Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Professor Vedder is Back
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MonroeClassmate
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Posted: 12/28/2013 8:39 PM
 
Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and Vedder is right about this.

There's a lot of things that I disagree with Vedder about.  He and the people who prop him up financially essentially want to do away with public higher education entirely--no student aid/loans, no federally funded research and so on.  For the wealthy, there would still be private universities......so long as you can pay for them out of pocket.  In his Brave New World, there would be in-house corporate training for the rest of us plebes.

The sly thing about Vedder is that he essentially follows the PETA path in how he goes about it.  PETA is very clever about focusing on certain issues that gain popular support (pink slime hamburgers, factory farming abuses, fur, puppy mills, genetically modified poultry and so on) as a means of gaining funding for a long-game agenda that most Americans would be repulsed by (no leather, no pets, government enforced veganism and so on). 

Vedder and his "think tank" follow essentially the same script.  They front with reasonable issues that most Americans are concerned with (spiraling tuition costs, administrative bloat, athletic subsidies) to further an agenda that most Americans would strongly oppose (doing away with state universities, no student aid/loans etc.)
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Posted: 12/28/2013 11:51 PM
Darn good post, Pride.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 10:44 AM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
PETA is very clever about focusing on certain issues that gain popular support (pink slime hamburgers, factory farming abuses, fur, puppy mills, genetically modified poultry and so on) as a means of gaining funding for a long-game agenda that most Americans would be repulsed by (no leather, no pets, government enforced veganism and so on).
No pets? Govt. enforced veganism? Alex Jones, is that you?
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Posted: 12/29/2013 11:45 AM
Why he even mentions Ohio University in that article is beyond me. Really? There's so many other schools that are wastefully extravagant with athletics spending. We are not one of them. We're doing things the "right way" IMO. The BCS-level schools (like the one 75 miles up the road) are the ones with messed up priorities. He should vilify them, not us.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 11:59 AM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
Why he even mentions Ohio University in that article is beyond me. Really? There's so many other schools that are wastefully extravagant with athletics spending. We are not one of them. We're doing things the "right way" IMO. The BCS-level schools (like the one 75 miles up the road) are the ones with messed up priorities. He should vilify them, not us.



How can you say that we're doing things the right way when we have to subsidize the athletic department with millions of dollars every year.  At the same time, between 2005 and 2011, we've gone from academic spending that was above the MAC and FBS median to slipping below both.  Athletic spending went up over 100% during that time--funded by subsidies--while academic spending went up only 8%, which if you adjust for inflation is actually a net decline.

Where is the benefit to these tens of millions of dollars dumped into the athletic department over the last eight years?  Some say we're attracting better students because of it, but I've shown you that our freshman class profiles have been essentially stagnant since 2005.  Others say that we've attracted more applicants.  Applications are up, but so are Ohio high school graduates as those increases coincide directly with the peak of the baby boom "echo" graduating from high school.  What do you think is driving those applications?  A clearly defined and proven demographic trend or a highly debatable and suspect "Flutie effect?"

Say what you want about the school up the road, but that monstrosity of an athletic department funds itself and doesn't drain money either from the academic side of the university budget or from the students in the form of direct fees.
 
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Posted: 12/29/2013 12:00 PM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
Why he even mentions Ohio University in that article is beyond me. Really? There's so many other schools that are wastefully extravagant with athletics spending. We are not one of them. We're doing things the "right way" IMO. The BCS-level schools (like the one 75 miles up the road) are the ones with messed up priorities. He should vilify them, not us.


I don't think the amount of money is his issue. it's where it comes from.  I'm the last person to defend cowtown and their athletic extravagance, but they are at least self-sufficient and don't rely on the student body to have athletics exist.  They probably make more in sweatshirts every year than we do in ticket sales.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 12:08 PM
I honestly don't care where the money comes from. EVERYONE at this level uses student fees to help fund athletics. We're not unique. It's just reality. Miami, Marshall, Fresno State, Wyoming, Arkansas State...you name it. Every school in a similar place on the college athletics "landscape" has to use student fees.

As a percentage of the university budget, athletics is around 2% at Ohio University. If that's not keeping things in perspective, I don't know what is. Do you think that athletics is more than 2% of the fabric of this campus or the university culture? I'd argue that it is. If anything, perhaps it should be funded more.

For the Ohio State's of the world, it's about opportunity cost. Sure, they make a lot of money...but they spend way more than they need to. That money could go to much better uses than continuing to feed the beast.

There is no university more fiscally responsible with athletics than Ohio University. I would argue that to the end. Look at the inputs relative to the outputs. We ARE doing things the right way.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 12:49 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more

Say what you want about the school up the road, but that monstrosity of an athletic department funds itself and doesn't drain money either from the academic side of the university budget or from the students in the form of direct fees.
 

