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Topic: Where will the Ohio and the MAC be in five years? Intelligent, realistic input...please.
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cc-cat
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Posted: 10/28/2011 1:41 PM
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We all see what is happening re: conference movement.  Everyone is trying to solidify their standing.  WVU sees a declining Big East and Jumps to the Big 12.  Louisville tried, but lost out.  Temple is begging to get into the Big East (as would we if we had a prayer of it happening). 
 
So where does that leave Ohio and the MAC.  Don’t bother jumping into the discussion and pontificating how you think the MAC sucks and you knew this was going to happen, etc. etc.  etc.  I’m looking for intelligent, logical, realistic options and/or thoughts on where we will end up.  Not griping.  Don’t give me the we need to start getting Penn State and Alabama to Peden so we can build our schedule up - intelligent, logical, realistic input…please. 
 
I personally like the approach of the smaller conferences trying to pool together in an attempt to capture a single BCS path (has a ring to an old ESPN plan I once was told about).  Can the MAC get into such an alliance? I personally feel that basketball provides a better route to success (in every sense of that word) than football. Do we drop down a level in football and try to move to  a stronger b-ball conference?  Is anything gained from that?  I don't have answers, so how about some discussion.
 
Where will Ohio and the MAC be in five years?  Where could it realistically be in five years?
Last Edited: 10/28/2011 2:17:04 PM by cc-cat
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Posted: 10/28/2011 4:36 PM
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Ohio will be in the MAC with every current MAC member. I think UMass and Temple will bring basketball to the MAC by then.  The Big East is not gonna add Temple because of Villanova and UMass isn't gonna have enough impact to make the Big East want them either.  MAC budgets are small enough for schools to hang onto FBS football and feel they are still big time enough to pitch to alumni and students.  Big East look toward CUSA schools not the MAC.  SMU, Houston, UCF look in now with Memphis and ECU coming down the road.  Marshall, UAB and Southern Miss may end up there as well. CUSA Eastern schools merging with USF after ACC takes Rutgers and UConn.  Not sure why Boise State is even looking at BE. They don't fit .  

Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/28/2011 5:43 PM
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I too think we'll be in the MAC with most of the current teams and playing at the D 1 level.  The only thing that might change that is the emergence of 4 16 team super conferences in a division unto themselves in football.  In a sense we have that now with 120 D 1 football schools and 330+ D1 basketball schools.  With the $2000 per scholarship athlete provision that the NCAA just passed in place, economically marginal schools like OU and those in the MAC are going to be further removed from "big time football."
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Posted: 10/28/2011 6:12 PM
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oubobcatjohn wrote:expand_more

Ohio will be in the MAC with every current MAC member. I think UMass and Temple will bring basketball to the MAC by then.  The Big East is not gonna add Temple because of Villanova and UMass isn't gonna have enough impact to make the Big East want them either.  MAC budgets are small enough for schools to hang onto FBS football and feel they are still big time enough to pitch to alumni and students.  Big East look toward CUSA schools not the MAC.  SMU, Houston, UCF look in now with Memphis and ECU coming down the road.  Marshall, UAB and Southern Miss may end up there as well. CUSA Eastern schools merging with USF after ACC takes Rutgers and UConn.  Not sure why Boise State is even looking at BE. They don't fit .  



Bingo, save for the UMass/Temps for BB.  I just don't see that ever happening.  I hate to sound like a broken record, but I still believe the MAC needs to focus on improving it's product by adding two to four all sports teams, dumping FB only, and improving its on the field/court products, and not worry about what everyone else is doing.

If the MAC can produce a compelling product, it will survive without having to worry about what anyone else is doing.
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Posted: 10/28/2011 8:25 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
I too think we'll be in the MAC with most of the current teams and playing at the D 1 level.  The only thing that might change that is the emergence of 4 16 team super conferences in a division unto themselves in football.  In a sense we have that now with 120 D 1 football schools and 330+ D1 basketball schools.  With the $2000 per scholarship athlete provision that the NCAA just passed in place, economically marginal schools like OU and those in the MAC are going to be further removed from "big time football."


