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Tim Burke
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Posted: 5/25/2011 5:19 PM
I guess Viscom is a "meaningless" major, despite our Viscom school producing some of the world's top photojournalists. You know, because we don't need to see pictures of what's happening in the world.

I'm friends with an award-winning photojournalist for a highly-esteemed newspaper. While she attended Florida, many of her colleagues are Ohio alums. 
Paul Graham
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Posted: 5/25/2011 6:19 PM
Tim Burke wrote:expand_more
I guess Viscom is a "meaningless" major, despite our Viscom school producing some of the world's top photojournalists. You know, because we don't need to see pictures of what's happening in the world.

I'm friends with an award-winning photojournalist for a highly-esteemed newspaper. While she attended Florida, many of her colleagues are Ohio alums. 


Perfect form on the straw man Burke.

I also know Ohio photojournalists that are very successful and incredibly intelligent. I never mentioned that major, nor called it meaningless.
Tim Burke
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Posted: 5/26/2011 12:26 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
I guess Viscom is a "meaningless" major, despite our Viscom school producing some of the world's top photojournalists. You know, because we don't need to see pictures of what's happening in the world.

I'm friends with an award-winning photojournalist for a highly-esteemed newspaper. While she attended Florida, many of her colleagues are Ohio alums. 


Perfect form on the straw man Burke.

I also know Ohio photojournalists that are very successful and incredibly intelligent. I never mentioned that major, nor called it meaningless.


You're the guy who thinks there isn't any research done in broadcast journalism, nor research funding available for that research. I'd shut up if I were you before I said something else stupid.
Bobcatbob
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Posted: 5/26/2011 10:01 AM
anorris wrote:expand_more
The word profession implies on one level licensing by the state as in medicine, law, nursing, some kinds of engineering, psychological counseling, social work, etc...

Devil's Advocate time, and trying to throw out why it is such a difficult (and ultimately, in my eyes, meaningless) distinction.

Is Cosmetology a profession or a trade?


Good point.  Let's try this.  My accounting brethren have often made the point that one thing that sets a profession apart is the creation of a set of standards and ethics for the profession that the members are accountable for maintaining through self discipline.  I can't speak for cosmetologists but it seems to be true for phsyicians, engineers, lawyers, accountants(?) and others.  Although the state licenses each of these jobs, they do it based on the professional standards not necessarily laws.  There are no state law firm inspectors that I know of.

The greatest fear of the accounting profession has always been that a scandal would engender more and more regulation and less self-determination.  Much of the legislation following the Enron and WorldCom collapses did exactly that. Sarbanes-Oxley put the fear of god in all of us includeing those who bolted for industry employement.
Here is the Wikipedia version for lazy readers like me.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes%E2%80%93Oxley_Act
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 5/26/2011 12:47 PM
Funny, but after I got my J.D. and was duly licensed, I didn't feel any more "professional" than I did after earning my BSJ. 

Indeed, one of the aspects of the BSJ experience that I valued then - and now - was its liberal arts emphasis.  At that time, if my memory hasn't sprung another leak, of the 124 semester  hours required for a degree, no more than 40 could be in journalism or related courses.  The rest were in such disciplines as economics, history, government, etc.  As an elective, I once took Greek Words in the English Language.

By contrast, my law school experience had much more of a "trades" feel than did the j-school experience.

The late Prof. Mel Helitzer, he of the antipathy for 'apostrophe' meetings, would doubtlessly be chortling at the debate in this thread - if he had managed to ward off dozing.
Paul Graham
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Posted: 5/26/2011 1:25 PM
Tim Burke wrote:expand_more
I guess Viscom is a "meaningless" major, despite our Viscom school producing some of the world's top photojournalists. You know, because we don't need to see pictures of what's happening in the world.

I'm friends with an award-winning photojournalist for a highly-esteemed newspaper. While she attended Florida, many of her colleagues are Ohio alums. 


Perfect form on the straw man Burke.

I also know Ohio photojournalists that are very successful and incredibly intelligent. I never mentioned that major, nor called it meaningless.


You're the guy who thinks there isn't any research done in broadcast journalism, nor research funding available for that research. I'd shut up if I were you before I said something else stupid.


ZING. Well, I suppose it was wrong for me to say that you can't research broadcast journalism. What I should have said is that virtually no one will fund it. Which is why the total research grants received last year by the communications college was a paltry 200K.
C Money
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Posted: 5/27/2011 12:40 PM
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.

