job without special training?
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Alan Swank
10/20/2017 4:40 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Alan, since you seem to support Ridpath and Lybarger's position, I'll ask you these questions:
1. What problems do you see with the current system?
a. Isn't the APR high, and rising for most if not all sports?
b. Have their been any reported incidents involving academics of athletes?
2. How do you think their proposal will work better?
3. How do you think they will address the potential problems of the new system?
a. For example, will they have specially trained specialists who do nothing other that work with athletes? If yes, how will they differ from the specially trained specialists doing the job now? If no, how well do you think they can do the job without special training?
Real simple answer, just roll the current personnel involved and the associated costs in this endeavor into the appropriate academic unit that reports to a dean versus an athletic administrator.
Last Edited: 10/20/2017 4:41:27 PM by Alan Swank
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Buckeye to Bobcat
10/20/2017 5:02 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Alan, since you seem to support Ridpath and Lybarger's position, I'll ask you these questions:
1. What problems do you see with the current system?
a. Isn't the APR high, and rising for most if not all sports?
b. Have their been any reported incidents involving academics of athletes?
2. How do you think their proposal will work better?
3. How do you think they will address the potential problems of the new system?
a. For example, will they have specially trained specialists who do nothing other that work with athletes? If yes, how will they differ from the specially trained specialists doing the job now? If no, how well do you think they can do the job without special training?
Real simple answer, just roll the current personnel involved and the associated costs in this endeavor into the appropriate academic unit that reports to a dean versus an athletic administrator.
Ok.....and what happens when the university hires people athletics-leaning into those positions? Is this not how the UNC Scandal started? If you really think consolidating them into academics is going to solve the problem you're nuts.

There is no clean answer to this other than hiring good and honest people into the slots at the university level. And there are a lot of those folks in athletic depts. all over the country. That said, as long as there is a scoreboard, anything can and will still happen.
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Alan Swank
10/20/2017 5:30 PM
Buckeye to Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Alan, since you seem to support Ridpath and Lybarger's position, I'll ask you these questions:
1. What problems do you see with the current system?
a. Isn't the APR high, and rising for most if not all sports?
b. Have their been any reported incidents involving academics of athletes?
2. How do you think their proposal will work better?
3. How do you think they will address the potential problems of the new system?
a. For example, will they have specially trained specialists who do nothing other that work with athletes? If yes, how will they differ from the specially trained specialists doing the job now? If no, how well do you think they can do the job without special training?
Real simple answer, just roll the current personnel involved and the associated costs in this endeavor into the appropriate academic unit that reports to a dean versus an athletic administrator.
Ok.....and what happens when the university hires people athletics-leaning into those positions? Is this not how the UNC Scandal started? If you really think consolidating them into academics is going to solve the problem you're nuts.

There is no clean answer to this other than hiring good and honest people into the slots at the university level. And there are a lot of those folks in athletic depts. all over the country. That said, as long as there is a scoreboard, anything can and will still happen.
There isn't a problem to solve. However, rolling all academic programs into an academic setting sends a powerful message. Also, why do people keep painting a black and white picture - pro-atheletics and anti-athletics? I'm pro-athletics and know full well the benefits derived from them. That said, I'm not blindly loyal to the all mighty scoreboard.
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L.C.
10/20/2017 5:39 PM
Actually, I think there is a clear answer, and that is that to avoid a UNC type situation, you must keep things separate. That way the Academic side can focus on setting and maintaining high standards, and the athletic side can focus on helping the athletes to meet those high standards. With the two blended into one, the temptation will be there to adjust the standards, which is precisely what happened at UNC. Separation means multiple people have to conspire to break the rules, rather than a single person.

So, based on Alan's answer, there is no problem that needs fixing. That's consistent with the fact that, in raising money for the Sook, the Athletic Department must have laid out convincing information that the existing program is working, but needs more space to be even more effective.

Alan, I'm not approaching this from a pro athletic department or pro academic side view. Rather, I'm asking, which approach will help assure that the student athletes actually leave with an education, and which will be less likely to lead to problems.
Last Edited: 10/20/2017 5:43:00 PM by L.C.
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Alan Swank
10/20/2017 5:50 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Actually, I think there is a clear answer, and that is that to avoid a UNC type situation, you must keep things separate. That way the Academic side can focus on setting and maintaining high standards, and the athletic side can focus on helping the athletes to meet those high standards. With the two blended into one, the temptation will be there to adjust the standards, which is precisely what happened at UNC. Separation means multiple people have to conspire to break the rules, rather than a single person.