How do you figure that 4 super conferences of 16 teams is the emerging pattern? The only pattern I can see is that conferences are growing in conjunction with each successive round of TV contracts. Whenever the numbers stagnate for one of the BCS conferences they go out and add a couple new schools for a boost. In the end the tide is floating all boats. Locally every school has moved upward. WVU from the Big East to the Big XII. Cincinnati from CUSA to the Big East. Marshall from MAC to CUSA. UMass from the Colonial to the MAC. The conferences themselves are sliding upwards as time goes on. Even the MAC is richer than it was 10 years ago. There are situations where schools have sort of gone sideways like Boise State moving from the WAC to MWC or the former SWC schools moving to the WAC (at the time SWC-WAC was a pretty sideways move). The MAC is creeping up the ranks adding Temple and UMass for football and more bowl games. I'm not sure if the 2.000 scholarship requirement will turn out to be a negative in the long run. 
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Posted: 10/28/2011 8:46 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
I personally like the approach of the smaller conferences trying to pool together in an attempt to capture a single BCS path (has a ring to an old ESPN plan I once was told about).  Can the MAC get into such an alliance? I personally feel that basketball provides a better route to success (in every sense of that word) than football. Do we drop down a level in football and try to move to  a stronger b-ball conference?  Is anything gained from that?  I don't have answers, so how about some discussion.
 
Where will Ohio and the MAC be in five years?  Where could it realistically be in five years?


To be honest Ohio and the MAC can only go up. Another rule beside the 2,000 dollar cost of attendance expense check is that a school has to meet their APR scores if they want to play in a bowl game. BCS schools are losing scholarships to APR and the signing maximum was capped at 25 players per year. The minimum HS gpa requirement is planned to increase from 2.0 to 2.3 and JUCOs will need a 2.5 to transfer into an FBS program.  The MAC way of recruiting mostly serious student athletes will help. Schools in the MAC are starting to put more resources into men's basketball and with the reformatted tournament that will help to get a second school in the NCAAs. 
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:08 PM
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Oddly enough, I see the MAC's future hinging on the traditionally weaker football schools.  EMU, Buffalo, Akron and even Kent have been dragging the conference down for years.  For the MAC to thrive, these teams will need to become consistently better.  The improvement EMU and Buffalo are showing this season will have to continue, and Akron and Kent will need to get better.  The WAC and the MWC get the respect they do because, top to bottom, they're capable of beating an AQ school most any week.

Although I see the MAC still being a patchwork quilt of football-only schools for several years, I agree that it will need to look to football expansion with schools that join for b-ball as well.  I think it's often difficult for the fan base to recognize schools as rivals when they're in the league for only one sport.  To that end, I don't see any lateral moves (unless some school gets left out of migration from their current conference); instead, we may be looking at schools that are moving from 1AA to 1A and requiring them to come in for all sports.  Otherwise, the MAC will remain simply a waystop for schools looking to eventually join AQ conferences or whatever equivalent the future may bring.
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:33 PM
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I think that it is time to recognize that Ohio and the rest of the MAC have lost the "arms race" with the rest of the FBS schools and it is time to face reality and get out.  What we are seeing is a slow but sure progression towards a sytem where approximately 60 -70 AQS schools or AQS wannabes will eventually form their own super-division leaving the remaining conferences like the MAC and the Sun-Belt behind. 

The formation of this 64 school super division will leave 50 or so other schools on the outside looking in.  It makes no sense at all for the Ohios, Troy States and North Texases of the world to think that they can somehow come up with the money to compete with the schools in the super division.  All superb schools academically, but they are in small media markets and live in the shadow of gigantic football powers that absorb most of the fan attention in their respective states.  The money to try to sustain these programs at the highest level simply isn't there, and never will be.

