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Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/7/2011 6:03 PM
How is it not working? I would have done it if I had the talent. My kids would do it if they get the opportunity. Indentured servitude it may be, but it also gets them perhaps $100,000 worth of education. That's pretty good money for 18-21 year olds.
Deciduous Forest Cat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 7:28 PM
Tough crap. You don't want to play a game to get your education room and board paid for? Try flipping burgers or sweeping floors... see how big a chunk of your tuition that covers.

I'm not saying most football players don't appreciate what they're getting, and I'm not saying it's easy (otherwise, everyone would do it)... But indentured servitude? Give me a break. How many schools actually make millions? How many schools even MAKE money at all?
BattleCat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 8:02 PM
79DAD wrote:expand_more
Athletes (football) are barely given enough to cover their housing expenses off campus, and their meal plan is not nearly enough to feed them (especially my kid). If they manage their funds closely they may have a little bit left over after housing expenses to offset what is lacking on the meal plan. These guys are not able to get a job due to school and training schedules. It is no wonder these guys are tempted by the easy money.

I see alot on this board about how these guys are getting a "free" education. Believe me, it is far from free. These guys work their butts off. Also to note that their scholarship is not "guaranteed" it is re-evaluated on a yearly basis.
79:, not all schools are the same, schools have many ways of giving extra money such as per diem and travel money when available. Us MAC schools work near the bottom of what is allowed, and out of state students get larger checks. Another factor with many athletes is financial need, athletic scholarships do NOT count against financial aid, and then you have the NCAA funds for those students who qualify.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 9:08 PM
How many hours within one year does a football player put in? Counting all games, practices, weight lifting (required and time put it on own), film study, play study, travel (but not leisure time during travel) any other activities? I realize it's hard work and it's probably a lot more hours of committment than most people realize. I know in-season, players have almost no free time. It's not easy. But I know I would have done it if I was good enough in exchange for my education. But I'd have done it just for fun (walkon) if I was good enough to do that.
BattleCat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 9:11 PM
Per NCAA rules 8 hours a week off-season, and 20 hours a week in-season.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 6/7/2011 9:56 PM
To be frank, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue.  But those of you who suggest that nothing's wrong with the system and that the kids get a free education are not persuasive here.

You are assuming the system to be correct ('look it gives them a free $100k in the form of their education!').

Instead, try this.  Assume all the money that's involved (revenues, costs).  I assume that you end up with a pretty good chunk of profit.  Now, let the players somehow come to the table as a bargaining partner.  Would they get some more of the profit? 

So, if you let the kids bargain as fair partners, do you free marketers think that they might be getting more than they are now?

Seems to me that you're arguing from an assumption that what exists now has to exist.  Free yourself from that conclusion and see what you get.
SBH
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Posted: 6/7/2011 10:32 PM
Hey, BattleCat...I think OSU's troubles just got much worse.  See ESPN.com.  And still wondering about your thoughts on the equipment manager's culpability...given your past position in Athens.
BattleCat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 10:46 PM
Looks like Pryor has a potential problem with the IRS, the real issue for the University will be did the powers that be know what was going on?

Also given the financial situation in Ohio, I wouldn't mind seeing the State collect their back taxes from this guy.
Last Edited: 6/7/2011 10:48:43 PM by BattleCat
The Situation
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Posted: 6/7/2011 11:15 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Seems to me that you're arguing from an assumption that what exists now has to exist.  Free yourself from that conclusion and see what you get.



What exists now has to exist or else it is every other non-revenue sport. Let's say the "broken" system is "fixed". The evil white collar devils (ABC/ESPN, the university's themselves) can no longer profit in any manner off these athletes. There are no more TV deals; there is a playoff that is hosted by the team with the better record (maybe the national championship is hosted on a neutral site in which both teams split the gate). Certainly in this world, no more bowl games. Depending how conservative you go with it, there may not even be a national championship, maybe the state schools just all play each other and the USAToday votes on the best team across the nation at the end of the year. The ticket revenue is barely enough (if enough at all) to cover the scholarships and the head coaches make 40k a year salary. Now no one is complaining about the extortion of these innocent players. People in Cleveland and throughout the state no longer care about A&M because they can't see it on TV, they can't even see the highlights on ESPN. This scenario is repeated across the country for people outside of the 50 mile radius of their beloved Big Time Football School. Out of sight out of mind. All of a sudden college football becomes as popular as college baseball or maybe even college hockey.