So, based on Alan's answer, there is no problem that needs fixing. That's consistent with the fact that, in raising money for the Sook, the Athletic Department must have laid out convincing information that the existing program is working, but needs more space to be even more effective.

Alan, I'm not approaching this from a pro athletic department or pro academic side view. Rather, I'm asking, which approach will help assure that the student athletes actually leave with an education, and which will be less likely to lead to problems.
Fair question and my answer has nothing to do with OU but colleges in general. APRs indicate those who leave with a diploma. I'd much prefer that they leave with an education and I think that will happen by integrating the center into an academic setting.
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CA Bobcat
10/20/2017 7:36 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Actually, I think there is a clear answer, and that is that to avoid a UNC type situation, you must keep things separate. That way the Academic side can focus on setting and maintaining high standards, and the athletic side can focus on helping the athletes to meet those high standards. With the two blended into one, the temptation will be there to adjust the standards, which is precisely what happened at UNC. Separation means multiple people have to conspire to break the rules, rather than a single person.

So, based on Alan's answer, there is no problem that needs fixing. That's consistent with the fact that, in raising money for the Sook, the Athletic Department must have laid out convincing information that the existing program is working, but needs more space to be even more effective.

Alan, I'm not approaching this from a pro athletic department or pro academic side view. Rather, I'm asking, which approach will help assure that the student athletes actually leave with an education, and which will be less likely to lead to problems.
Fair question and my answer has nothing to do with OU but colleges in general. APRs indicate those who leave with a diploma. I'd much prefer that they leave with an education and I think that will happen by integrating the center into an academic setting.
It's already integrated into an "academic setting". It's called Ohio University.

Again, it's fine to debate these things but we all know what this is about and it has nothing to do with student-athlete development support and everything to do with jealousy, envy and control (from one jaded side of the University).
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ou79
10/20/2017 10:16 PM
Well stated CA Bobcat! I completely agree.
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BillyTheCat
10/20/2017 11:10 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Football is, or was, probably easier than most sports, since most games are, or at least, were, on weekends, rather than weekdays. Compare that to a player who has an away game on a class day. What if there is a quiz that day? Even if there wasn't, what did he/she miss? I'm sure an industrious student could manage to reschedule everything, and get by on his/her own, but I'm sure some who tried would fall by the way side.

Enough people felt that this was needed, and donated their own money to get it built, so hopefully a structure will be adopted that enables it to fulfill its mission.

Not true, there are many professors who may be great professors, but their miss 1 class policy, miss two class policy, regardless of reason is set in stone. Be that for the single mother/father with a sick toddler, or grandma died, to you got meningitis, there are reasons they sell withdraw insurance, because there are profs who unless you take that 100% attendance serious and as an absolute, you will not pass.

Speaking of that, some of those situations will and can cause ineligibility to great students, simply due to lack of knowledge on the part of the advisor.
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BillyTheCat
10/21/2017 12:02 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Unfortunately and as often happens on here, the message is getting confused with one of the messengers. Would be interesting to see what the comments would be if a professor like the late Frank Henderson had co-written this.
I'd give Frank the same lines, minus the truths that are applicable to Ridpath being of poor character to judge ethics in sports. Anyone tossed from youth softball at the rec level should not be discussing ethics.
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BillyTheCat
10/21/2017 12:05 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Alan, since you seem to support Ridpath and Lybarger's position, I'll ask you these questions:
1. What problems do you see with the current system?
a. Isn't the APR high, and rising for most if not all sports?
b. Have their been any reported incidents involving academics of athletes?
2. How do you think their proposal will work better?
3. How do you think they will address the potential problems of the new system?
a. For example, will they have specially trained specialists who do nothing other that work with athletes? If yes, how will they differ from the specially trained specialists doing the job now? If no, how well do you think they can do the job without special training?
Real simple answer, just roll the current personnel involved and the associated costs in this endeavor into the appropriate academic unit that reports to a dean versus an athletic administrator.
This unit turns over every 12-18 months, you loose control the next hire will be from the humanities department to the great young TA who's promising at their field, but couldn't tell you what the acronym NCAA even stand for, much less understands that a player cannot drop a class. Yet, Joe Student is often encouraged to drop classes to deal with personal issues and or family issues.
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BillyTheCat
10/21/2017 12:11 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Actually, I think there is a clear answer, and that is that to avoid a UNC type situation, you must keep things separate. That way the Academic side can focus on setting and maintaining high standards, and the athletic side can focus on helping the athletes to meet those high standards. With the two blended into one, the temptation will be there to adjust the standards, which is precisely what happened at UNC. Separation means multiple people have to conspire to break the rules, rather than a single person.

