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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: WKU / MTSU watch
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CatsUp
11/12/2021 8:34 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
Of course I realize that, but you're missing the point. Even those P5s that don't invest in their programs or try to recruit at the level that other schools have a path to the championship. The G5 does not.

I live football and I love the FBS, but the ultimate goal of any team sport is to competing to be the best. FBS college football is the only sport in America where that isn't a readily available possibility for approximately half the schools.

Moving down to FCS isn't an option either, though we could certainly try and rework the program and build a solid fan base that way. Look no further than Marshall, App State, Georgia Southern and James Madison. All of those programs have won national championships at a lower level and gained an interest in their program before transitioning up. Frankly it's kind of embarrassing how much more some FCS fanbases care about their football program than some G5 fanbases care about theirs.
No. You miss the point. One person’s “path” is another person “failure to recognize reality”. Half of the P5 teams are not, nor will they be anytime soon, good enough. Call it a “path” to the playoffs if it makes you feel better.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/13/2021 12:04 PM
CatsUp wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/13/2021 12:10 PM
CatsUp wrote:expand_more
No. You miss the point. One person’s “path” is another person “failure to recognize reality”. Half of the P5 teams are not, nor will they be anytime soon, good enough. Call it a “path” to the playoffs if it makes you feel better.
I actually think you're entirely missing the point.

What you're stating is that several P5 programs aren't good at football. But despite that, they are eligible for and have a "path" to the playoff. If Kansas goes undefeated and wins the Big 12 Championship, they're in the playoff. It's unlikely to happen because they're a poorly run program. But the path is there.

If OU guess undefeated, we get a consolation prize of a New Year's Bowl game if we're lucky. But we're not in the playoff.

Those are fundamentally different. And the difference,LS, and guarantees for Kansas are becoming more formalized and strict, not less.
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TWT
11/13/2021 2:52 PM
Different perspective on this but I'm the type of person that will only watch the pro sports during the playoffs and only if I'm compelled to the story line of the game. With OU basketball I generally find myself beginning to follow about 3 weeks before the MAC tournament then I tend to want to catch the MAC tournament and NCAAs.

Ohio football each win is important. 2-10 is far better than 1-11 and 4-8 is far better than 2-10, thus is more than just about the conference championship. Could it get to the point in college football where it becomes something you just tune into for the playoffs and forget the regular season? While I might pick a school to follow in the NCAAs when OU is out of it I won't do so in the playoff. The alternate for me is watching the MAC in bowl games. I just find the stacked P5 system off putting, monotonous with arrogant fans. In the NFL you aren't ranked in accordance of last year's draft class and have a seat in the post season for it.

Investment in college starts with the coach. Basketball looks set with Boals right now, in football the metric should be to be in the MAC race the last weekend of the season. Unless Albin has tremendous luck we won't be doing that this year. Football is still where the investment needs to be.
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GoCats105
11/13/2021 6:09 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
No. You miss the point. One person’s “path” is another person “failure to recognize reality”. Half of the P5 teams are not, nor will they be anytime soon, good enough. Call it a “path” to the playoffs if it makes you feel better.
I actually think you're entirely missing the point.

What you're stating is that several P5 programs aren't good at football. But despite that, they are eligible for and have a "path" to the playoff. If Kansas goes undefeated and wins the Big 12 Championship, they're in the playoff. It's unlikely to happen because they're a poorly run program. But the path is there.

If OU guess undefeated, we get a consolation prize of a New Year's Bowl game if we're lucky. But we're not in the playoff.

Those are fundamentally different. And the difference,LS, and guarantees for Kansas are becoming more formalized and strict, not less.
Kansas was literally 11-0 and ranked #2 on the doorstep of the BCS title game in 2007. The same would be true if they were 11-0 in 2021. And it could be argued there are 120 programs better than Kansas right now, including in the G5. Like we both said, they at least can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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mf279801
11/13/2021 6:55 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
The evidence indicates that, by and large, our student body doesn't care about basketball either (a sentiment not share on this board, obviously)

In any case, dropping football to FCS to shower the VAST sums of money that that would free up (I'm being sarcastic) on basketball is a terrible idea. Because I feel like it would be.
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TWT
11/13/2021 7:50 PM
Improving OU sports visibility was the way to go in the 90's for a televised future for more publicity. Interests in sports today is declining and Generation Z is leading that charge.

