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Topic: Ridpath to Germany
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Pataskala
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Posted: 6/3/2014 10:09 AM
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The Dispatch says he will study the European sports system.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 6/3/2014 12:59 PM
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Someone else has posted this elsewhere on here...but what about the possibility of moving to a club system where individual clubs are loosely affiliated with universities...teams would still be named after the universities and wear the same uniforms, etc. 

I wish Ridpath well in his European endeavors.

Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:12 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more

Someone else has posted this elsewhere on here...but what about the possibility of moving to a club system where individual clubs are loosely affiliated with universities...teams would still be named after the universities and wear the same uniforms, etc. 


Personally, I think that's the future of high school sports, and maybe it will bleed into college sports as well. At the high school level, it would seem club designation for sports like football would be a tremendous upside--no expenses, no liabilities, all the recognition.

Athletes and their parents pay for participation, just like club. The school then commits their budget exclusively to academic pursuits. 

It already happens, to some degree, with soccer. Most club soccer teams are far superior to their high school counterparts. Many quality soccer players elect to not even play high school soccer because the teams are mediocre at best. 

 
L.C.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 1:28 PM
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I think this is a very plausible future, at least, below the snob-5 conferences, and perhaps there as well, depending on how the unionization effort proceeds. The universities could provide facilities, etc.
Casper71
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:36 PM
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I still believe we will end up with some kind of corporate sponsorships out there for those snob teams.  I compared it to the semi pro leagues back in the 50s and early 60s when companies like Phillips 66 and Barber Greene sponsored teams and paid guys.  I believe that was fast pitch softball back in the day.
L.C.
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:39 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
I still believe we will end up with some kind of corporate sponsorships out there for those snob teams....

Isn't that what we already have?
 "This afternoon's semi-pro football game features the Buckeys, sponsored by Ohio State University, against the Wolverines, sponsored by the University of Michigan".
Ohio69
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Posted: 6/3/2014 3:48 PM
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Robert Fox wrote:expand_more

Someone else has posted this elsewhere on here...but what about the possibility of moving to a club system where individual clubs are loosely affiliated with universities...teams would still be named after the universities and wear the same uniforms, etc. 


Personally, I think that's the future of high school sports, and maybe it will bleed into college sports as well. At the high school level, it would seem club designation for sports like football would be a tremendous upside--no expenses, no liabilities, all the recognition.


Some sports lend themselves to a club set up.  Like soccer.  Tie in a university by renting their facilities and selling cheap beer, er I mean tickets, to their students.  There's a chance.  But, seems like too much a shift for it to ever happen.
Bobcatbob
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Posted: 6/4/2014 8:54 AM
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What always gets lost in these "let the sports pay for themselves" discussions are the non-revenue sports.  I'm not talking about A&M's pistol or fencing team, but most women's and/or olympic sports, swimming, track (yeah, ironic, I know), wrestling, even baseball.

If high schools and universities don't back these sports, who will?  Would parents of participants pay to send their volleyball playing daughters to an entire season of conference games, followed by a conference tournament, NCAA qualifers and the championship tournament?  We're talking about major investments.  Oh, and then pay (or pay for) the coaches, too?  I know a lot of scholastic club teams run on a similar model but it's mostly because the promise of a scholarship awaits.  Take that away, too, and I think the system implodes.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/4/2014 10:41 AM
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Bobcatbob wrote:expand_more
What always gets lost in these "let the sports pay for themselves" discussions are the non-revenue sports.  I'm not talking about A&M's pistol or fencing team, but most women's and/or olympic sports, swimming, track (yeah, ironic, I know), wrestling, even baseball.

If high schools and universities don't back these sports, who will?  Would parents of participants pay to send their volleyball playing daughters to an entire season of conference games, followed by a conference tournament, NCAA qualifers and the championship tournament?  We're talking about major investments.  Oh, and then pay (or pay for) the coaches, too?  I know a lot of scholastic club teams run on a similar model but it's mostly because the promise of a scholarship awaits.  Take that away, too, and I think the system implodes.