So, what is to be done?  It seems to me that if the super powers are intent on forming their own super-division we should just let them go and then prevail on the NCAA to create a second "mid-major" (how I hate that term but I'm just trying to be realistic) division between the super-division and the FCS.  The schools that think they can hang in with the super division and compete at that level ought to be welcome to try.  Those that are able to face reality and are willing to relocate to the new mid-major division should be able to do so without financial penalty.  If there are any current FCS schools willing to make the move up, they should be able to do so as well.  It will take leadership from the conference commissioners and university presidents to make such a thing happen.

I know that one of the great objections to this idea will be that the schools in question will be giving up a large amount of TV revenue should they drop down to my proposed mid-major division.  But lets think about what is happening before our eyes right now.  Notre Dame has a virtual monopoly on NBC on Saturday afternoons.  The University of Texas created its own sports network, as has the Big Ten (or 11 or 12 or whatever they are now).  The really lucrative Bowl contracts go to those dominated by the AQS schools.  Everything else is just sops thrown to the have-nots.

But lets look at what else is going on.  Texas's network is going nowhere fast.  I watch more sports over the internet now than I do on TV.  I think this is important as more and more people are foregoing cable and satellite TV in favor of the web.  Just how much longer do we really think that the media companies are going to be willing to throw enormous amounts of money at the top-tier FBS programs for the over the air rights to broadcast their games?  I think that one of the main goals of any mid-major division would be to develop a serious web-based presence and de-emphasize the traditional television based model.  I really think this is the wave of the future and should be given serious thought.

I think that such a move would allow the mid-major division schools to cut back on football scholarships to a more manageable and sustainable number, perhaps 72.  It would eliminate the need to spend millions on stadium upgrades that are totally unnecessary given the average attendance at the institutions under discussion.  It would also allow the member universities to re-focus on their core mission, that is, to promote scholarship and research, while maintaining the beneficial effects that inter-collegiate sports have on campus life and school spirit.

I would think it imperative that any such mid-major division would institute a playoff format for determining its national champion.  I think that this alone would generate a tremendous amount of interest among sports fans and make the end of season tournament very attractive to the media, the broadcast rights to which could raise quite a pretty penny. 

Given that I think that the super division schools are spending themselves into oblivion it is only sensible for Ohio and the rest of the MAC to seriously consider such a bold move.  It is right, it is smart and it will keeps our beloved Bobcat football team on the field for a long time to come.
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:36 PM
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Pataskala wrote:expand_more
Oddly enough, I see the MAC's future hinging on the traditionally weaker football schools.  EMU, Buffalo, Akron and even Kent have been dragging the conference down for years.  For the MAC to thrive, these teams will need to become consistently better.  The improvement EMU and Buffalo are showing this season will have to continue, and Akron and Kent will need to get better.  The WAC and the MWC get the respect they do because, top to bottom, they're capable of beating an AQ school most any week.


That was the case in years past where median of the WAC and MWC were stronger. I don't think its the case very much any more. The WAC is rated lower than the MAC this season top to bottom and it even has a few good programs left in it yet. If you take Boise and TCU out of the MWC its rated below the MAC. You've had teams step up form the bottom half of the MAC and win against the BCS in the last 4-5 years. Toledo was 3-8 the season they beat Michigan. One of the issues in the MAC is over scheduling by those weaker teams. Why is Kent State playing Ohio State and Alabama in the same season? Why is EMU playing Michigan and Penn State? MAC programs in the lower tier take 30-40 point losses in those games and make the league look bad. They should be the ones playing a money game at Rutgers or Minnesota, not us.
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:45 PM
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I have previously suggested that the type of plan suggested by Zaleski could be an answer for Ohio and other MAC schools, along with most of the WAC, Sun Belt and part of the current CUSA.  Such a new division would also include the top leagues of the current FCS (I-AA).  There might be close to 80-100 teams in this new division.  As Zaleski said, there would be a playoff to determine a national champion.  
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Posted: 10/28/2011 9:59 PM
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Zaleski wrote:expand_more
The formation of this 64 school super division will leave 50 or so other schools on the outside looking in.  It makes no sense at all for the Ohios, Troy States and North Texases of the world to think that they can somehow come up with the money to compete with the schools in the super division.  All superb schools academically, but they are in small media markets and live in the shadow of gigantic football powers that absorb most of the fan attention in their respective states.  The money to try to sustain these programs at the highest level simply isn't there, and never will be.