https://morningconsult.com/2020/09/28/gen-z-poll-sports-f... /

The approach of investing in football and basketball coaches and seeing if they can be successful enough to bring donations in the door seems to be working well enough at OU. ROI doesn't seem to be there to build a new stadium or hire a $3 million a year basketball coach. A better investment might be to keep the cost of attendance down to attend OU.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/14/2021 9:29 AM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
The evidence indicates that, by and large, our student body doesn't care about basketball either (a sentiment not share on this board, obviously)

In any case, dropping football to FCS to shower the VAST sums of money that that would free up (I'm being sarcastic) on basketball is a terrible idea. Because I feel like it would be.
It does seem like student interest in basketball is way lower than it was when I was in Athens. But at least there's an actual history of support for the basketball team; that doesn't exist in football. Basketball at least has a playbook to follow to get there, and doesn't have to contend with an equivalent of Ohio State that OU students follow more closely.
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TWT
11/14/2021 4:07 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
The evidence indicates that, by and large, our student body doesn't care about basketball either (a sentiment not share on this board, obviously)

In any case, dropping football to FCS to shower the VAST sums of money that that would free up (I'm being sarcastic) on basketball is a terrible idea. Because I feel like it would be.
It does seem like student interest in basketball is way lower than it was when I was in Athens. But at least there's an actual history of support for the basketball team; that doesn't exist in football. Basketball at least has a playbook to follow to get there, and doesn't have to contend with an equivalent of Ohio State that OU students follow more closely.
College basketball was a big deal. I can remember reading about the early season games in the newspapers and as soon as November it was on equal footing with football in coverage. The contemporary sports news paper ESPN gears up around big events so important regional college basketball games don't get attention.

OU made a pivot toward sports in the 90's when interest was at its height and it was under invested from the Ping years. Academic reputation was also at its height at the time with athletics as a relative weakness. Solich was hired at the beginning of 2004, only 5 years after Peden had broadcast lighting. The end game was to become one of those programs that was on TV, with sports center highlights which is what happened with mid week MAC football. In the Louisiana game even though Ohio was torched SC ran highlights of our 2 TD catches.

Basketball's development I believe was slowed down by having TOS for too many years. Since then Ohio has 3 tournament runs since 2010 with higher level coaches than a guy who was an assistant at Boston College. There is not the TV path forward since college basketball games generate lower ratings during the regular season. How do you move then Ohio basketball from a regional program to something national? Evan Loyola with the final four is thought of as a really good regional basketball program. While Boal's program is great for the alums it won't change the athletic pecking order. It will always be a regional program in the shadows of the Big Ten and Big East basketball. Gonzaga made it nationally but didn't have to compete against programs in the Big Ten, Big East and now Big 12 in-state. WCC doesn't even have a second program in the state of Washington.

Student attendance in basketball is more a function of date and time. Sibs weekend always has a good crowd. Being the top team in the MAC helps on a couple of weekends in February. If only 5% students are attending home basketball games moving that number to 8% as going from 35% to 45% in football. Even though OSU fandom is a factor the crowds are much stronger in Peden both alum/student.

The invest in basketball thesis would be stronger if Ohio didn't have 10 times the students at football games and the MAC was a 5 bid league on par with the Big East instead of a 1 bid regional league.
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TWT
11/14/2021 4:57 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
The evidence indicates that, by and large, our student body doesn't care about basketball either (a sentiment not share on this board, obviously)

In any case, dropping football to FCS to shower the VAST sums of money that that would free up (I'm being sarcastic) on basketball is a terrible idea. Because I feel like it would be.
It does seem like student interest in basketball is way lower than it was when I was in Athens. But at least there's an actual history of support for the basketball team; that doesn't exist in football. Basketball at least has a playbook to follow to get there, and doesn't have to contend with an equivalent of Ohio State that OU students follow more closely.
We are in a different era from 1992-2008 was the time of automatic 6% tuition increases and ESPN dominance of the cultural landscape. Its an era no different than the Vietnam era at OU that is no longer here.

Universities aren't loading up on sports. What they are focused on is subsidizing students to compete on cost. That is why OSU has done so well, they are far cheaper to attend for middle class students. If OU wants to do something to change its attractiveness adjusting the cost of attendance will do more for attracting students than athletics.