Is everyone happy now? No, no one is happy because people that love the monster that is college football now have a skeleton of what it once was; it becomes a glorified national high school league with much more exclusivity. The lobbyists that fought for moral reform have blown away with the wind to find another moral pursuit.

Oh and if you try to go in the capitalist direction you now have by definition a professional organization. If you pay the players, tax payers are now supplementing a minor league system for a private organization. That's not innovation, that's where things really get constitutional and we'll see how long the innocent athletes can outlast the wrath of tax players that could care less about American football.
cc-cat
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Posted: 6/7/2011 11:53 PM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Enlighten us, what is this all about?


Okay, maybe it is about tattoos...$40,000 worth of em.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 6/7/2011 11:56 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more

Athletes (football) are barely given enough to cover their housing expenses off campus, and their meal plan is not nearly enough to feed them (especially my kid).   If they manage their funds closely they may have a little bit left over after housing expenses  to offset what is lacking on the meal plan.  These guys are not able to get a job due to school and training schedules.    It is no wonder these guys are tempted by the easy money.

I see alot on this board about how these guys are getting a "free" education.  Believe me, it is far from free.  These guys work their butts off.  Also to note that their scholarship is not "guaranteed" it is re-evaluated on a yearly basis.



+1. The "free" education thing is complete malarkey. They are indentured servants. In the case of TOSU the athletes bring in HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars per year for the university. In exchange they are excused from paying tuition and given a meager stipend for year-around grueling work. I think it is pretty obvious that this system has evolved such that it is no longer sustainable. I'm not sure how this can be done, but somehow the players have to be compensated for their efforts. Or, perhaps a NFL minor league is needed.


Indentured servants.   You don't mean that literally, do you?

I do think it accurate to say that most HS football players who deem themselves capable of playing college football lust for a scholarship - with their parents supporting such lust for very understandable reasons.

Stated otherwise, college scholarship athletes have knowingly made a choice: pay me in the form of a valuable scholarship and I will willingly work hard to keep that scholarship intact for the next 4 or 5 years. 

Many non-scholarship students who graduate with crushing debt loads likely would have made the same choice had they had requisite athletic ability. 
Paul Graham
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Posted: 6/8/2011 12:07 AM
The Situation wrote:expand_more
Seems to me that you're arguing from an assumption that what exists now has to exist.  Free yourself from that conclusion and see what you get.

What exists now has to exist or else it is every other non-revenue sport.


Why is that? Why is there no middle ground? The fact that we all spend so much time on the message board of a MAC football team is evidence enough that fans won't go away if the quality of play drops. I'm a fan because I enjoy watching football and LOVE my university. Regardless of any reforms, as long as Ohio fields a football team I'll be interested. I'm guessing that's true for most.

I honestly don't know how to fix it but there is no question that something has to change.

And for the indentured servitude thing...yes at many schools this argument doesn't hold water. Most players coming to Athens are probably not headed to the NFL and because the program operates at a loss it kinda makes sense here. At schools like Ohio A&M it's a different story. And obviously, that's where these scandals are going to occur.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 6/8/2011 12:41 AM
My g7grandfather came to the Crown Colony of Maryland in 1664 as an indentured servant.  He had to work seven years to pay for his voyage to these shores and become a totally free man.  His living conditions were not comparable to those of a modern college student.  His work was much harder and back-braking than that of your typical college athlete.  He didn't get a college education out of the deal, either.  I really don't see the analogy being made here.  
Last Edited: 6/8/2011 12:43:19 AM by OhioCatFan
perimeterpost
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Posted: 6/8/2011 1:22 AM
Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more

Athletes (football) are barely given enough to cover their housing expenses off campus, and their meal plan is not nearly enough to feed them (especially my kid).   If they manage their funds closely they may have a little bit left over after housing expenses  to offset what is lacking on the meal plan.  These guys are not able to get a job due to school and training schedules.    It is no wonder these guys are tempted by the easy money.

I see alot on this board about how these guys are getting a "free" education.  Believe me, it is far from free.  These guys work their butts off.  Also to note that their scholarship is not "guaranteed" it is re-evaluated on a yearly basis.



+1. The "free" education thing is complete malarkey. They are indentured servants. In the case of TOSU the athletes bring in HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars per year for the university. In exchange they are excused from paying tuition and given a meager stipend for year-around grueling work. I think it is pretty obvious that this system has evolved such that it is no longer sustainable. I'm not sure how this can be done, but somehow the players have to be compensated for their efforts. Or, perhaps a NFL minor league is needed.