So, where's the deal at O$U?  2013/14 Tuition and FEES

OHIO=         $10,380

Ohio State=   $10,010

How much do students at O$U pay to watch their team?  Do they get the best seats?  Do they ever get to use any of the athletic  facilities for free?  (Can they skate for nothing as at Byrd?)  How much are the students at O$U paying to go to the bowl this season?

Just because O$U fully funds all the athletics and do not use student fees does not mean the bottom line is a better deal for Buckeye Students.

Am I missing something on the academic side that O$U does better than OHIO on a cost basis, ie more research dollars per capita?



 
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Posted: 12/29/2013 12:53 PM
catfan28 wrote:expand_more
 

There is no university more fiscally responsible with athletics than Ohio University. I would argue that to the end. Look at the inputs relative to the outputs. We ARE doing things the right way.


If you're talking about volleyball, you're absolutely right.  After that you offer no more than an opinion.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:03 PM
MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more

Say what you want about the school up the road, but that monstrosity of an athletic department funds itself and doesn't drain money either from the academic side of the university budget or from the students in the form of direct fees.
 

So, where's the deal at O$U?  2013/14 Tuition and FEES

OHIO=         $10,380

Ohio State=   $10,010

How much do students at O$U pay to watch their team?  Do they get the best seats?  Do they ever get to use any of the athletic  facilities for free?  (Can they skate for nothing as at Byrd?)  How much are the students at O$U paying to go to the bowl this season?

Just because O$U fully funds all the athletics and do not use student fees does not mean the bottom line is a better deal for Buckeye Students.

Am I missing something on the academic side that O$U does better than OHIO on a cost basis, ie more research dollars per capita?

 


As the father of a high school junior deciding on where he's going to apply, I can tell you that sticker price is only the beginning of the cost equation.  OSU devotes a ton of money towards merit scholarships, which is why they're ranked pretty high on the annual best value list.  Miami is on there too.  The chart shows that, after aid, the sticker price at OSU and Miami with room and board is almost cut in half.  Is Ohio competitive with that?  I'd be very interested to find out because I can't find those figures anywhere on Ohio's website.  Ohio might be able to get on the list if they channeled all that athletic subsidy towards scholarships. 

As for paying to watch their team, who cares.  Those to whom it's important will pay, but nobody is required to buy tickets.  Football doesn't matter to you?  Great, you're not required to support it.  Hell, OSU could easily take those tickets and sell them at double the price to alumni or t-shirt fans.  As for using facilities, I have zero knowledge nor do I care.  I'm less interested in how things work up the road than with how they work at Ohio.  And we have a dysfunctional system where academic spending isn't even keeping up with inflation and athletic spending--subsidized by academics and students--is completely out of control.

 
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:29 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more

Say what you want about the school up the road, but that monstrosity of an athletic department funds itself and doesn't drain money either from the academic side of the university budget or from the students in the form of direct fees.
 

So, where's the deal at O$U?  2013/14 Tuition and FEES

OHIO=         $10,380

Ohio State=   $10,010

How much do students at O$U pay to watch their team?  Do they get the best seats?  Do they ever get to use any of the athletic  facilities for free?  (Can they skate for nothing as at Byrd?)  How much are the students at O$U paying to go to the bowl this season?

Just because O$U fully funds all the athletics and do not use student fees does not mean the bottom line is a better deal for Buckeye Students.

Am I missing something on the academic side that O$U does better than OHIO on a cost basis, ie more research dollars per capita?

 


As the father of a high school junior deciding on where he's going to apply, I can tell you that sticker price is only the beginning of the cost equation.  OSU devotes a ton of money towards merit scholarships, which is why they're ranked pretty high on the annual best value list.  Miami is on there too.  The chart shows that, after aid, the sticker price at OSU and Miami with room and board is almost cut in half.  Is Ohio competitive with that?  I'd be very interested to find out because I can't find those figures anywhere on Ohio's website.  Ohio might be able to get on the list if they channeled all that athletic subsidy towards scholarships. 

As for paying to watch their team, who cares.  Those to whom it's important will pay, but nobody is required to buy tickets.  Football doesn't matter to you?  Great, you're not required to support it.  Hell, OSU could easily take those tickets and sell them at double the price to alumni or t-shirt fans.  As for using facilities, I have zero knowledge nor do I care.  I'm less interested in how things work up the road than with how they work at Ohio.  And we have a dysfunctional system where academic spending isn't even keeping up with inflation and athletic spending--subsidized by academics and students--is completely out of control.

 


Interesting thoughts Pride.  The one thing that I'd take issue with is this comment:  The chart shows that, after aid, the sticker price at OSU and Miami with room and board is almost cut in half.   I don't personally consider loans financial aid.  The fact that so many people have been convinced that loans are financial aid is a good portion of the problem related to the continued escalation of college costs and student debt.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:40 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
If you're talking about volleyball, you're absolutely right.  After that you offer no more than an opinion.