Athletic Departments always have it as a self interest to organize for growth, dangle facility projects to donors, have ADs serve on committees. The total upside era though is over and the mad grab for TV revenue by the biggest programs is a reflection on other revenue sources in decline.

If Ohio basketball attendance is declining and interest in college basketball is declining as a whole what would be the reason for increasing investment which already leads the MAC? Its swimming against the tide of college basketball and athletics as a whole. The Athens community is already irate about what OU spends on athletics.
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Pataskala
11/14/2021 6:24 PM
Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
The Athens community is already irate about what OU spends on athletics.
Would the Athens community be a little less irate if at least one of the two November home football games was back on a Saturday? Midweek MACtion appeals to ADs; the WKU AD mentioned it as a plus for the MAC. But it certainly cuts down the home crowds at the games. I know that folks coming in from out of town would spend thousands, probably tens of thousands, in the Athens area, even on November Saturdays. Dad's Weekend used to be centered around a Saturday football game, but now there's just an exhibition b-ball game. That probably makes a difference in some dads' decision about coming to Athens for the weekend.
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Jeff McKinney
11/14/2021 9:44 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I ask myself this question every day.
Uh...cause sports are fun and stuff.
Of course they are. But they'd be a lot more fun if Ohio actually had a glimmer of hope of even being able to COMPETE for a National Championship. As it stands now, they don't.
You do realize that’s probably true for at least half of the P5s? If those schools are being honest with themselves they know where they stand competitively. They are not serious contenders but primarily pretenders, just like us and the rest of the G5. As an alum, for me, there is just more interest that comes with being in FBS. Seems to give us some sense of football relevance, and by extension, athletics relevance. Otherwise what’s the point of dropping to another level? An FCS National Championship would mean very little to me. May as well win the OAC. Just my opinion.
To each their own, but I've been to multiple FCS playoff games. One at Richmond and a "final four" game at JMU. Both atmospheres straight up destroyed any game day I've ever experienced in Athens, with the lone exception being Solich's first game vs. Pitt. And even then, it's very close. And an FBS playoff game has an atmosphere that's 1000x more electric than any bowl game we've ever played in, and better than just about every MAC Championship game, too.

By and large, our student body doesn't care about our football program, nor does our alumni base. It's an unfortunate truth, but a truth none the less, that very big football fans at OU get together on Saturdays to watch OSU and basically ignore Ohio.

FBS may feel more "relevant", but the reality is we're FBS in name only. We could go undefeated for two straight seasons and still not make the playoff, and the restructuring is only likely to formalize that. P5 champs will all be guaranteed a spot, at large will go to the P5, and the G5 will get a single entrant who will play Alabama in round one, lose by 45, and then have to share the playoff purse with 14 other schools.

I'm no expert on the financials here, but I think the entire MAC should be exploring dropping to FCS in football and investing more heavily in basketball, where there's a much more obvious playbook towards relevancy. I'm sure it's more complicated than that makes it seem, but I really struggle to see how we justify the current set up.

The only case people ever seem to make for it basically boils down to "I prefer it."
The evidence indicates that, by and large, our student body doesn't care about basketball either (a sentiment not share on this board, obviously)