Indentured servants.   You don't mean that literally, do you?

I do think it accurate to say that most HS football players who deem themselves capable of playing college football lust for a scholarship - with their parents supporting such lust for very understandable reasons.

Stated otherwise, college scholarship athletes have knowingly made a choice: pay me in the form of a valuable scholarship and I will willingly work hard to keep that scholarship intact for the next 4 or 5 years. 

Many non-scholarship students who graduate with crushing debt loads likely would have made the same choice had they had requisite athletic ability. 


I have ZERO sympathy for scholarship athletes that don't think a free education is sufficient compensation for a few reasons-

Reason 1- I had to beg borrow and steel to pay for my tuition, and continued to pay for it fo it into my early 30s. That's not an insignificant reward for playing a game. 
Reason 2- Athletes aren't the only ones that work hard and put in long hours. I worked my ass off for my major, as we all did. That's what college is- committing everything you have to something you are passionate about.
Reason 3- I knew guys that marched in the 110, they worked just as hard, put in just as many hours, and represented the University just as well, and they have about 85 fewer scholarships to hand out compared to the football team.

If you want to get paid to play sports, don't go to college. problem solved.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/8/2011 9:00 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
To be frank, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue.  But those of you who suggest that nothing's wrong with the system and that the kids get a free education are not persuasive here.

You are assuming the system to be correct ('look it gives them a free $100k in the form of their education!').

Instead, try this.  Assume all the money that's involved (revenues, costs).  I assume that you end up with a pretty good chunk of profit.  Now, let the players somehow come to the table as a bargaining partner.  Would they get some more of the profit? 

So, if you let the kids bargain as fair partners, do you free marketers think that they might be getting more than they are now?

Seems to me that you're arguing from an assumption that what exists now has to exist.  Free yourself from that conclusion and see what you get.


And you're assuming the system to be broken. Your scenario leaves out one huge factor, and that's financial risk. A capitalist system doesn't pool all the profits and divide equally among all parties. You have to also factor skin in the game. The athletes are being paid to play via scholarship dollars. That money comes to them whether they win or lose, or even whether they play or don't play.

On the other hand, the "big money" boys put put a large financial risk on the table. At the same time, their financial gain is anything but guaranteed. They may make money; they may lose money. Is it any wonder then, that those same interests should reap the larger rewards?

You have to allow people to make money for taking risks. If you don't, then no one will take risks. Under that scenario, I wonder how many broadcasting outfits would be willing to televise MAC football?
cc-cat
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Posted: 6/8/2011 9:57 AM

I’m not sure the girl on the lacrosse team or the guy on the swim team would consider themselves indentured servants.  Nor do I see it applying to folks on the baseball or basketball team – even though the basketball players can make a pretty penny for the school.  The difference they (baseball, basketball) have is they can leave early if the pros will take them.  Football players don’t have that degree of “freedom.” 


Also, besides a college degree, a number of football players (especially at the larger schools), go to college in order to prepare and showcase their skills for the next level – though few will get there.  So while the school is making money off of them, a select few are benefitting greatly. 


That said, is one part of the solution allowing football payers more freedom in leaving? Marucs Lattimore at South Carolina may be the best running back in the country, but is “stuck” in Columbia for a few more years.  Why not allow him to move on? 

Increase the stipend for all athletes, but to me, the only ones being “disadvantaged” are the star football players that serve as the draw for their teams, but do not have the freedom to move to the next level.

Last Edited: 6/8/2011 10:00:01 AM by cc-cat
Bobcatzblitz
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:01 AM
These numbers are wayyyyy off LOL
Bobcat36
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Posted: 6/8/2011 10:49 AM
BattleCat wrote:expand_more
Looks like Pryor has a potential problem with the IRS, the real issue for the University will be did the powers that be know what was going on?

Also given the financial situation in Ohio, I wouldn't mind seeing the State collect their back taxes from this guy.


Considering the fact that they previously revoked his media credentials, I'd say it's safe to say they knew something was amiss...
The Situation
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Posted: 6/8/2011 11:05 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Seems to me that you're arguing from an assumption that what exists now has to exist.  Free yourself from that conclusion and see what you get.

What exists now has to exist or else it is every other non-revenue sport.


