Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Professor Vedder is Back
Page: 2 of 3
bobcat72
General User
B72
Member Since: 7/2/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 540
person
mail
bobcat72
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 6:51 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more

As for the post above yours, I think a rational basis for athletic subsidies (and I'm off the cuff here) would be say no more than 25% of the athletic department's budget (currently 77% at Ohio) and no more than 1% of the university's budget (currently 2.8% or 3.4% based upon whether one looks at the university's overall budget or just that for main campus).  


So you're advocating low Division 3 or NAIA? Sounds realistic...
OUPride
General User
OUP
Member Since: 9/21/2010
Post Count: 578
person
mail
OUPride
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 7:04 PM
bobcat72 wrote:expand_more

As for the post above yours, I think a rational basis for athletic subsidies (and I'm off the cuff here) would be say no more than 25% of the athletic department's budget (currently 77% at Ohio) and no more than 1% of the university's budget (currently 2.8% or 3.4% based upon whether one looks at the university's overall budget or just that for main campus).  


So you're advocating low Division 3 or NAIA? Sounds realistic...

Given our budgetary considerations, it's all that's realistic.  Either the athletic department needs to find new sources of revenue independent of academics and students or it needs to reevaluate its goals.

 
bobcat72
General User
B72
Member Since: 7/2/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 540
person
mail
bobcat72
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 7:39 PM
So, extrapolating this, you're advocating that all MAC schools drop to D3 or NAIA. As well as all non-BCS schools. Am I correct?

If so, do you really expect us to take you seriously? In your world, only Ohio State, Texas and Florida are left to play amongst themselves.

I think most reasonable, rational people would see this is a very extreme viewpoint.

For what it's worth, this is a time of budget surplus at OU. Times are good. Departments are expanding, positions are being added...the cash is flowing. We're not BGSU here cutting 200 faculty jobs.
L.C.
General User
LC
Member Since: 9/1/2005
Post Count: 10,584
person
mail
L.C.
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 9:31 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
...Again, I became involved in this debate in response to posts that were stating we were attracting much better students that before our recent athletic success and that those (illusory) gains were somehow linked to athletics.

I, too, am skeptical on any short-term relationship between athletic success and applications. I just don't think its a big priority for kids looking at colleges to go to, in most cases. On the other hand, I do think that it is quite plausible that Athletic success helps lead to a closer tie to alumni, and thus to more alumni giving, as well as to more giving from non-alumni. That was why I looked at the relationship between schools with FBS football teams and endowment growth (which reflects giving).

 Do you have any comments on the facts that I posted in another thread that shows that schools with Athletic success are showing about 2% a year higher Endowment growth than schools that do not have FBS football teams? This was not based on Ohio itself, though Ohio was one of the schools with higher endowment growth as well as Athletic success. If Athletic success is boosting Ohio's endowment growth by 2% a year, that means it is leading to perhaps $10m in extra giving a year, a pretty substantial number, though not enough to offset the subsidies.

To me the endowment is the best overall reflection of the health of an institution. With a healthy endowment, a school can fund endowed faculty chairs, scholarships, building programs, etc, and without they are much more dependent on tuition, and on annual giving. Thus, to me, the 12% a year endowment growth Ohio has had in recent years assures that the well is not dry, and the future is bright.  If you want to argue that the growth is unrelated to Athletic success, fine, but with the endowment growing, it seems hard to argue that the situation for the University is grim. If Ohio can maintain double digit endowment growth for another 6-7 years, they will be approaching the 1B endowment  that would put them among the elite Universities in America.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 9:49 PM
bobcat72 wrote:expand_more
So, extrapolating this, you're advocating that all MAC schools drop to D3 or NAIA. As well as all non-BCS schools. Am I correct?


I think more and more the American post-secondary system would be best served by dropping sports altogether.
L.C.
General User
LC
Member Since: 9/1/2005
Post Count: 10,584
person
mail
L.C.
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 10:16 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I think more and more the American post-secondary system would be best served by dropping sports altogether.

