Very interesting read, just a small question.

When you say 'win against team with winning record,' do you mean at the time the game was played, or by the end of the season?

The records were end of season. So regardless of the point in the season when two teams played, the end of season records were compared.

FCS teams counted as wins, but not wins vs winning teams.

The WVWTs included post season victories.

The sequence of WVWTs isn't important when evaluating teams in hindsight.

What is your justification for selecting that specific time and conference constraint?

The information is useless without comparing the record to OHIO's peers. Because of the extremely specific and rather odd constraints (relative to the FBS in general), a comparison of other peers would be useless (not unlike nearly all of your posts).

Would your question make sense when querying any other team but OHIO?

Test:

"What's AKRON's record since OHIO's 2012 loss to Miami vs. teams in the MAC with winning records?"

"What's FLORIDA's record since OHIO's 2012 loss to Miami vs. teams in the MAC with winning records?"

That is a worthless question Monroe.

That's cool bro. Many people simultaneously believe in free will and "destiny" (lol). This post isn't about exposing cognitive dissonance.

As I have demonstrated, MAC teams with 3 WVWTs have played in the MAC Championship game every season since 2006 (with the exception of 2005 when four teams had 3 WVWTs and NIU had 4 WVWTs). All a coach can do is make their team competitive that season. Once a team is in that MAC Championship game, anything can happen; even 2008 Buffalo and their coach Turner Gill can beat you (Gill is 2 for 26 all time vs teams with winning records).

OHIO had 2 WVWTs in 2012 and 2013. They beat more "prime competition" than half of college football.

This 2014 season is only halfway done. And the numbers suggest we are due for a couple more chances at WVWTs.

I hold you in contempt because I don't value what you have to say. I've seen more than enough of your concessions and aggressions on this message board over the years to know I'm talking to a brick wall (and not a particularly interesting one either; kind of like a brick wall in a convenient store). Running through this back and forth with you is practice for me (like one man ping pong).

Your take is invalid. What is your justification for that specific date? Even if you could muster some half baked explanation for why it's merited to begin the evaluation of a team halfway through the season and then compare that team to some other team, your "take" is still invalid.

Why? Because your "take" fails to sufficiently compare itself to peers under standard conditions. You could arbitrarily change the method (period of evaluation) to show other teams in a bad light whenever you'd like. This is a game you've set up Monroe, where no one can win but you.

Just as OHIO ended 2012 on a sour note* (*a sour note at includes the program's 2nd bowl victory) some other teams with good coaches have done the same.

Let's play the Monroe game:

From September 17 2011 to September 28 2012, Dave Clawson's Bowling Green Falcons were 4-14, including a 45-14 home loss to NIU (the same NIU team OHIO lost to by 3 in the MAC championship) and a 37-0 loss to a (7-6 EOY) Virginia Tech team.

Now Dave had been coaching at BG since 2009, so he wasn't exactly a new head coach.

Dave Clawson and the Bowling Green Falcons, as you know Monroe, went on the road and beat OHIO in 2012 (and 2013). Despite starting the 2012 season 1-3, including a conference loss to Toledo, BG was able to finish 8-5 with a 6-2 conference record. Clawson's Falcons defeated NIU by 20 points the next season for the MAC Championship (the same Huskies that took BG behind the woodshed in 2011).

I can play the Monroe game all day.

Isn't that exactly how the brick wall responds?

Rather than state specifically where you think my response failed to invalidate your theory, you simply muddle back some emotional retort.

I would love to read your comments on the Dave Clawson example I put together for you in my last post. Or the Brady Hoke example I tabulated for you at the end of the 1st page.

Specifically I'm interested in how you think Dave Clawson was able to overcome his 4-14 record, between a conveniently selected period of time between the 2011 and 2012 seasons, and win a MAC Championship in 2013. I'd also be interested to read what coaching strategies you think led Brady Hoke to a 7-2 record against winning teams in 2011. Certainly I'd like to read your thoughts on why Brady Hoke only managed 2 and 1 wins against winning teams respectively the following two seasons.

The brick wall does not return the player's shot where the player stands. The brick wall only returns shots at the angle of reflection. In other words, my spat with you allows me to see where the most extreme angle of response to my objective conclusion will place the ball. Then I simply chase the ball down.

I'm wrong with great frequency. That's my secret. Through a trial and error process across the spectrum of my arguments I'm able to strengthen my conclusions. Iteration is my friend. And from time to time I'll square off with a brick wall like you Monroe to stay sharp, work on the fundamentals.