What??? I think facts can be offered pretty easily to back up that claim...

I'm as disappointed as anyone about the lack of a MAC title in football. But for MAC standards, we are in uncharted territory. Five straight winning seasons and bowl games. Sure we want more. But that's consistency on a pretty elite level.

Basketball? We've had 4 straight postseason trips. Two of those to the big dance - winning games BOTH times. That is really unheard of at our level.

I challenge anyone to find a "mid-major" school over the last 5 years that has sustained this sort of success in the 2 major sports. All the while, our budget is middle of the road in the MAC...and on the low end for non-AQ schools.

This took a bit of research, but I had some time today. Here are the schools that have gone to 5 straight bowls and 4 straight MBB postseasons:

BYU
Florida State
Michigan State
Pittsburgh
Wisconsin
OHIO

Six of them. Each of which spends at least DOUBLE on athletics compared to us. Most of them triple.

Our success in the two major sports is unbelievable. No other school at our level has been able to achieve this sort of sustainable, long-term success. Sure, there's a few "flashes in the pan"...but we have achieved a sustainable model of winning on a shoestring budget.
Last Edited: 12/29/2013 1:50:32 PM by bobcat72
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:40 PM
Sticker cost I can find.  What I can't find on Ohio's site is the average amount of merit aid (not federal grants and loans) that is being distributed.  I did find a third party site with interesting results.  


Average amount of Institutional Aid (they break down all govt. forms of aid seperately).

Ohio--$3,588
Miami--$5,702 (+59%)
OSU--$6,075 (+69%)


And taking a spin around Ohio for comparison's sake, we find:

Toledo--$4703
Bowling Green--$4,410
Akron--$5,152
Cincinnati--$5,471
Kent State--$3,850

Dead last among all the residential public universities in Ohio.  People, please don't take Rodney at his word.  He talks a good game, but if you dig into the actual data underlying where he's taken Ohio, he is a complete disaster who will undo a generation of university progress if given the chance.

Meanwhile, we're subsidizing the athletic department almost $20 million/year.

 









 
Last Edited: 12/29/2013 1:49:58 PM by OUPride
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:45 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
And we have a dysfunctional system where academic spending isn't even keeping up with inflation and athletic spending--subsidized by academics and students--is completely out of control.
 


This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen on this board. If you think athletic spending is out of control at Ohio University, you are simply out of touch. It's 2% of the university budget.

Thinking athletics is part of the problem with the university budget is like thinking the Department of Commerce and EPA are what lead to the federal deficit. It's a negligible portion of the budget. A complete non-factor when even considering where to make cuts.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 1:56 PM
bobcat72 wrote:expand_more
And we have a dysfunctional system where academic spending isn't even keeping up with inflation and athletic spending--subsidized by academics and students--is completely out of control.
 


This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen on this board. If you think athletic spending is out of control at Ohio University, you are simply out of touch. It's 2% of the university budget.

Thinking athletics is part of the problem with the university budget is like thinking the Department of Commerce and EPA are what lead to the federal deficit. It's a negligible portion of the budget. A complete non-factor when even considering where to make cuts.


You sound like an OSU t-shirt fan.  Sports are all that matter.  The most fiscally responsible department in the country?  Are you stoned.  In what Bizarro World is a department that is $20 million dollars in the red and needing an annual bailout from the university to balance its books, "fiscally responsible."  The reality is that whatever Ohio University has accomplished in football and basketball it has come at a huge cost and at a time when the university is largely stagnant on so many other much more important fronts where that $20M could do so much more good.

 
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Posted: 12/29/2013 2:04 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
You sound like an OSU t-shirt fan.  Sports are all that matter.  The most fiscally responsible department in the country?  Are you stoned.  In what Bizarro World is a department that is $20 million dollars in the red and needing an annual bailout from the university to balance its books, "fiscally responsible."  The reality is that whatever Ohio University has accomplished in football and basketball it has come at a huge cost and at a time when the university is largely stagnant on so many other much more important fronts where that $20M could do so much more good.
 


I work on the academics side of the university. I have no problem with what's going on. It is the reality of athletics at our level. If you want to just eliminate sports all together, just say so. Because that is what you're proposing.

It's not a bailout. It's not "in the red". It's a budgeted line item. And EVERY mid-major school has to have it or else we'd all be Heidelberg.