I agree it would not be possible if nothing else changes. But if colleges went to a new "club" system, then all teams would be in the same boat. Plans for travel and tournaments would take into consideration overall costs. Club teams would play geographically close teams first, and would schedule tournaments that make competitive and economic sense. It's happening now with a variety of club-level college teams. It could work with other "olympic" sports as well. 


Would parents support that? I think they would. 



 
Pataskala
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Posted: 6/4/2014 10:57 AM
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L.C. wrote:expand_more
I still believe we will end up with some kind of corporate sponsorships out there for those snob teams....

Isn't that what we already have?
 "This afternoon's semi-pro football game features the Buckeys, sponsored by Ohio State University, against the Wolverines, sponsored by the University of Michigan".


The sports menu on the Plain Dealer's website says it all:

Browns
Indians
Cavaliers
Ohio State
College
D.A.
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Posted: 6/5/2014 9:46 AM
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I never met the guy, so I couldn't levy an opinion other than I didn't share in many of his opinions, and yet respect his freedom of speech.  I do know that he was often frozen out of many activities on campus due to his views, which he should have expected.  I am a firm supporter of the maxim: do not defecate where you consume.  So while I respect one's right to their opinion, I also think it is foolish for someone to not expect some negative reactions to being a vocal opponent of a business model employed by your employer. (looks in Steve Hays'/Rich Vedder's direction) It's a big, wide world out there, so if you don't like the principles of your employer, I would suggest finding an employer that operates under a model that you admire.
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Posted: 6/5/2014 1:58 PM
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D.A. wrote:expand_more
:...... do not defecate where you consume.  So while I respect one's right to their opinion, I also think it is foolish for someone to not expect some negative reactions to being a vocal opponent of a business model employed by your employer. (looks in Steve Hays'/Rich Vedder's direction) ....


Isn't that why Ivory Towers were first constructed?  For local defecation, that is.
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Posted: 6/6/2014 8:23 PM
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I have been advocating for club basketball in the US since the early 70's!  So glad people are finally talking about it.  Check this site out:
Club Basketball USA 
Last Edited: 6/6/2014 8:25:56 PM by Bean Salad Surgery
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Posted: 6/6/2014 9:54 PM
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Bean Salad Surgery wrote:expand_more
I have been advocating for club basketball in the US since the early 70's! So glad people are finally talking about it. Check this site out:

And doesn't America dominate International competition?
Alan Swank
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Posted: 6/6/2014 10:01 PM
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As it now exists in the US in every sport but basketball, club competition is available to a few - those who have the means and the parental support.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/7/2014 9:07 AM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
As it now exists in the US in every sport but basketball, club competition is available to a few - those who have the means and the parental support.

It's available to everyone. Those who do not have the financial capability are often helped with "scholarships" offered by the club that allow the kids to play. Of course, that varies from club to club, but a kid with talent, who wants to play, will not be turned away.

 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 6/7/2014 2:57 PM
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Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
As it now exists in the US in every sport but basketball, club competition is available to a few - those who have the means and the parental support.

It's available to everyone. Those who do not have the financial capability are often helped with "scholarships" offered by the club that allow the kids to play. Of course, that varies from club to club, but a kid with talent, who wants to play, will not be turned away.

 


Robert - you contradict yourself.  On one hand you say it's available to everyone and then you say it's only available to those who have talent.  Not everyone has talent so that's not everybody.

As a former club coach, i stand by my original statement.
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Posted: 6/7/2014 3:40 PM
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What do you guys call AAU basketball?
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/7/2014 4:17 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
As it now exists in the US in every sport but basketball, club competition is available to a few - those who have the means and the parental support.