So, what is to be done?  It seems to me that if the super powers are intent on forming their own super-division we should just let them go and then prevail on the NCAA to create a second "mid-major" (how I hate that term but I'm just trying to be realistic) division between the super-division and the FCS.  The schools that think they can hang in with the super division and compete at that level ought to be welcome to try.  Those that are able to face reality and are willing to relocate to the new mid-major division should be able to do so without financial penalty.  If there are any current FCS schools willing to make the move up, they should be able to do so as well.  It will take leadership from the conference commissioners and university presidents to make such a thing happen.


That sounds like a really stupid idea. There no point and there has never been a serious discussion among athletic leaders to form a third division in between FCS and FBS. If the SEC (14), ACC (14), Big Ten (12), PAC-12 (12). Big XII (10), Big East (12) which total 74 schools decide to leave and form their own division, the remaining 48 schools drop down to FCS where its 65 scholarships max. You move those 48 schools down to FCS and with the 126 teams already in that subdivision you a nice 176 school level to draw playoff teams from. Some of those conferences don't participate in the playoffs but the would be 120 teams to work with. That makes a ton more sense than trying to add a level in between that is 72 scholarships with 48 from the non-BCS and 16 of the biggest FCS powers. Why would the FCS powers want to move up for it? It simply does not make any sense and its only suggested on here as an notional idea without any economic understanding behind it. I do agree there is something to be said for the low level FBS programs being close to the top level FCS programs in strength but to put them together in the same level and roll with it isn't happening.
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Posted: 10/28/2011 10:15 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I have previously suggested that the type of plan suggested by Zaleski could be an answer for Ohio and other MAC schools, along with most of the WAC, Sun Belt and part of the current CUSA.  Such a new division would also include the top leagues of the current FCS (I-AA).  There might be close to 80-100 teams in this new division.  As Zaleski said, there would be a playoff to determine a national champion.  


Take a look at the numbers on this. Once the Big East is done reloading to 12 their will be approximately 74 schools in BCS conferences. I'll figure schools in the MWC and CUSA combo once its said and done will total 20 and have enough markets to get invited to the top level. That will leave 28 non-AQ schools behind (mostly MAC/SBC). Why would it make sense for 50-70 schools from FCS to leave their division to join up with 28 non-AQ schools in a new division? That is not going to happen. The MAC and SBC schools will just move down to FCS. The whole conversation is moot because the BCS schools are not breaking away to form their own division. They already did that with the D1-A/D1-AA split 30 years ago. The BCS conferences view the MAC and SBC not as threats but as entry level conferences. The BCS conferences already have 95% of the money and its not worth squeezing out the non-AQs for the last 5%.
Last Edited: 10/28/2011 10:16:35 PM by Athens
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Posted: 10/28/2011 10:41 PM
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I think that the last two comments ignore the issue of economic sustainability.  How many of those schools that decide to make a go of it in the super division might eventually decide that it isn't worth the expense and move down?
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Posted: 10/28/2011 11:09 PM
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Zaleski wrote:expand_more
I think that the last two comments ignore the issue of economic sustainability.  How many of those schools that decide to make a go of it in the super division might eventually decide that it isn't worth the expense and move down?


That is a different angle all together. Let's say the 48 non-AQ's move down and then out of the 74 BCS schools another 20 decide to bow out, mostly lower Big East and ACC type schools. That would totally reshape the conferences entirely. That is yet another reason why the super division won't happen because the smaller BCS schools will get smashed.