In any case, dropping football to FCS to shower the VAST sums of money that that would free up (I'm being sarcastic) on basketball is a terrible idea. Because I feel like it would be.
It does seem like student interest in basketball is way lower than it was when I was in Athens. But at least there's an actual history of support for the basketball team; that doesn't exist in football. Basketball at least has a playbook to follow to get there, and doesn't have to contend with an equivalent of Ohio State that OU students follow more closely.
Are you unaware of student attendance at Ohio football games over the past 10 years? Not bad actually.
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Jeff McKinney
11/14/2021 9:49 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
The Athens community is already irate about what OU spends on athletics.
Would the Athens community be a little less irate if at least one of the two November home football games was back on a Saturday? Midweek MACtion appeals to ADs; the WKU AD mentioned it as a plus for the MAC. But it certainly cuts down the home crowds at the games. I know that folks coming in from out of town would spend thousands, probably tens of thousands, in the Athens area, even on November Saturdays. Dad's Weekend used to be centered around a Saturday football game, but now there's just an exhibition b-ball game. That probably makes a difference in some dads' decision about coming to Athens for the weekend.
I think that "irate" statement is way overgeneralized. Certain sectors of the community are irate,not the entire community.
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TWT
11/14/2021 10:42 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
The Athens community is already irate about what OU spends on athletics.
Would the Athens community be a little less irate if at least one of the two November home football games was back on a Saturday? Midweek MACtion appeals to ADs; the WKU AD mentioned it as a plus for the MAC. But it certainly cuts down the home crowds at the games. I know that folks coming in from out of town would spend thousands, probably tens of thousands, in the Athens area, even on November Saturdays. Dad's Weekend used to be centered around a Saturday football game, but now there's just an exhibition b-ball game. That probably makes a difference in some dads' decision about coming to Athens for the weekend.
I was talking about the portion of the Athens community affected by job cuts while the administrators and coaches in some circumstances are pulling in an excessive amount of money. I noticed those salaries accelerating 10 years ago but the Athens community as a whole has lately become more aware of it.

Looking at the Athens business community perspective, the best home crowds have come since midweeks and the coaching salaries aren't in relation to the income they bring in so I doubt they are irate about it. It allowed hotels to charge $300 dollars during an OU football weekend.

Overall whether or not to have midweeks are minor in the grand scheme as attendance in the MAC isn't big anyways. What looms larger is how much is or isn't spent on the coaching staffs. It can start to become a cycle of dead money if coaches fail. That and interest in general in college sports is on the decline and doesn't resonate as a college selection factor with the current generation.

Ohio State's in game attendance is down 30,000 which means actual interest has probably cut in half. Florida State has dropped from 90k to the 50k-60k depending on the game. They got a season high 72k for Miami in the opener. In the PAC-12 its worse as many games are pulling under 20,000. USC had about 15,000 for homecoming.

https://thespun.com/college-football/usc-football-attenda...
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TWT
11/14/2021 11:15 PM
Let's put more resources into basketball so we can keep up with Miami. They averaged 1,507 in basketball last season, a far cry from the Wally days when they pulled 7,500. Eastern Michigan actually did better pulling in 1,663 per game.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/2021/Attend...
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TWT
11/15/2021 12:05 AM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.
This is a masterclass in avoiding addressing the actual point of an argument in favor of arguing around the edges. You're welcome to consider me a 'negative Nancy' all you want; what's very clear to me is how hard a lot of people here are willing to work to pretend the reality of the situation our football program finds itself in is not the reality.

Whether we're the worst conference, or second worst doesn't change the calculus much. It's just bickering around the margins, but unrelated to the core challenge we face. Ditto that Toledo and Buffalo may have been approached about switching conferences. Especially with the number of 'maybes' in your own explanation. The reality is you can't provide any evidence that Buffalo and Toledo were offered by the AAC and chose not to join; it's just the narrative that suits you best, and therefore the one you're choosing to believe.

And even were your narrative 100% correct, it still doesn't add up to a position of strength in the landscape of college football. It doesn't make the finances add up. It doesn't mean we're eligible for a national championship.

It just means that there's a worse conference out there. At best, that puts us in the bottom 10% of programs at our level without any path to improve on that.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I mentioned TV but a lot if it also is making it a quality experience for the alumni. Compare football and basketball for a second.

Football season
Big roadies
Non-conference in Peden
Rivalry game and weekends
Championship race
MACC and post season experience

Basketball season
Preseason Tournaments
Big roadies
Rivalry game and weekends
Championship race
MACC and post season experience

Its about offering a compelling as possible product for alums and fans. Football for a long time did not have a high caliber non-conference season as basketball. The overall experience is what to sell. The programs are not in a footrace with the elite but they offer quality experiences.

I'm not sure how nixing football to get on the dead money train in men's basketball makes sense because people want more options. Athens would lose out on 10 million a year of economic impact without having football.

Whether or not Ohio can challenge for a national title is immaterial to offering an experience for the fans.
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CatsUp
11/15/2021 7:52 AM
Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
[

Thanks, Victory. That makes my point.