It's available to everyone. Those who do not have the financial capability are often helped with "scholarships" offered by the club that allow the kids to play. Of course, that varies from club to club, but a kid with talent, who wants to play, will not be turned away.

 


Robert - you contradict yourself.  On one hand you say it's available to everyone and then you say it's only available to those who have talent.  Not everyone has talent so that's not everybody.

As a former club coach, i stand by my original statement.



It is available to everyone; it's not guaranteed for everyone. If you don't have the talent, there are many other team options available. 



As for AAU basketball, I call that "club."



 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 6/7/2014 10:37 PM
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Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
As it now exists in the US in every sport but basketball, club competition is available to a few - those who have the means and the parental support.

It's available to everyone. Those who do not have the financial capability are often helped with "scholarships" offered by the club that allow the kids to play. Of course, that varies from club to club, but a kid with talent, who wants to play, will not be turned away.

 


Robert - you contradict yourself.  On one hand you say it's available to everyone and then you say it's only available to those who have talent.  Not everyone has talent so that's not everybody.

As a former club coach, i stand by my original statement.



It is available to everyone; it's not guaranteed for everyone. If you don't have the talent, there are many other team options available. 



As for AAU basketball, I call that "club."



 


Robert you're in over your head on this one.  it is not available to everyone.  A good friend of mine coaches club volleyball in Texas.  VB clubs generally start with 11 and 12 year olds.  To play in her club you're looking at $6,000.  That is not available to everyone.   As for other options, sure you can go to Athens City Rec and play bump ball.  

As for AAU, it's become a money machine for quite a few people. 
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Posted: 6/8/2014 8:54 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
What do you guys call AAU basketball?

Pretty much dead. 

Summer ball has very little to do with AAU these days. Semantics I know.... but AAU membership and attendance at championships is not much a part of the bigger scene presently. Out of 10 - 15 events a team plays in a year only one or 2 at most is AAU affiliated. 

To be sure the Club system is alive and well in Volleyball and Basketball but teams like OBC, King James Shooting Stars, Eric Gordon All Stars,Indiana Elite, and a plethora of teams like Long Island Lightning continue to thrive in an active tourney scene while not carrying AAU membership cards. Gym Rats and USSSA basketball started as a direct competitior to AAU lifting the age restrictions and replacing it with graduating class enabling guys like OJ Mayo to play against guys in the O7 class while guys like Greg Oden , Kevin Durant and other in the 05 and 06 classes were younger than he. Truly let him build a legend while playing like a "man amongst boys" 

Teams like the Phiiips 66 oilers which won the National AAU Mens ' ship and UK which won the NCAA in 1948 were combined to become the Olympic Team that went to London the same year 

I think Bean Salad is right and Club teams will be finding a place if the current situation with School Budgets and extracurriculars as well as the controversy with recruiting, parochials dominating class championships and sponsorships and alliances with shoe companies continue to progress. The money in basketball is too big to ignore. OTOH volleyball is a different sport where clubs really serve as vehicles to get exposure and play the whole rest of the year. Clubs like Munciana build the program from the kindergarten level up teaching the game in order to build players skills and manufacture those players in hopes of playing at the next level. Our new coach is a former Munciana Coach. 

the aau situation where everyone pointed toward the State Qualifier and National Championship in basketball is not really present these days. 

 
Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/8/2014 9:14 AM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more



Robert you're in over your head on this one.  it is not available to everyone.  A good friend of mine coaches club volleyball in Texas.  VB clubs generally start with 11 and 12 year olds.  To play in her club you're looking at $6,000.  That is not available to everyone.   As for other options, sure you can go to Athens City Rec and play bump ball.  

As for AAU, it's become a money machine for quite a few people. 



If I'm in over my head, you'll have to give me another example as to how. I will admit, however, I know nothing about volleyball clubs or what they cost. I strongly suspect you can play club volleyball for far less than $6k. I KNOW you can play club basketball and soccer for far less than that. 