If I had to put odds on it there is a 99% chance the divisions stay about the same, 1% chance of a super division, and a .01% chance of they mythical third division forming comprised of the MAC/SBC and 6-8 top level FCS conferences. 
First Street Forever
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Posted: 10/29/2011 2:19 AM
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Zaleski wrote:expand_more
I would think it imperative that any such mid-major division would institute a playoff format for determining its national champion.  I think that this alone would generate a tremendous amount of interest among sports fans and make the end of season tournament very attractive to the media, the broadcast rights to which could raise quite a pretty penny. 


Kinda like how the NIT generates a tremendous amount of interest for collegiate basketball...

Will the excitement equal the wave of euphoria that sweeps over the nation during the D1-AA playoffs?
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Posted: 10/29/2011 11:29 AM
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If such a playoff system generated as much interest or a little more than the current I-AA playoffs, I'd be happy with that.  No euphoria needed.  There is a decent amount of interest in the I-AA playoffs.  

Comparing something like this proposal to the NIT is apples/oranges.  This would be for a national title in a different division altogether.  The NIT is a consolation tournament for Div. I.  
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Posted: 10/29/2011 9:12 PM
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This mid-level FBS subdivision ain't happening so I'm not wasting my time talking about it.
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Posted: 10/30/2011 6:55 AM
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+1 - What OCF says.
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Posted: 10/30/2011 8:16 AM
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Had an interesting conversation with a friend from California Saturday evening concerning a story in the LA Times about the PAC Whatever It Is. The story dealt with the money drain football is and the coming "savior": a big fat TV contract.  The day will come when the "media bubble" bursts for "academic institutions" scrambling to align for no other reason than $$$.

For the sake of protecting a "brand," these conferences already have flunked math. They can't count beyound the frigging fingers on their hands. They also are flunking geography (and, BTW, when the hell did Massachusetts and eastern Pennsylvania migrate to "mid-America" ... unless OUr Mid-American refers to a position above abject poverty but below affluence(?)

Somewhere along the line, common sense and relationships got sold out for The Almighty Dollar. Having grown up in western Pennsylvania at a time when Pitt, Penn State and West Virginia were all on the menu of one another, I remember the wonderfulness of those regional rivalries. Gone ... or probably so.

Even here at BA.com, there are comments exuding little sensitivity or thought about similar "backyard brawls." I find self-absorption way too prevalent: It's all about ME.

The depiction of EMU as one of the weaker teams is steeped in (you choose which): [1] lack of research; [2] lack of common sense; or [3] amnesia.

At one of the many times when OUr program was stinking worse than the air around the Brunswick, Ga., paper mills, Eastern Michigan saved the singular bowl alliance the MAC enjoyed (California Bowl). And even this year, if there is a "Michigan Cup" among the three MAC teams in the state, EMU would claim it. 

Winners become losers, losers become winners, and there truly are few constants beyond So Say Us All ... right?

I have had the opportunity to observe and professionally cover sports at every level, and I have to tell you, there's nothing magical about being the biggest. And there's nothing inherently wrong with being the smallest.
Last Edited: 10/30/2011 8:25:45 AM by Cat4ever
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Posted: 10/30/2011 9:45 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
This mid-level FBS subdivision ain't happening so I'm not wasting my time talking about it.


Hmmm... this type of thinking seems awfully familiar...


"Imperium Romanum regnabit in saecula. Nolo perdere tempus."
- OhioCattusFanaticus


"This so called colonist revolution tis not happening and I shant waste another moment worrying about it."
- CatFanofHarvarduponHockingIII 


"Ain't no Yankee gonna tell me who gonna be or ain't gonna be no slave so quit yer yapping as I ain't gonna waste another dang minute worrying about it. The South will prevail! The Confederacy forever!"
- OhioPolecatFancier


"The Germans? They seem like swell, industrious chaps who play by the rules so I'm not wasting my time worrying about it."
- BoogieWoogieCatFan


"This ragtag group of rebel scum poses no chance at defeating us, so I'm not wasting my time talking about it."
- DarthCatFan
Last Edited: 10/30/2011 9:57:31 AM by First Street Forever
Athens
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Posted: 10/30/2011 8:21 PM
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Cat4ever wrote:expand_more
For the sake of protecting a "brand," these conferences already have flunked math. They can't count beyound the frigging fingers on their hands. They also are flunking geography (and, BTW, when the hell did Massachusetts and eastern Pennsylvania migrate to "mid-America" ... unless OUr Mid-American refers to a position above abject poverty but below affluence(?)