And, BLSS's point about the MAC not being raided doesn't really mean when he thinks it means. How do you know that no MAC teams have been approached about moving to other conferences? There have been rumors about Toledo and Buffalo having been approached by the AAC at one point. Maybe they didn't want to move, the same way MTSU didn't want to move from their current conference.
This is a masterclass in avoiding addressing the actual point of an argument in favor of arguing around the edges. You're welcome to consider me a 'negative Nancy' all you want; what's very clear to me is how hard a lot of people here are willing to work to pretend the reality of the situation our football program finds itself in is not the reality.

Whether we're the worst conference, or second worst doesn't change the calculus much. It's just bickering around the margins, but unrelated to the core challenge we face. Ditto that Toledo and Buffalo may have been approached about switching conferences. Especially with the number of 'maybes' in your own explanation. The reality is you can't provide any evidence that Buffalo and Toledo were offered by the AAC and chose not to join; it's just the narrative that suits you best, and therefore the one you're choosing to believe.

And even were your narrative 100% correct, it still doesn't add up to a position of strength in the landscape of college football. It doesn't make the finances add up. It doesn't mean we're eligible for a national championship.

It just means that there's a worse conference out there. At best, that puts us in the bottom 10% of programs at our level without any path to improve on that.

What's actually good about this situation and how do we justify continuing to invest in maintaining this status quo?
I mentioned TV but a lot if it also is making it a quality experience for the alumni. Compare football and basketball for a second.

Football season
Big roadies
Non-conference in Peden
Rivalry game and weekends
Championship race
MACC and post season experience

Basketball season
Preseason Tournaments
Big roadies
Rivalry game and weekends
Championship race
MACC and post season experience

Its about offering a compelling as possible product for alums and fans. Football for a long time did not have a high caliber non-conference season as basketball. The overall experience is what to sell. The programs are not in a footrace with the elite but they offer quality experiences.

I'm not sure how nixing football to get on the dead money train in men's basketball makes sense because people want more options. Athens would lose out on 10 million a year of economic impact without having football.

Whether or not Ohio can challenge for a national title is immaterial to offering an experience for the fans.
And, to make blanket statements that, in effect, say basketball interest is so much greater than football at Ohio sure isn’t supported by the historic number of topics and posts on this board either. (I equally like and support both and, right now, admit that I’m more excited about basketball and what Coach Boals is doing.)
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/17/2021 9:56 AM
Club Hyatt wrote:expand_more
I mentioned TV but a lot if it also is making it a quality experience for the alumni. Compare football and basketball for a second.

Football season
Big roadies
Non-conference in Peden
Rivalry game and weekends
Championship race
MACC and post season experience [/QUOTE]Maybe you hang out with different alumni than I do, but who actually cares about these things? Let's go through the list:

Big roadies: Who are these, again? This year we played at Northwestern, 2019 at Pitt, 2018 at Virginia, 2017 at Purdue. Is that what you're talking about? Do those games drum up much alumni interest? I'm open to the possibility they do, but what evidence are you able to show?

Non-conference in Peden: We play a purposefully underwhelming non-conference schedule to ensure bowl eligibility. Who is the best team to come through Peden in the last 10 years?

Rivalry games and weekends: we barely play on weekends, and our rivalry games almost never fall on weekends anymore as a result of the MACs TV deal. I think you're talking about generic traits of college football, not anything specific to OU.

Championship race: We've never won the championship.

MACC and Post season: We've been in the MACC a couple of times and we play in Bowl Games that consistently get rated as the least interesting and have the lowest ratings. I don't see how this is a selling point.

Its about offering a compelling as possible product for alums and fans. Football for a long time did not have a high caliber non-conference season as basketball. The overall experience is what to sell. The programs are not in a footrace with the elite but they offer quality experiences.
I agree it's about offering as compelling a product as possible. I do not think the current state of the football program and where we fit in the FBS pecking order allows us to offer a compelling product. If we could magically see what Athens would be like hosting a national final four game at the FCS level on a Friday night against JMU, I think you'd recognize that it's a more compelling product than anything you've outlined above.

I just don't think there are stakes at play in our current set up.

I'm not sure how nixing football to get on the dead money train in men's basketball makes sense because people want more options. Athens would lose out on 10 million a year of economic impact without having football.
I'm not suggesting nixing football.