So, based on Alan's answer, there is no problem that needs fixing. That's consistent with the fact that, in raising money for the Sook, the Athletic Department must have laid out convincing information that the existing program is working, but needs more space to be even more effective.

Alan, I'm not approaching this from a pro athletic department or pro academic side view. Rather, I'm asking, which approach will help assure that the student athletes actually leave with an education, and which will be less likely to lead to problems.
Exactly, UNC committed NO NCAA violations, those BS on-line classes were signed on to by the academic side. Our highly debated BSS (thread last month) was not created by athletics, but rather the academic side. So why the distrust in the athletic academic advisor? Actually the Athletic academic advisor is more well versed in their job than the University professor who loves teaching their subject, but fails to understand the actual general ed graduation requirements, and has never witnessed an OHIO Athletics event of any type, and has NO clue of the restraints each sport represents to scheduling.
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BillyTheCat
10/21/2017 12:12 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Actually, I think there is a clear answer, and that is that to avoid a UNC type situation, you must keep things separate. That way the Academic side can focus on setting and maintaining high standards, and the athletic side can focus on helping the athletes to meet those high standards. With the two blended into one, the temptation will be there to adjust the standards, which is precisely what happened at UNC. Separation means multiple people have to conspire to break the rules, rather than a single person.

So, based on Alan's answer, there is no problem that needs fixing. That's consistent with the fact that, in raising money for the Sook, the Athletic Department must have laid out convincing information that the existing program is working, but needs more space to be even more effective.

Alan, I'm not approaching this from a pro athletic department or pro academic side view. Rather, I'm asking, which approach will help assure that the student athletes actually leave with an education, and which will be less likely to lead to problems.
Fair question and my answer has nothing to do with OU but colleges in general. APRs indicate those who leave with a diploma. I'd much prefer that they leave with an education and I think that will happen by integrating the center into an academic setting.
And the academic side sets those requirements, not the athletic side.
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1stInConvo
10/21/2017 9:34 AM
I think LC is correct. Again, this is not an issue about the quality of education for athletics, it is a land grab, budget grab by some members of the faculty. Period. They can try to wrap it up by alluding to the UNC mess, which if you read and understand it, is not relevant at all, almost a counter. If this is typical of how this group thinks, then pity the student that wants to read, study, discuss and arrive at a thoughtful decision in their classroom. "Let's just find some quick reference that seems to support our position." I really hate to say this but maybe not fake news, but at least in the same category.

It has been going on since the 70's and probably will never stop. Apologies to OC, but the group think that stinks isn't a new invention for this faculty.
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colobobcat66
10/21/2017 10:16 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Football is, or was, probably easier than most sports, since most games are, or at least, were, on weekends, rather than weekdays. Compare that to a player who has an away game on a class day. What if there is a quiz that day? Even if there wasn't, what did he/she miss? I'm sure an industrious student could manage to reschedule everything, and get by on his/her own, but I'm sure some who tried would fall by the way side.

Enough people felt that this was needed, and donated their own money to get it built, so hopefully a structure will be adopted that enables it to fulfill its mission.

Not true, there are many professors who may be great professors, but their miss 1 class policy, miss two class policy, regardless of reason is set in stone. Be that for the single mother/father with a sick toddler, or grandma died, to you got meningitis, there are reasons they sell withdraw insurance, because there are profs who unless you take that 100% attendance serious and as an absolute, you will not pass.

Speaking of that, some of those situations will and can cause ineligibility to great students, simply due to lack of knowledge on the part of the advisor.

I graduated in 1966, obviously a long time ago and there were a few professors like you talk about here and there were some who didn't care if you ever attended their class and based your grade only on test scores. I have a hard time believing that there are still professors who would fail you based on class attendance. It's pretty ironic that such professors exist in the age of "online" learning. But to each their own.
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giacomo
10/21/2017 11:43 AM
During the winter quarter when we had Wednesday away games I didn't take classes I knew would be a big challenge. I left those for fall and spring. Plus, I spoke to each professor and explained my situation and asked for their guidance to work around the travel. I never had any issues with that approach.
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Alan Swank
10/21/2017 12:49 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
During the winter quarter when we had Wednesday away games I didn't take classes I knew would be a big challenge. I left those for fall and spring. Plus, I spoke to each professor and explained my situation and asked for their guidance to work around the travel. I never had any issues with that approach.
Which begs the question - so what has changed? Is this center really necessary for academic reasons or to be competitive in recruiting?
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rpbobcat
10/21/2017 4:00 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
During the winter quarter when we had Wednesday away games I didn't take classes I knew would be a big challenge. I left those for fall and spring. Plus, I spoke to each professor and explained my situation and asked for their guidance to work around the travel. I never had any issues with that approach.
Which begs the question - so what has changed? Is this center really necessary for academic reasons or to be competitive in recruiting?
As I've said,when I competed,you were on your own.