You're throwing the highest figure you can find at me to prove your point, when you and I both know your example is not typical. And, your ignoring my point about "scholarships," which I believe most clubs offer. 

Bottom line is this: Is it expensive to play club sports? Yes. On that we both agree.
Is it exclusionary? No more so than the cost of a Mercedes Benz is exclusionary. I'm not sure what you want here?For it to be free? For society at large to pay for it and permit no entrance requirements?

I feel like I'm arguing with idealism.







 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 6/8/2014 10:07 AM
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Robert Fox wrote:expand_more



Robert you're in over your head on this one.  it is not available to everyone.  A good friend of mine coaches club volleyball in Texas.  VB clubs generally start with 11 and 12 year olds.  To play in her club you're looking at $6,000.  That is not available to everyone.   As for other options, sure you can go to Athens City Rec and play bump ball.  

As for AAU, it's become a money machine for quite a few people. 



If I'm in over my head, you'll have to give me another example as to how. I will admit, however, I know nothing about volleyball clubs or what they cost. I strongly suspect you can play club volleyball for far less than $6k. I KNOW you can play club basketball and soccer for far less than that. 

You're throwing the highest figure you can find at me to prove your point, when you and I both know your example is not typical. And, your ignoring my point about "scholarships," which I believe most clubs offer. 

Bottom line is this: Is it expensive to play club sports? Yes. On that we both agree.
Is it exclusionary? No more so than the cost of a Mercedes Benz is exclusionary. I'm not sure what you want here?For it to be free? For society at large to pay for it and permit no entrance requirements?

I feel like I'm arguing with idealism.







 


I'm a big fan of regulated scholastic sports.  Granted some of the OHSAA regulations are pretty crazy but sports sponsored by schools with coaches who teach in the building are my preferred way to go.  Every kid has a chance to try out for the team and in some sports such as track and cross country make the team.  There is administrative oversight.  Kids have to perform in the classroom and show up to school to play.  That's a huge carrot.  I'd hate to see club teams outside the school setting replace that.  Sports in my opinion are part of the learning process.  Sports for sports sake or to develop talent for the next level aren't really part of that total educational package.  
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Posted: 6/8/2014 10:33 AM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more

I'm a big fan of regulated scholastic sports.  Granted some of the OHSAA regulations are pretty crazy but sports sponsored by schools with coaches who teach in the building are my preferred way to go.  Every kid has a chance to try out for the team and in some sports such as track and cross country make the team.  There is administrative oversight.  Kids have to perform in the classroom and show up to school to play.  That's a huge carrot.  I'd hate to see club teams outside the school setting replace that.  Sports in my opinion are part of the learning process.  Sports for sports sake or to develop talent for the next level aren't really part of that total educational package.  

Okay. Now we're finding some common ground. I agree with much of that, especially the need for consideration of academic responsibilities. However, I'm not sure the school is upholding that requirement any better than a club can or would. 

I also agree that sports are part of the learning process. However, public schools are under tremendous pressure to achieve STEM requirements and improve test scores. At many schools, athletics is a distraction, especially outside of the football and/or basketball teams. Coaching, again especially in the minor sports, is often dismal. Budgetary support is equally bad. 

For years, my son played rec football (little league), and our coach would not let the kids play without acceptable report cards. That was the coach's call, and the parents supported him. If the coach does not uphold those standards, parents are free to take their kids elsewhere. 

On the other hand, if your daughter plays soccer for a horrible high school coach, you're pretty much SOL unless you want to quit the team and join a club. Or move. 

 
Last Edited: 6/8/2014 10:34:11 AM by Robert Fox
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Posted: 6/8/2014 11:59 AM
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At my high school, sports were required. It was considered an important part of the educational process. You didn't have to be good, but you had to do something. I think that you'd improve test scores more with healthy bodies than with more time in classrooms. Sports should not be for just the top athletes. Health is important for everyone.
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