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Topic: Its Conventional Wisdom
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PutnamField
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Posted: 9/28/2010 11:26 AM
Jughead wrote:expand_more
Granted Toledo's kicker missed 4 field goals and Marshall's kicker wasn't much (if any) better ...


Solich, on his radio show last night when asked about his decision to go for two rather than go to overtime with Marshall, said, "They have a good field goal kicker, too."

Tyler Warner, the Marshall kicker, is 1 for 4 on field goals this year. He's missed from 40 and 39 yards, had one blocked from 42 yards and made one against Ohio from 23 yards. Last year, he had no field goal attempts as he handled kickoff duties. In his freshman season, he was 3 for 5 on field goals.

That's a good kicker?
JSF
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Posted: 9/28/2010 12:53 PM
For the masses I present: There is no momentum.  I hope you take a few minutes to read and mull over what he says (as well as the linked study).  It's interesting.

I don't think many are arguing we should have kicked, and it was the smarter play.  We're getting lost in Burke's invective.  He has the grace of a firecracker sometimes, and while he knows the numbers, I think he does a poor job of contextualizing them (he once advocated for Justin Orr to shoot more threes).

It doesn't often matter if you were an underdog before the game, and if the coaches are looking at the odds, they need to be smacked in the head.  Han Solo, am I right?  The big question here- and a few people have rightly brought it up- is the impact of the timeout.  I'm not aware of how things change when the defense calls timeout.  I imagine that swings things a little bit in favor of the defending team.  Even with that in mind, I still favor going for it (but I certainly don't favor the play called).

Another point: Always just going off the chart and looking at what the probability tells you is not wise.  As others have said, there is context that the numbers just can't account for in the flow of a game.  You should know the numbers and strongly weigh them in your decision making, but it absolutely should not be a factor of 100%.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 9/28/2010 3:00 PM
Jughead wrote:expand_more
I just have to ask it, have we lost in OT with Frank at the helm?

I've been ridiculously critical of Frank for the last few weeks, but other coaches must be just as stupid if they constantly give us a last second shots at the endzone rather than trying to make the game a two possession game. Granted Toledo's kicker missed 4 field goals and Marshall's kicker wasn't much (if any) better, but why are they not taking a shot at 3 points to put the game out of reach? Each game, we have had a shot to move that ball down the field with the chance to tie after stopping 4th down plays in the backfield.


I don't think trying a field goal was even an option here. Sure, it would have put the game out of reach, but so would have gaining two yards for a first down. The odds were much better for Marshall at getting a first down than making a field goal from that distance. Also the odds are a lot lower for something terrible to happen, such as a blocked field goal. The only other thing for Marshall to consider realistically was punting and making the field even longer.

Separately, here is Frank's response on going for two on the MAC media call-in show:
“I don’t think it can be an automatic decision. Too many factors have to enter into play, but No. 1, if you have confidence in what your two-point play is, that enters into it. Also, other factors into it are how well are they moving the football? They took their team on numerous long drives against us and were throwing the ball very well, so it wasn’t a situation where I felt totally comfortable with us being able to stop them on a 25-yard drive. Their field goal kicker was 1-for-1 in our game and he hit it very solid, so that kind of counter balances our field goal kicker a little bit, who we think is a great field goal kicker. You add all those together and you make the decision, and the decision to go for it, I think was the proper decision and I would do it again with all those factors entering in.”
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 9/28/2010 3:55 PM
Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
For the masses I present: There is no momentum.  I hope you take a few minutes to read and mull over what he says (as well as the linked study).  It's interesting.


Thanks Dragon, that was what I was hoping to get from Burke.  I wanted to see the actual study to see what was being tested.  In this case, the limitations of the study are quite apparent, specifically related to the way momentum is defined.  From the link:

Quote:expand_more
He defined a very bad thing as a change of possession where the field position changed ten yards or less, e.g., turnover on downs, fumble. And he defined a very good thing as a touchdown. Each definition gave him over 600 NFL plays to examine the aftermath of.


That is a fairly narrow definition of momentum.  For example, an INT at the goalline would not necessarily be included in the above, but would commonly be viewed as a potential momentum changer.  Nor would a series of events in which you score, and then hold the other team to a 3 and out be considered "momentum" for purposes of the study. 