I understand your point. There is absolutely no logical connection between sports as a business and learning (except if you are involved in the Sports Management program, or some similar degree track).  Its odd that College sports has evolved the way it has. Interestingly professional sports evolved the same way, starting with companies playing games between themselves, and then hiring "ringers". Ultimately the professional teams were spun off as separate entities, unrelated to the original businesses, which was only logical, since it was a fiction that the "Green Bay Packers" actually worked for the packing company, for example. That is probably what needs to happen to College level sports, too - the teams should be spun off as businesses.

That said, I'd go the other way from your suggestion entirely. I think Sports are a key part of the College experience. Rather than dropping all sports, I think participation in sports of some type should be required at all times by all students. I believe that a healthy body and a healthy mind are related. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be playing football, just that there should be a wide variety of spots available at the club and/or intermural level, and that all students should be required to participate in some type of sports, at some level that matches their individual ability. My high school did that, and I see no reason it can't be done at the college level, too.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 12/29/2013 10:40 PM
I should have clarified. I did not mean for club or intramural sports to go, but getting out of the business of sport would probably be best for all.
Bcat2
General User
B2
Member Since: 7/6/2010
Post Count: 4,295
person
mail
Bcat2
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 7:18 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I think more and more the American post-secondary system would be best served by dropping sports altogether.

I understand your point. There is absolutely no logical connection between sports as a business and learning (except if you are involved in the Sports Management program, or some similar degree track). Its odd that College sports has evolved the way it has. Interestingly professional sports evolved the same way, starting with companies playing games between themselves, and then hiring "ringers". Ultimately the professional teams were spun off as separate entities, unrelated to the original businesses, which was only logical, since it was a fiction that the "Green Bay Packers" actually worked for the packing company, for example. That is probably what needs to happen to College level sports, too - the teams should be spun off as businesses.

That said, I'd go the other way from your suggestion entirely. I think Sports are a key part of the College experience. Rather than dropping all sports, I think participation in sports of some type should be required at all times by all students. I believe that a healthy body and a healthy mind are related. I'm not saying that everyone needs to be playing football, just that there should be a wide variety of spots available at the club and/or intermural level, and that all students should be required to participate in some type of sports, at some level that matches their individual ability. My high school did that, and I see no reason it can't be done at the college level, too.
There are some fine models for success at all levels that demonstrate that if you build it ("excellence, pride") they will come. Name another reason anyone would go to West Point, where, by the way, participation in competitive sport is expected? Stanford, huge endowment and a destination school for the good to great minds who also just happen to be gifted athletically. Lindenwood University has ten National Championships in a row. http://gardenandgun.com/article/straight-shooters-lindenw...
Tell me why else would anyone have heard of "Cornhuskers?"
colobobcat66
General User
C66
Member Since: 9/1/2006
Location: Watching the bobcats run outside my window., CO
Post Count: 4,744
person
mail
colobobcat66
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 9:19 AM
The fact that there has been college sport before there was the business of sport that we see now, would seem to indicate some value to the college experience. We just need to find a little more balance perhaps. I'm not sure that 1-2 percent of total budget wouldn't be about right.

It also seems to me that the anti-sports people give no value to the education that the 600 or so athletes receive at Ohio. It's not like that money is just being thrown away.
Last Edited: 12/30/2013 9:20:28 AM by colobobcat66
Ozcat
General User
Member Since: 1/4/2005
Location: Gahanna, OH
Post Count: 820
mail
Ozcat
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 3:03 PM
At the end of the day I take great solace in knowing that Dr. Vedder can waste his time writing another dozen op-eds, and when I wake up tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, and in decades to come, that I'll have Bobcat football and basketball to look forward to.
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 3:27 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
The fact that there has been college sport before there was the business of sport that we see now, would seem to indicate some value to the college experience. We just need to find a little more balance perhaps. I'm not sure that 1-2 percent of total budget wouldn't be about right.


More than a little, I'd say. It's not a question of what percentage of a budget but priorities. Some schools really can't afford athletics at all yet they maintain them. Some schools get so far into athletics it messes with the power structure (see Gee's infamous "I hope he doesn't fire me" comment). Most schools bend academic requirements to get better athletes. That's contrary to what colleges should aspire to be. Some student-athletes get second, third, and fourth chances others would not because they happen to be good at a sport. It's unjust. I find it embarrassing the highest-paid public employee in most states is a football or basketball coach. If you show that map to a non-American, they laugh at it. It makes us look bad because it says we value sports over everything else.
Robert Fox
General User
RF
Member Since: 11/17/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039
person
mail
Robert Fox
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 4:01 PM
I agree with some of that, but you can't simply remove sports from the equation and expect all other characteristics of a university to remain unchanged. You also can't say that because coaches earn more money, then our society values them over other things like health, education, etc. There's a disconnect with reality there.