If you take that option off of the table, there's little argument that we are running our athletics department in a fiscally responsible manner. Our budget is middle of the road for the MAC, let alone all non-AQ's. We're not spending crazy money here. We're not even keeping up with the Joneses. But what we are doing is achieving some unbelievable results that are literally unprecedented. That's good enough for me.
Last Edited: 12/29/2013 2:10:04 PM by bobcat72
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Posted: 12/29/2013 2:07 PM
Also, what part of 2% OF THE BUDGET can you not understand? Not getting overly political, but it's exactly like the conservatives that propose we have to eliminate Head Start, Dept. of the Interior, PBS, etc. to balance the federal budget. Meanwhile, the elephants in the room are getting ignored.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 2:51 PM
I don't understand the 2% figure at all........because it's not real.  It's as real as one of Rodney's speeches talking about gains in the freshman class right before the university drops another ten spots in the rankings.  Here are the real budget numbers with linked documents.

Ohio University's overall budget (and that's everything: med school and branch campuses) is 707,603,000.  The budget for the Athens campus is $571,373,000.  This is against an athletic budget of $25,470,296 and institutional subsidies and student fee subsidies of $19,576,760.

Now, I'm gonna sit down at Granny's kitchen table and do some cypherin'  Hopefully, I remember to carry my aught.  What I get is that the athletic department budget of $25,470,296 actually amounts to 3.6% of the entire (med school and branch campuses) budget.  Hell, the subsidy alone is over 2.8% of that budget.  But what I really feel is applicable is its relationship to the Athens campus budget where it is 4.5%--over twice your number.  The subsidy alone is 3.4%.

In a perfect world, where the university wasn't being starved for cash in many of its core missions, I wouldn't care about the subsidy.  We don't live in that perfect world, and choices need to be made as to where to allocate funds.  In that world, the subsidy is an inefficient waste of money and could be spent in much more effective ways to make Ohio a better university and one more attractive to top students and faculty.

 
Last Edited: 12/29/2013 2:53:14 PM by OUPride
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Posted: 12/29/2013 2:55 PM
If the athletic budget is 2% of the total budget, then even if it was entirely stopped, and all that money was funneled to academics, it would only increase academic spending by 2%

As for scholarship money, much of that is funded by the endowment. One problem that Ohio has relative to some institutions is a significantly smaller endowment than many. Over the last decade, though, Ohio's endowment growth has been exemplary, about 12% a year, one of the fastest rates of growth in the country. If they can maintain that rate of growth for another decade, they will be in a lot better position to fund things like scholarships, endowed faculty positions, and so on.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 3:51 PM
OUPride wrote:expand_more
In a perfect world, where the university wasn't being starved for cash in many of its core missions, I wouldn't care about the subsidy.  We don't live in that perfect world, and choices need to be made as to where to allocate funds.  In that world, the subsidy is an inefficient waste of money and could be spent in much more effective ways to make Ohio a better university and one more attractive to top students and faculty


So does your perfect world include sports? If not, please explain what likely impact that decision will have on alumni support? Do you see OU becoming another Antioch College?
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Posted: 12/29/2013 5:08 PM
I believe that OUPride makes some points that have been noted in other articles. Have you(OUPride)not co-authored several articles with Dr. Vedder regarding academics and athletics. If so your position may be considered bias. Your academic phrasing seems to be familiar. If not, I have made an error in judgment and evaluation.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 6:40 PM
Panda wrote:expand_more
I believe that OUPride makes some points that have been noted in other articles. Have you(OUPride)not co-authored several articles with Dr. Vedder regarding academics and athletics. If so your position may be considered bias. Your academic phrasing seems to be familiar. If not, I have made an error in judgment and evaluation.

Actually, I can't stand Vedder.  See my broken clock analogy above.  I think he uses some broadly popular notions and issues that I think are legitimate areas of debate (tuition increasing well beyond the rate of inflation, athletic subsidies) to promote an agenda that I find abhorrent (ending all student aid and essentially gutting the concept of public higher education).  I'm no fan of the man at all.  I think he's disingenuous at best and more likely a hack to be honest.

As for the post above yours, I think a rational basis for athletic subsidies (and I'm off the cuff here) would be say no more than 25% of the athletic department's budget (currently 77% at Ohio) and no more than 1% of the university's budget (currently 2.8% or 3.4% based upon whether one looks at the university's overall budget or just that for main campus).  

That would free up roughly 15 million dollars that could be used for merit scholarships.  That would fund 70 full scholarships with room and board for in-state students every year.  You want to close the gap with Miami and OSU for student recruitment, that's how you do it, not by pouring more money down the rabbit hole of athletics in the hope that some highly debatable "Flutie Effect" comes to pass.  Again, I became involved in this debate in response to posts that were stating we were attracting much better students that before our recent athletic success and that those (illusory) gains were somehow linked to athletics.  
 
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Posted: 12/29/2013 6:42 PM
OUPride (I like the moniker), what are your thoughts on the men's basketball program; does that program spend too much $ also?
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