The name Mid American is very general. Its like Conference USA or the Sun Belt. There is North American, South American and then Mid American? Sun Belt could refer to the Earth and any planet in the universe in the habitable zone. WAC is the same thing as "sucks" in the hip hop lexicon. That said I do think the MAC has a brand of small college town atmosphere that is eroding with such an urban school like Temple in the conference.
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Posted: 10/30/2011 8:56 PM
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Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
For the sake of protecting a "brand," these conferences already have flunked math. They can't count beyound the frigging fingers on their hands. They also are flunking geography (and, BTW, when the hell did Massachusetts and eastern Pennsylvania migrate to "mid-America" ... unless OUr Mid-American refers to a position above abject poverty but below affluence(?)


The name Mid American is very general. Its like Conference USA or the Sun Belt. There is North American, South American and then Mid American? Sun Belt could refer to the Earth and any planet in the universe in the habitable zone. WAC is the same thing as "sucks" in the hip hop lexicon. That said I do think the MAC has a brand of small college town atmosphere that is eroding with such an urban school like Temple in the conference.


Wes, you need to get over yourself.  You have clearly surpassed the four most historically pompous posters on this board in no particular order - Love, OCF, Monroe and yours truly.  MAC is precisely that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States

As for Temple and UMass, ask 100 people on the street who the members of the MAC are and 1 in 10 might mention these two.  Please my good man, come down off of your lofty perch.
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Posted: 10/30/2011 9:24 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
For the sake of protecting a "brand," these conferences already have flunked math. They can't count beyound the frigging fingers on their hands. They also are flunking geography (and, BTW, when the hell did Massachusetts and eastern Pennsylvania migrate to "mid-America" ... unless OUr Mid-American refers to a position above abject poverty but below affluence(?)


The name Mid American is very general. Its like Conference USA or the Sun Belt. There is North American, South American and then Mid American? Sun Belt could refer to the Earth and any planet in the universe in the habitable zone. WAC is the same thing as "sucks" in the hip hop lexicon. That said I do think the MAC has a brand of small college town atmosphere that is eroding with such an urban school like Temple in the conference.


Wes, you need to get over yourself.  You have clearly surpassed the four most historically pompous posters on this board in no particular order - Love, OCF, Monroe and yours truly.  MAC is precisely that - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midwestern_United_States

As for Temple and UMass, ask 100 people on the street who the members of the MAC are and 1 in 10 might mention these two.  Please my good man, come down off of your lofty perch.


Alan some thing Mid America, Middle America is anything between the East and West coast. Middle America living that is family oriented with affordable housing and traditional values. The average person walking down the street doesn't even know Ohio is in the MAC. I had a Central Michigan grad albeit an older grad talk about he couldn't believe how many times CMU was on ESPN a couple years back and when I told them Ohio was in the MAC he asked me when did they join? When did Ohio U. join the MAC? Its like oh Syracuse is in the Big East when did that happen.
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Posted: 10/31/2011 12:13 AM
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FSF,  That was funny stuff.  I'll at least give you for humor!
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Posted: 10/31/2011 3:24 PM
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Thanks for all the thoughts.

Perhaps we take a page out of the Big East book and form and alliance with Conference USA, Mountain West and WAC and have our conference champions play each other at the end of the season (hosted by higher seed) - two games later we have a strong(er) representative for BCS or playoffs.  Could also use the alliance to facilitate a stronger OOC schedule (maybe take a lead from the NFL and have the higher placing teams play the other conferences' higher placed teams the following year - ones play ones, twos play twos, etc.).  Alliance could also help B-ball scheduling.
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