The study also doesn't appear to take into consideration the timing of the events.  For instance, I would want to know whether the analysis would change if one looked only at events following a game tying hail mary TD, as opposed to all TDs in general.  That may not change the outcome of the analysis, but it seems reasonable to me that the data may turn out differently in the hail mary situation.

I don't disagree that momentum is thrown out there way too often by the average fan or commentator.  But that doesn't mean that it never exists in any circumstance.  Given the limitations of the study, I wouldn't say the issue is anywhere nearly as clear cut as Burke claimed.
Tim Burke
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Posted: 9/28/2010 7:24 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Given the limitations of the study, I wouldn't say the issue is anywhere nearly as clear cut as Burke claimed.


One of the most popular demonstrations of economics approaches to everyday topics is the disproving of "momentum." It's in pretty much every mainstream "you are wrong about your belief in certain things" book, Freakonomics, Malcolm Gladwell etc. It's been studied time and time again. Each consecutive play that you perform successfully decreases the chance you run the next one successfully. 

"all you math-heads are ruining the game and taking away the human element"

you mean taking away the element that leads to losing games? okay. I suppose you don't like the intentional walk even though it reduces run allowed expectation (when used conventionally). I suppose you don't like zone defenses because it forces the other team to take shots that have a lower field goal percentage.

You know what you DO like if you oppose the use of economic and mathematic theory in sports? You like losing. I bet you're a huge fan of Mike McCarthy allowing his team to lose last night instead of giving his team a chance to win.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 9/28/2010 8:32 PM
Tim Burke wrote:expand_more
One of the most popular demonstrations of economics approaches to everyday topics is the disproving of "momentum." It's in pretty much every mainstream "you are wrong about your belief in certain things" book, Freakonomics, Malcolm Gladwell etc. It's been studied time and time again. Each consecutive play that you perform successfully decreases the chance you run the next one successfully. 


Well, there's also an entire body of psychological research which remains very split on the matter:

http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol8Iss1/Momentum.htm

So it's not nearly as settled as you believe.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 9/28/2010 11:05 PM
I'd say Flomo has the "Big MO" in this debate!   
Tim Burke
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Posted: 9/28/2010 11:44 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
One of the most popular demonstrations of economics approaches to everyday topics is the disproving of "momentum." It's in pretty much every mainstream "you are wrong about your belief in certain things" book, Freakonomics, Malcolm Gladwell etc. It's been studied time and time again. Each consecutive play that you perform successfully decreases the chance you run the next one successfully. 


Well, there's also an entire body of psychological research which remains very split on the matter:

http://www.athleticinsight.com/Vol8Iss1/Momentum.htm

So it's not nearly as settled as you believe.


I am a qualitative researcher. I embrace the value of narrative and reflexive inquiry in enabling a thick description of the nature of things via evocation inspired by observation.

That having been said, the chief conclusion of that literature review is this:

The use of ‘non-traditional’ methods of enquiry is long overdue in this area. The advantage of using a qualitative method is that it allows an in-depth understanding of participants’ personal constructs and experiences (see Jones et al., 2002)


We are talking about sports, not culture. Sports have irrefutable and binary (unless it's soccer haha) results and, furthermore, the contribution of the supposed concept is alleged to influence these results so any examination of the presence of a direct variable by definition must engage in and apply a quantitative instrument.

Nobody cares if momentum makes a player feel better about his or her experience in the game (in this discussion which is premised upon whether or not the decision was the one most likely to lead to a winning outcome). So "non-traditional" methods are not really appropriate here.

That having been said, there is an argument to be made about a football game being itself an iteration of a larger game, which you might call the season. And that decisions made within that iteration might result in a lessened chance of winning that specific iteration but increasing the chances of winning future iterations through "motivation."