So then the pertinent question is this: What total impact on the university does dropping sports create?
C Money
General User
Member Since: 8/28/2010
Post Count: 3,420
mail
C Money
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 4:10 PM
Ozcat wrote:expand_more
At the end of the day I take great solace in knowing that Dr. Vedder can waste his time writing another dozen op-eds, and when I wake up tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, and in decades to come, that I'll have Bobcat football and basketball to look forward to.


He's paid for it, so it's not like he's really WASTING his time. That being said, I have a feeling that if the other side of the debate cut a big enough check, Vedder would find Jesus and explain exactly why sports in higher ed are critical to the mission of universities and really the fabric of the entire nation.
Ozcat
General User
Member Since: 1/4/2005
Location: Gahanna, OH
Post Count: 820
mail
Ozcat
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 4:12 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I find it embarrassing the highest-paid public employee in most states is a football or basketball coach. If you show that map to a non-American, they laugh at it. It makes us look bad because it says we value sports over everything else.

I've seen this graphic on Facebook, and I find it to be misleading, at best.  But I understand part of the overall argument.

In almost every instance of the basketball or football coach being the highest paid public employee, they are in charge of programs that are wildly successful, at least financially.  Those individuals salaries are hardly a detriment to their respective institutions overall budgets.  It is typically the smaller programs who are attempting to keep up in the arms race who are damaging budgets.
Last Edited: 12/30/2013 4:14:12 PM by Ozcat
JSF
General User
Member Since: 1/29/2005
Location: Houston, TX
Post Count: 6,580
mail
JSF
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 9:37 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
You also can't say that because coaches earn more money, then our society values them over other things like health, education, etc. There's a disconnect with reality there.


You actually can say that. Perception is reality, right?
Alan Swank
General User
AS
Member Since: 12/12/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,375
person
mail
Alan Swank
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 9:41 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
You also can't say that because coaches earn more money, then our society values them over other things like health, education, etc. There's a disconnect with reality there.


You actually can say that. Perception is reality, right?


I was heard a very famous person say, when recounting a conversation he had had with his father about business - "show me your budget and I'll tell you what you value."

We may say we value something such as early childhood education but budget numbers don't lie.
catfan28
General User
C28
Member Since: 6/11/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,503
person
mail
catfan28
mail
Posted: 12/30/2013 10:11 PM
In other news, Professor Vedder was at the basketball game tonight! (Gasp) Supporting the evils of athletic competition and all that it stands for.

Hypocrisy at its finest...
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User
BLSS
Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 4,655
person
mail
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 9:48 AM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
In other news, Professor Vedder was at the basketball game tonight! (Gasp) Supporting the evils of athletic competition and all that it stands for.

Hypocrisy at its finest...


You might want to read his article again.
Recovering Journalist
General User
RJ
Member Since: 8/17/2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Post Count: 1,864
person
mail
Recovering Journalist
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 9:55 AM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
In other news, Professor Vedder was at the basketball game tonight! (Gasp) Supporting the evils of athletic competition and all that it stands for.

Hypocrisy at its finest...

I don't generally agree with Vedder, but I don't see attending a game as hypocritical. I don't think Vedder's ever said he hates basketball or the Bobcats. 

I go to Indians games even though it disgusts me that the stadium was completely paid for by county taxpayers who get none of the profit and all of the ongoing liability of the ballpark. Thousands of people attend pro football games yet find the NFL's tax-free status and blackmailing of municipalities abhorrent. You can be a fan of the game without being a fan of the business of the game.
Robert Fox
General User
RF
Member Since: 11/17/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
Post Count: 2,039
person
mail
Robert Fox
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 10:14 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
You also can't say that because coaches earn more money, then our society values them over other things like health, education, etc. There's a disconnect with reality there.


You actually can say that. Perception is reality, right?


I was heard a very famous person say, when recounting a conversation he had had with his father about business - "show me your budget and I'll tell you what you value."