I would have loved a facility like this if,for nothing else,a place to study in peace.

I think the usefulness of of an Academic Center depends on the individual student athlete.

From comments I've read,the current facility is well used,but undersized.
Sook will address that.

As for Sook also being a recruiting tool,so what.
It was paid for with 100% outside donations.
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Panda
10/21/2017 11:14 PM
Any change and the financial support disappears. My money will be first snd I know that there are slready 10 gifts that will follow. That will be at least 1 mil.
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L.C.
10/22/2017 12:19 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
There isn't a problem to solve. However, rolling all academic programs into an academic setting sends a powerful message.... [/QUOTE]
I do agree that the structure sends a powerful message. The current structure sends a powerful message that Ohio is committed to making sure that athletes succeed in the classroom as well as on the field, and that the athletic department stands with them on their educational mission, and will help guide them through the process. Change the structure and it sends a very different powerful message. To me, the new message would be that, once enrolled, while Ohio may have fine facilities, the athletic department would need to abandon student athletes, and could be of no further assistance in getting them an education. The student athletes would need to stand alone, against the academic forces of the University, with no assistance. If that's the message, the Sook would become a massive negative, rather than a positive.

[QUOTE=Alan Swank] Fair question and my answer has nothing to do with OU but colleges in general. APRs indicate those who leave with a diploma. I'd much prefer that they leave with an education and I think that will happen by integrating the center into an academic setting.

This is a very peculiar answer. If a University is giving diplomas to people who are not qualified, that speaks to a problem on the academic side, either in terms of improper requirements, or in terms of measuring progress. What your answer is saying, at least to me, is that while the Academic side always has complete control over requirements to earn a diploma, and over measuring who is qualified to receive one, they aren't succeeding, even with complete control, so to remedy their failings we need to give them even more money and power.

Hopefully no one at Ohio is being awarded a diploma who isn't qualified to receive it, but if that is going on, it would seem that the Academic side should engage in self-evaluation, and modify things like the diploma requirements or course grading systems to correct the situation.

There is only one way, that I can think of that giving academics control over tutoring could lead to less "unqualified" people earning diplomas. Suppose that the tutoring done by the athletic department is so good that unqualified people are passing courses, and somehow managing to graduate. That could be "fixed" by giving the the students worse tutoring, and thus helping these "unqualified" students to fail. Voila - less "unqualified" people graduate. Let's hope that isn't what you are implying because every student should get the best possible chance of succeeding.
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The Optimist
10/22/2017 1:34 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...
From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves.

So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ?

They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal.
Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise.

It's troubling that you mention MLK, one of the leaders of the civil rights movement, in a discussion about Faculty Senate when the Chairman of the Faculty Senate is named in a Federal civil rights lawsuit.
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Sam bobcat
10/22/2017 9:53 AM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...
From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves.

So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ?

They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal.
Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise.

It's troubling that you mention MLK, one of the leaders of the civil rights movement, in a discussion about Faculty Senate when the Chairman of the Faculty Senate is named in a Federal civil rights lawsuit.
Thank you! I couldn't believe no one pointed this out. A truly laughable comparison.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
10/22/2017 10:21 AM
Sam bobcat wrote:expand_more
Pretty good article in the ANews on this. This issue and the "free speech/protest" issue will be two big decisions for the new president. If Faculty Senate and Student Senate weigh in and agree with this proposal, that will be a tough voice to ignore.

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/prof-group-tackles...
From what I've read here,the Student Senate and Faculty Senate have no real power/authority over pretty much anything,except themselves.

So what difference does it make how they feel on any issue ?

They pass a resolution for or against something,big deal.
Neither did MLK but he was a significant voice who wise people listened to. I hope our new president is equally as wise.

It's troubling that you mention MLK, one of the leaders of the civil rights movement, in a discussion about Faculty Senate when the Chairman of the Faculty Senate is named in a Federal civil rights lawsuit.
Thank you! I couldn't believe no one pointed this out. A truly laughable comparison.
Let's not forget that MLK did also cheat on his PhD paper.....just saying if we're gonna try to tie academics into this.
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