In that you might find an argument for Mike McCarthy keeping his defense on the field last night. He gave Chicago the game in order to keep his defense from committing mutiny at the embarrassment of having to commit a Gator Flop.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:34 AM
IT'S CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT A TEAM THAT WON MAC EAST LAST YEAR AND RETURNED MANY KEY STARTERS OUGHTS TO SPANK FATMAN AND STUPD COW HANDILY--NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT LAST MINUTE OVERTIME CONSIDERATIONS.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 9/29/2010 6:47 AM
Tim, that's all fair.  I agree that quantitative research (if properly framed) is generally going to be more beneficial in this area than qualitative reseearch.  My only point, again, is just that this is not as open and shut a case as you suggested earlier.  It remains an open question in the minds of researchers in at least one legitimate field of study.
Tim Burke
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:08 PM
Monroe Slavin, CPA wrote:expand_more
IT'S CONVENTIONAL WISDOM THAT A TEAM THAT WON MAC EAST LAST YEAR AND RETURNED MANY KEY STARTERS OUGHTS TO SPANK FATMAN AND STUPD COW HANDILY--NO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT LAST MINUTE OVERTIME CONSIDERATIONS.


I'm not sure anyone here can argue with that.
PutnamField
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:14 PM
Tim Burke wrote:expand_more
I am a qualitative researcher. I embrace the value of narrative and reflexive inquiry in enabling a thick description of the nature of things via evocation inspired by observation.

That having been said, the chief conclusion of that literature review is this:

The use of ‘non-traditional’ methods of enquiry is long overdue in this area. The advantage of using a qualitative method is that it allows an in-depth understanding of participants’ personal constructs and experiences (see Jones et al., 2002)
We are talking about sports, not culture. Sports have irrefutable and binary (unless it's soccer haha) results and, furthermore, the contribution of the supposed concept is alleged to influence these results so any examination of the presence of a direct variable by definition must engage in and apply a quantitative instrument.

Nobody cares if momentum makes a player feel better about his or her experience in the game (in this discussion which is premised upon whether or not the decision was the one most likely to lead to a winning outcome). So "non-traditional" methods are not really appropriate here.

That having been said, there is an argument to be made about a football game being itself an iteration of a larger game, which you might call the season. And that decisions made within that iteration might result in a lessened chance of winning that specific iteration but increasing the chances of winning future iterations through "motivation."

In that you might find an argument for Mike McCarthy keeping his defense on the field last night. He gave Chicago the game in order to keep his defense from committing mutiny at the embarrassment of having to commit a Gator Flop.


Your epistemological ramblings notwithstanding, the moment  Russ and Rob started saying, "Guts," my gut told me that the team would go for two and not make it.

Tim, here are a few links you might (not) find useful:

www.suite101.com/content/increase-interest-by-simplifying-your-writing-a81015

www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-simplify-your-writing-and-gain-results/
Last Edited: 9/29/2010 6:07:52 PM by PutnamField
Mike Coleman
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:24 PM
Does confidence affect performance? Does confidence exist?

Discuss.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:30 PM
I was thinking the same thing Mike.  From personal experience in golf and basketball, I know that when I think I can do something (confidence) I'm more likely to try and more often than not, the results have been good.
bobcat695
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Posted: 9/29/2010 2:34 PM
You are now going to bring some PhD thesis denying existence of "The Zone".  Confidence matters and that leads to changes in performance.  Call it momentum, or whatever you want, but if you are involved in a sport the ebb and flow of the game is palpable.  The person that expects to win usually does.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 9/29/2010 6:18 PM
Does anyone think if we were 3 and 1 rather than 1 and 3 we would be having this conversation?  Better win Saturday or we might find ourselves discussing the origin of the species.
Tim Burke
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Posted: 9/29/2010 10:42 PM
PutnamField wrote:expand_more
Your epistemological ramblings notwithstanding, the moment  Russ and Rob started saying, "Guts," my gut told me that the team would go for two and not make it.

Tim, here are a few links you might (not) find useful:

www.suite101.com/content/increase-interest-by-simplifying-your-writing-a81015

www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-simplify-your-writing-and-gain-results/


So... you don't dispute my logic then. Good to know.


Or do you have some actual response? Math is not 'epistemological ramblings."
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 9/29/2010 11:49 PM
Mathematics can be viewed in many different ways and from many different philosophical perspectives.  Some say it's a science.  Others say it's a "detached language" with its own syntax and grammar.  Some say it's a tool of science, but not a science in itself.  Etc. Etc.  However, whatever your philosophical perspective on the nature of mathematics it is quite clear that taking a mathematical perspective on an issue is staking out a specific epistemological viewpoint.  
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