[QUOTE=Club Hyatt]
Whether or not Ohio can challenge for a national title is immaterial to offering an experience for the fans.
I agree. I also do not think that being at the FBS level is particularly material either, given the level we compete at within FBS, and the current experience for alumni. We have forfeited many of the most compelling components of the fan experience in the interest of keeping our head above water at the FBS level.
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El Gato Roberto
11/17/2021 12:49 PM
Off topic a little…

I’d like to see college football adopt a relegation system like English Football (soccer). No more meaningless games. Once a team is out of bowl eligibility what do they have to play for? I mean come on. Indiana just gave up against Rutgers, last week. If their loss sends them to the MAC and CMU, NIU or Kent St to the Big Ten? I don’t think they lose 38-3 at home, you know?

The B1G would never approve…but it’s fun to ponder. (Of course it could also send the bottom MAC school down to, I don’t know, Ohio Valley or Missouri Valley for football?)
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/17/2021 12:58 PM
El Gato Roberto wrote:expand_more
Off topic a little…

I’d like to see college football adopt a relegation system like English Football (soccer). No more meaningless games. Once a team is out of bowl eligibility what do they have to play for? I mean come on. Indiana just gave up against Rutgers, last week. If their loss sends them to the MAC and CMU, NIU or Kent St to the Big Ten? I don’t think they lose 38-3 at home, you know?

The B1G would never approve…but it’s fun to ponder. (Of course it could also send the bottom MAC school down to, I don’t know, Ohio Valley or Missouri Valley for football?)
This would be a great addition. As you mention, the P5 would never commit to it, but it's the best approach to addressing the multi-tiered system that's developed, and providing upward mobility to that have earned it.

As things stand, the factors that play into mobility have little to do with success and more to do with money and market size.
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GoCats105
11/17/2021 1:57 PM
BLSS: you asked who the most compelling home opponent was of the last ten years, so I decided to look. If I've listed a conference opponent there wasn't a good enough OOC game. In fact, some of them were quite dreadful.

2011: Temple (9-4) - I believe this was the Bobcat Blackout game that ended up deciding the East Division. Probably the best widweek MACtion game we've ever had. We also played Marshall at home this season but they weren't particularly good and we kicked the crap out of them.

2012: Bowling Green (8-5)

2013: Tie between North Texas (9-4) and Marshall (10-4)

2014: Bowling Green (8-6)

2015: Marshall (10-3)

2016: Wow...just wow. Our most "compelling" home matchup that year was probably the opener against Texas State (2-10). We lost that game.

2017: Kansas (1-11)! and Toledo (11-3)

2018: Buffalo (10-4)

2019: Louisiana (11-3)

2020: N/A

2021: Syracuse (currently 5-5)
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El Gato Roberto
11/17/2021 1:59 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Off topic a little…

I’d like to see college football adopt a relegation system like English Football (soccer). No more meaningless games. Once a team is out of bowl eligibility what do they have to play for? I mean come on. Indiana just gave up against Rutgers, last week. If their loss sends them to the MAC and CMU, NIU or Kent St to the Big Ten? I don’t think they lose 38-3 at home, you know?

The B1G would never approve…but it’s fun to ponder. (Of course it could also send the bottom MAC school down to, I don’t know, Ohio Valley or Missouri Valley for football?)
This would be a great addition. As you mention, the P5 would never commit to it, but it's the best approach to addressing the multi-tiered system that's developed, and providing upward mobility to that have earned it.

As things stand, the factors that play into mobility have little to do with success and more to do with money and market size.
It would give November games a big boost. I’d imagine the TV ratings would soar all across the networks and streaming services! Another way to handle relegation would be to include the P5 bottom-feeders in the FCS playoffs. A whole new way to survive and advance. Fun to think about.
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BillyTheCat
11/17/2021 2:20 PM
Last 10 years? Best team would be Louisiana IMO
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GoCats105
11/17/2021 3:49 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Last 10 years? Best team would be Louisiana IMO
It's so hard to admit that but...yeah.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
11/17/2021 3:52 PM
El Gato Roberto wrote:expand_more
It would give November games a big boost. I’d imagine the TV ratings would soar all across the networks and streaming services! Another way to handle relegation would be to include the P5 bottom-feeders in the FCS playoffs. A whole new way to survive and advance. Fun to think about.
Yep, would be very cool. You could also create an FA Cup style random draw tournament that runs throughout the season.
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