Tying this thread to the Tattoogate thread, I believe Ray Small. I'll be honest: I don't mind osu the football team. But I do mind osu the NOTHING-MATTERS-EXCEPT-BUCKEYE-FOOTBALL attitude. Based on my 3 years in Columbus and on osu's campus, I 100% believe that the football players were told "don't do these things" but no one cared to follow the rules, because it's impossible to hold yourself accountable in an environment where 90% of the people around you worship the ground you walk on simply because you are on the football team. If you're an osu football player, of course you're going to get cash and cars and ladies and anything else you want. You can't help it because people fall over themselves to give it to you.

And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.
BattleCat
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Posted: 5/27/2011 8:42 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.

Tying this thread to the Tattoogate thread, I believe Ray Small. I'll be honest: I don't mind osu the football team. But I do mind osu the NOTHING-MATTERS-EXCEPT-BUCKEYE-FOOTBALL attitude. Based on my 3 years in Columbus and on osu's campus, I 100% believe that the football players were told "don't do these things" but no one cared to follow the rules, because it's impossible to hold yourself accountable in an environment where 90% of the people around you worship the ground you walk on simply because you are on the football team. If you're an osu football player, of course you're going to get cash and cars and ladies and anything else you want. You can't help it because people fall over themselves to give it to you.

And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.
Should mega churches be tax exempt?
anorris
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Posted: 5/27/2011 10:14 PM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.

Tying this thread to the Tattoogate thread, I believe Ray Small. I'll be honest: I don't mind osu the football team. But I do mind osu the NOTHING-MATTERS-EXCEPT-BUCKEYE-FOOTBALL attitude. Based on my 3 years in Columbus and on osu's campus, I 100% believe that the football players were told "don't do these things" but no one cared to follow the rules, because it's impossible to hold yourself accountable in an environment where 90% of the people around you worship the ground you walk on simply because you are on the football team. If you're an osu football player, of course you're going to get cash and cars and ladies and anything else you want. You can't help it because people fall over themselves to give it to you.

And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.


Should mega churches be tax exempt?
Should churches be tax exempt?
BattleCat
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Posted: 5/28/2011 8:17 AM
There is a difference in the financial structure of the various levels of education and athletics, we talk about taxing the mega wealthy, but where would you draw the line? Taxing every school would hurt many, and the people who would suffer is the SA. I used the mega churches as an example, as some are in an arms race and use their cash for outwardly political causes. But taxing every church would hurt the little guy who is simply trying to serve a congregation.

Both are tricky issues.
JSF
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Posted: 5/28/2011 8:54 AM
anorris wrote:expand_more
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.

Tying this thread to the Tattoogate thread, I believe Ray Small. I'll be honest: I don't mind osu the football team. But I do mind osu the NOTHING-MATTERS-EXCEPT-BUCKEYE-FOOTBALL attitude. Based on my 3 years in Columbus and on osu's campus, I 100% believe that the football players were told "don't do these things" but no one cared to follow the rules, because it's impossible to hold yourself accountable in an environment where 90% of the people around you worship the ground you walk on simply because you are on the football team. If you're an osu football player, of course you're going to get cash and cars and ladies and anything else you want. You can't help it because people fall over themselves to give it to you.

And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.


Should mega churches be tax exempt?
Should churches be tax exempt?


Should your mom be tax exempt?
Deciduous Forest Cat
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Posted: 5/28/2011 10:26 AM
anorris wrote:expand_more
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.

Tying this thread to the Tattoogate thread, I believe Ray Small. I'll be honest: I don't mind osu the football team. But I do mind osu the NOTHING-MATTERS-EXCEPT-BUCKEYE-FOOTBALL attitude. Based on my 3 years in Columbus and on osu's campus, I 100% believe that the football players were told "don't do these things" but no one cared to follow the rules, because it's impossible to hold yourself accountable in an environment where 90% of the people around you worship the ground you walk on simply because you are on the football team. If you're an osu football player, of course you're going to get cash and cars and ladies and anything else you want. You can't help it because people fall over themselves to give it to you.

And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.


Should mega churches be tax exempt?
Should churches be tax exempt?


No, and no.

Edit: To stay on topic, Let me say that I like football.
Last Edited: 5/28/2011 10:28:26 AM by Deciduous Forest Cat
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 5/28/2011 1:52 PM
anorris wrote:expand_more
The word profession implies on one level licensing by the state as in medicine, law, nursing, some kinds of engineering, psychological counseling, social work, etc...

Devil's Advocate time, and trying to throw out why it is such a difficult (and ultimately, in my eyes, meaningless) distinction.