We may say we value something such as early childhood education but budget numbers don't lie.


That's the problem. One man's budget is probably a better measure of values than the macro-economic effect of a society's budget. In that personal budget, we are in direct control of that allocation of money, at least to a large degree. Not so with a society's budget. You and I have virtually no control over how the bulk of that money is spent, and yet you want to label us with having certain "values"?

Let me begin my list of wildly popular items for which I have NO value:
Miley Cyrus
Lady Gaga
Anthony Wiener
Candy Crush Saga
Angry Birds
The Macarana
The Beastie Boys
Adam Ant
The Dallas Cowboys
Dennis Rodman
Lane Kiffin
Wayne Newton
Tom Jones
Simon Cowell
All Reality Television
Marilyn Manson
The entire cast of Jersey Shore
Sportscaster cliches
Starbucks
The AMC Pacer
The Pontiac Aztek
Uggs
Crocs
Most Geico commercials
catfan28
General User
C28
Member Since: 6/11/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,503
person
mail
catfan28
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 11:16 AM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
I don't generally agree with Vedder, but I don't see attending a game as hypocritical. I don't think Vedder's ever said he hates basketball or the Bobcats. 

I go to Indians games even though it disgusts me that the stadium was completely paid for by county taxpayers who get none of the profit and all of the ongoing liability of the ballpark. Thousands of people attend pro football games yet find the NFL's tax-free status and blackmailing of municipalities abhorrent. You can be a fan of the game without being a fan of the business of the game.


Well, the article indicates that he is against the concept of college athletics. He was at a college athletic event. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

And I think there's a difference between publicly coming out against something (for a profit, I might add)...and your personal belief about the Indians. Vedder has made a living out of vilifying college sports (among other aspects of so-called university "excess").
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User
BLSS
Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 4,655
person
mail
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 12:21 PM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
I don't generally agree with Vedder, but I don't see attending a game as hypocritical. I don't think Vedder's ever said he hates basketball or the Bobcats. 

I go to Indians games even though it disgusts me that the stadium was completely paid for by county taxpayers who get none of the profit and all of the ongoing liability of the ballpark. Thousands of people attend pro football games yet find the NFL's tax-free status and blackmailing of municipalities abhorrent. You can be a fan of the game without being a fan of the business of the game.


Well, the article indicates that he is against the concept of college athletics. He was at a college athletic event. That seems a bit hypocritical to me.

And I think there's a difference between publicly coming out against something (for a profit, I might add)...and your personal belief about the Indians. Vedder has made a living out of vilifying college sports (among other aspects of so-called university "excess").


Can you quote the part of the article where he says that, please?
catfan28
General User
C28
Member Since: 6/11/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,503
person
mail
catfan28
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 1:20 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Can you quote the part of the article where he says that, please?


Yes, the whole thing. Did you even read it? It's the entire spirit of the article. He sees it as a wastefully extravagant use of funds.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
General User
BLSS
Member Since: 7/30/2010
Post Count: 4,655
person
mail
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 1:30 PM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
Can you quote the part of the article where he says that, please?


Yes, the whole thing. Did you even read it? It's the entire spirit of the article. He sees it as a wastefully extravagant use of funds.


He sees exorbitant spending on college athletics as a mistake that's ultimately harmful to many universities. That is not at all the same thing as saying he's "against the concept of college athletics." Not even a little bit.
Last Edited: 12/31/2013 1:31:12 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
catfan28
General User
C28
Member Since: 6/11/2011
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 1,503
person
mail
catfan28
mail
Posted: 12/31/2013 1:37 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Can you quote the part of the article where he says that, please?


Yes, the whole thing. Did you even read it? It's the entire spirit of the article. He sees it as a wastefully extravagant use of funds.


He sees exorbitant spending on college athletics as a mistake that's ultimately harmful to many universities. That is not at all the same thing as saying he's "against the concept of college athletics." Not even a little bit.


Saying it's harmful to universities isn't the same thing as saying he disagrees with it? It's the exact same thing. Generally I'm not supportive of things I view as harmful.
Showing Messages: 26 - 50 of 54
MAC News Links



extra small (< 576px)
small (>= 576px)
medium (>= 768px)
large (>= 992px)
x-large (>= 1200px)
xx-large (>= 1400px)