Why is that? Why is there no middle ground? The fact that we all spend so much time on the message board of a MAC football team is evidence enough that fans won't go away if the quality of play drops. I'm a fan because I enjoy watching football and LOVE my university. Regardless of any reforms, as long as Ohio fields a football team I'll be interested. I'm guessing that's true for most.


Don't you see, what we have now is the middle ground. This is equilibrium. When you disrupt equilibrium there is no saying what will happen. What is most likely is that it will not resemble what it was before.
BattleCat
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Posted: 6/8/2011 11:14 AM
How will schools like us pay increased stipends? or extra legal benefits?  This would only benefit the top schools and they probably have enough of an advantage to begin with.  Another thing and this will not be popular, but if you are going to pass out extra cash to football, be prepared to be legally required to do so for all sports.
OrlandoCat
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Posted: 6/8/2011 11:22 AM
cc cat wrote:expand_more

That said, is one part of the solution allowing football payers more freedom in leaving? Marucs Lattimore at South Carolina may be the best running back in the country, but is “stuck” in Columbia for a few more years.  Why not allow him to move on? 

Increase the stipend for all athletes, but to me, the only ones being “disadvantaged” are the star football players that serve as the draw for their teams, but do not have the freedom to move to the next level.



Football players can enter the draft after three years out of high school.  Furthermore, this point is moot since it's the NFL , not colleges, that have this rule set up.

If money is that big an issue, take out a student loan or two like the rest of us.
Paul Graham
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Posted: 6/8/2011 12:58 PM
As I said above, I'm speaking ONLY of big time college football players. These arguments certainly don't apply to other athletes.

perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
I have ZERO sympathy for scholarship athletes that don't think a free education is sufficient compensation for a few reasons-

Reason 1- I had to beg borrow and steel to pay for my tuition, and continued to pay for it fo it into my early 30s. That's not an insignificant reward for playing a game. 


Big time college football is not a game. When a school like OSU makes hundreds of millions of dollars from their football program, it ceases to be a game. When the coach makes more than a hedge fund manager, it ceases to be a game. And finally, when players are shot up with painkillers (like Toradol) before, during and after games to keep them on the field, it ceases to be a game.

The free education thing is nice, but not adequate payment for what is essentially a very physically and mentally demanding full-time job. Not to mention, when do they have time to study such that they make this free education worth it? During the season they must spend at least 40-50 hrs per week on football.

perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
Reason 2- Athletes aren't the only ones that work hard and put in long hours. I worked my ass off for my major, as we all did. That's what college is- committing everything you have to something you are passionate about.


I don't know about you, but a 100,000 people didn't show up to watch me pull all-nighters at Donkey Coffee. And unfortunately, no one showed up to Stocker wearing my jersey to root me on. And the results of my Algorithms exam didn't bring in millions of dollars for the University. And there was never a risk that if I were to strain my brain too much I might never write code again.


perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
If you want to get paid to play sports, don't go to college. problem solved.


Actually that is not the case. The minor league football system exists within colleges (for some odd reason). Therefore, if you expect to play in the NFL then you almost certainly must go to college.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/8/2011 1:11 PM
You're working hard to paint these student-athletes as victims. They are not. If they don't want to participate, they don't have to.
MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 6/8/2011 1:30 PM
79DAD wrote:expand_more

Athletes (football) are barely given enough to cover their housing expenses off campus, and their meal plan is not nearly enough to feed them (especially my kid).   If they manage their funds closely they may have a little bit left over after housing expenses  to offset what is lacking on the meal plan.  These guys are not able to get a job due to school and training schedules.    It is no wonder these guys are tempted by the easy money.

I see alot on this board about how these guys are getting a "free" education.  Believe me, it is far from free.  These guys work their butts off.  Also to note that their scholarship is not "guaranteed" it is re-evaluated on a yearly basis.



This shows 24 two bedroom apartments in the central campus area tOSU campus priced $600-$800.  

http://offcampus.osu.edu/search-housing.aspx?pricefrom=600&priceto=800&landlord=&bedrooms=2&bathrooms=&zipcode=&locations=3&subletonly=False

Revenue for living expenses mentioned on another thread: $12,000 or $16,000 if a player spends the summer.

Cost to attend OSU for a football player with one roommate:
Apartment: $4,800
Food:  $4,800
Fun:  $2,400
Transportation: $2,400
Paying for own tattoos: $1600
Total $16,000 coming in and $16,000 going out
No anxiety about where the next buck is coming from and no worry about paying the tuition on time.

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