Is Cosmetology a profession or a trade?


IMHO, all professions require licensing, but not all occupations that require licensing are professions, in the general sense of the word.  I realize that this a point that can be argued many ways.  My basic point is that I do not think journalism is a profession so much as a craft, trade or art.  Years ago I was in the minority in voting against the name change from SDX to SPJ, and that was one of my major reasons for voting the way that I did. 

Edit: SPJ = Society of Professional Journalists
         SDX = Sigma Delta Chi (honorary journalism fraternity)
BattleCat
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Posted: 5/28/2011 9:31 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
The word profession implies on one level licensing by the state as in medicine, law, nursing, some kinds of engineering, psychological counseling, social work, etc...

Devil's Advocate time, and trying to throw out why it is such a difficult (and ultimately, in my eyes, meaningless) distinction.

Is Cosmetology a profession or a trade?


IMHO, all professions require licensing, but not all occupations that require licensing are professions, in the general sense of the word. I realize that this a point that can be argued many ways. My basic point is that I do not think journalism is a profession so much as a craft, trade or art. Years ago I was in the minority in voting against the name change from SDX to SPJ, and that was one of my major reasons for voting the way that I did.

Edit: SPJ = Society of Professional Journalists
SDX = Sigma Delta Chi (honorary journalism fraternity)
Agreed!
BattleCat
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Posted: 5/28/2011 9:34 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
http://www.nysscpa.org/taxstringer/2011/feb/roy.htm

I can't remember if this has been posted somewhere already, but this is a great legal analysis on the NCAA's tax-exempt status and the connection to academics. I'm not quite sold on the idea that the link between athletics and academics is strong enough to support the tax exemption...especially at the BCS conference schools with coaches making millions each year.


And it's that same kind of environment that leads to the inbalance of priorities between academics and athletics. Schools like Ohio that at least make an effort to tie the two should be praised. But the NCAA shouldn't get a pass because some member schools are doing the right thing when so many others obviously aren't.


Should mega churches be tax exempt?
Should churches be tax exempt?


Should your mom be tax exempt?
No, personally I don't think anyone or organization should be exempt. But if you really want to get into mom jokes,.......
C Money
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Posted: 5/30/2011 12:59 PM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Should mega churches be tax exempt?


It's not a question of size, but a question of use of income. If a church has $5 billion of income but uses the income on what it's supposed to and administrators and ministers make reasonable salaries, then it's not a problem. For the NCAA, the problem is that what the money is supposed to be spent on and what it actually is spent on aren't perceived to be equivalent. What it looks like is that the NCAA makes a ridiculous amount of money and gives a ridiculous amount of that money to top-tier administrators and coaches. Can the NCAA prove it really is about supporting education and that the salaries paid are reasonable? Maybe, but they haven't convinced me yet.
Athens Block
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Posted: 5/30/2011 2:02 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Tim Burke]
I also know Ohio photojournalists that are very successful and incredibly intelligent. I never mentioned that major, nor called it meaningless.


Just want to make sure I'm clear here....  

Degree which teaches students to shoot still photos = Worthwhile

Degree which teaches students to shoot video/film = Not Worthwhile


BattleCat
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Posted: 5/31/2011 7:52 AM
C Money wrote:expand_more
Should mega churches be tax exempt?


It's not a question of size, but a question of use of income. If a church has $5 billion of income but uses the income on what it's supposed to and administrators and ministers make reasonable salaries, then it's not a problem. For the NCAA, the problem is that what the money is supposed to be spent on and what it actually is spent on aren't perceived to be equivalent. What it looks like is that the NCAA makes a ridiculous amount of money and gives a ridiculous amount of that money to top-tier administrators and coaches. Can the NCAA prove it really is about supporting education and that the salaries paid are reasonable? Maybe, but they haven't convinced me yet.


You don't think some of these Mega Church leaders are not living lavish lifestyles?  and cashing unreasonable salaries?

https://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/tag/megachurch/

Quick check, I have found at least 5 people making 500,000+, the CFO of the Crystal Cathedral just had their salary lowered by the bankruptcy court to $300,000, almost a 50% cut over the $595,000 they were making before bankruptcy. 
Last Edited: 5/31/2011 8:07:32 AM by BattleCat
C Money
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Posted: 5/31/2011 11:15 AM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Should mega churches be tax exempt?