Overwhelmingly I value the contributions alums, students, and fans alike make to this message board. The posters I respect the most are the posters who demonstrate they are able to return the shot where the opponent stands (when conflict arises), because to me that signifies they are not a brick wall like you Monroe.

But is the OHIO record in that period of time valuable information without comparing the record of OHIO's peers? And is it fair to judge OHIO's peers across the same irregular period of time?

What can you even conclude if given this information?

UpSan and 105--Thanks for your responses.

I clearly stated that most of us consider a MAC title the #1 goal. And I chose the most recent 25 because they are now. And I focused on the team that I love.

I don't get how he doesn't understand the relevancy of that.

He's entitled to his point of view--fair enough. I love that he tells me that my point of view is invalid.

Speaking of failure to address arguments made, I'd like to see him address my specifics on the poor quality of our play-calling and scheme. Or, we could discuss BG from three years ago.

Who's the brick wall.

I'll answer the question for him. The Miami loss in 2012 is often viewed as a turning point. Somehow a team that was undefeated and beat PSU and then a series of awful teams (and a Marshall team that played awful) lost to Miami, and it really hasn't been the same since then. Everyone believes that strange things happened in the 2nd half of that season and most of 2013. But the question is did they?

We won 3 games against teams with winning records in 2012 – two before the Miami game and one after (the bowl game). In 2013, we won two games against teams with winning records (placing us in the top half of the 123 FBS teams). Zero against MAC teams with winning records, but those were both road games. So the ability to compare to other MAC teams is scientifically disingenuous.

The reality is folks need to stop holding up 2012 as an OMG season. It was not. The 2011 season was CLEARLY our best season. And, as I have said before, barring the collapse on the 2nd half of that MACC game, this and other threads calling into question the coaching or program would not exist (so again, folks are letting one half of a game define their perceptive).

2011 was a very good season. 2012 was more smoke and mirrors. We were solid, but not a true top 25 team at any point in the season. 2013 we were an above average MAC and FBS team. Not what we strive for – but the reality. We can point at coaching, play calling, player effort, injuries, etc. Reality is we were an above average MAC team last year for all of those reasons.

2011 – we won our bowl game. 2012 we won our bowl game (despite the perceived cliff we fell off of). 2013 we got handled by what we now know is a very good East Carolina team.

This year we are rebuilding. Anyone that thinks this program was reaching a point where we simply reload and run the MAC is not thinking realistically, but with their green glasses on.

We are starting numerous freshmen at key positions. That bodes well for the future. But be prepared - they may hit a freshman wall.

I agree with most of what you say, however I think the impact of 2012 season on the psyche of the team is a lot bigger than what some may think, and it's not a statistical analysis.

+1

Only reinforcing my perception that you are a brick wall Monroe, you ignored my explicit requests to address my attempts to invalidate your theory. For the nth time you've demonstrated your only weapon is to drive the ball away as far as possible...

I addressed that previously with a "that's cool bro".

Most fans may set a conference championship as a goal. Most players and coaches may set a conference championship as a goal. But the data suggests, you can only reasonably prepare your team to get there. When you get there, don't be surprised to face a team with the same goal.

Your season of results won't help you win that game. There is evidence that any team can win, even a Buffalo team with a bad resume and a bad head coach who is 2-28 all time vs teams with winning records (1 of which is a MAC Championship).

NIU lost to Miami in the 2010 MAC Championship game. Did that provide any indication of who would return and win the next two years (NIU)?

Frank Solich has been to three MAC Championship games. He knows how to get there. Winning that specific game may be beyond the reach of what any one human being can reasonably be asked to control.

This is a results thread. You can spin your tires in the mud all you want in some other thread that pursues the fruitless task of evaluating "quality play calling and scheme". Those discussions are beyond the scope of this thread.

Forget you all then.

The Penn State win was signature. Got attention.

If you think the data set starting with Miami in 2012 is not significant, well, then keep ignoring reality.

...and my first question becomes what time frame do you consider relevant then for discussing the future of this team.

Oh, this team. Yeah, I focus on Ohio. Because I know very little of the specifics of the other teams apart from when we play them. And, again, I'm concerned about Ohio. Apparently that is strange to many of you despite the fact that this is an Ohio board.

Yeah, my discussion is not only 'don't win as often as you think'..it encompasses does this Ohio team win as often as it should. I can see how you'd find that totally insulting and outrageous on an Ohio board.