It's not a question of size, but a question of use of income. If a church has $5 billion of income but uses the income on what it's supposed to and administrators and ministers make reasonable salaries, then it's not a problem. For the NCAA, the problem is that what the money is supposed to be spent on and what it actually is spent on aren't perceived to be equivalent. What it looks like is that the NCAA makes a ridiculous amount of money and gives a ridiculous amount of that money to top-tier administrators and coaches. Can the NCAA prove it really is about supporting education and that the salaries paid are reasonable? Maybe, but they haven't convinced me yet.


You don't think some of these Mega Church leaders are not living lavish lifestyles?  and cashing unreasonable salaries?

https://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/tag/megachurch/

Quick check, I have found at least 5 people making 500,000+, the CFO of the Crystal Cathedral just had their salary lowered by the bankruptcy court to $300,000, almost a 50% cut over the $595,000 they were making before bankruptcy. 


I didn't deny that the leaders of SOME mega churches are living lavish lifestyles and therefore possibly their tax-exempt status should be challenged. I said that the "MEGA" part of mega church has nothing to do with the tax exemption.
PutnamField
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Posted: 5/31/2011 12:55 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
There are only 2 PhD programs available that fall under a traditional liberal arts category.


Not at all true. For some reason, you're trying to leave mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology, psychology (and, arguably, communications) outside of the realm of liberal arts.

From Merriam-Webster: "liberal arts" = "college or university studies (as language, philosophy, literature, abstract science) intended to provide chiefly general knowledge and to develop general intellectual capacities (as reason and judgment) as opposed to professional or vocational skills."

From Dictionary.com: "liberal arts" = "1. the academic course of instruction at a college intended to provide general knowledge and comprising the arts, humanities, natural sciences, and social sciences, as opposed to professional or technical subjects. 2. (during the Middle Ages) studies comprising the quadrivium and trivium, including arithmetic, geometry, astronomy, music, grammar, rhetoric and logic."

From Encyclopedia Brittanica: " ... In modern colleges and universities the liberal arts include the study of literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science as the basis of a general, or liberal, education. Sometimes the liberal-arts curriculum is described as comprehending study of three main branches of knowledge: the humanities (literature, language, philosophy, the fine arts and history), the physical and biological sciences and mathematics, and the social sciences."

The idea of intrinsic knowledge and reasoning skills is so pre-1980s as to be incomprehensible to many?

"Yeah, man, you know, I'm going to college to expand my mind, man. I'm going to expand my horizons."

Nobody says that anymore.



The "centers of excellence" are, to call on the philosophy and logic I studied at Ohio, an example of "distraction by semantics." I challenge any bobcatattacker to read that mission statement gobbledygook and decipher what in the heck this "cultural and societal transformation" now perfusing Scripps is supposed to mean within the context of a society that doesn't necessarily want or need to be changed all that much. The Voinovich School's whole carbon tax agenda is an example of the old "appeal to consensus," as in, "that's been settled - now fall in line."

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I actually disagree with those who say that it is a profession. The word profession implies on one level licensing by the state as in medicine, law, nursing, some kinds of engineering, psychological counseling, social work, etc. The First Amendment prohibits any such licensing requirement for practicing journalism in the USA.
 

Perhaps, but by restricting Internet neutrality via bandwidth rationing, imposing licensure requirements on news blogging and killing the printed page, the same effect can be imposed. Beware of where we may be with that. 

Much of the best journalism (in terms of intrepidly pursuing important content) is now being done by non-professionals. The "golden age" for conventional reportage was when it was considered more of a trade and was less professionalized and done more by non-degree holders. One of the surest ways to foster groupthink is to herd people into professional societies and guilds. Professional membership dues are one of the fastest growing budget items in academe, based on Ohio University data I've perused.

OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
That will be changing, so Paul has bad timing in making his case. Ten years ago his criticisms would have made more sense. In fact, this shift in the profile of Ohio University is one of the things that's driving the extreme level of criticism of McDavis from some of humanity faculty members.
 

Great, maybe we can have a Reanimation Engineering Shock Center like VCU. You know, synthetic blood, zombie warriors, really neat stuff that jibes with the direction we should be heading in as Ohio University. STEM money is often used for evil things. But it's the only metric some people understand.
Last Edited: 5/31/2011 1:11:57 PM by PutnamField
Paul Graham
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Posted: 5/31/2011 5:40 PM
PutnamField wrote:expand_more
STEM money is often used for evil things. But it's the only metric some people understand.


This is pretty silly. I'm a vegan, so I dislike experimentation on animals...but modulo that, very little STEM research done at universities could be called evil by any sensible person. Even most DOD funded research tends to be quite benign.
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