Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Attention Brian Haines
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OUBob
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Posted: 8/10/2013 11:23 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
So if you are a long-snapper and a punter, here is your practice itinerary for every day of camp:

1. Snap the ball
2. Catch the ball
3. Punt the ball
4. Repeat
1a: lineman; block.
Paul Graham
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Posted: 8/11/2013 10:36 AM
OUBob wrote:expand_more
So if you are a long-snapper and a punter, here is your practice itinerary for every day of camp:

1. Snap the ball
2. Catch the ball
3. Punt the ball
4. Repeat
1a: lineman; block.
5: Coaches, put your first year long snapper and first year punter in a position where they can be successful.
C Money
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Posted: 8/11/2013 4:23 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
So if you are a long-snapper and a punter, here is your practice itinerary for every day of camp:

1. Snap the ball
2. Catch the ball
3. Punt the ball
4. Repeat


1a: lineman; block.


5: Coaches, put your first year long snapper and first year punter in a position where they can be successful.



6. Score every possession.
Doc Bobcat
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Posted: 8/11/2013 4:34 PM
If Frank thought this formation sucked he'd change it.
L.C.
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Posted: 8/11/2013 5:35 PM
Weren't most or all the blocked punts last year caused by Venham taking an extra step? I'm betting that will never happen again.
Paul Graham
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Posted: 8/11/2013 10:42 PM
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 8/11/2013 11:33 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.






mf279801
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Posted: 8/11/2013 11:47 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.


The punt formation in question isn't an issue, or it shouldn't be. Half* of Division 1A use the same formation, so its probably not as inherently flawed as you like to see it. Last year it all came down to the punter taking too long to get the ball away and/or bad snaps/snap catches.

*I'm guessing at the number, but its pretty darned common
L.C.
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Posted: 8/12/2013 5:31 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off....

I'm not here to debate whose "fault" it was. Any time a player does something wrong, that is also the coach's fault. You dodged the question though. Didn't he take an extra step on most or all of the blocked punts? If so, then correcting the blocked punt problem may not require a change in formation.

You might find this discussion of the shield formation interesting. The claimed advantages are:
1. Significantly reduced practice time. Note that blocking in the traditional scheme is very complex. Here is a discussion of traditional blocking. Here is a discussion of the simpler techniques in the shield formation.
2. Significantly improved coverage. Note that in the NFL, there are limits on men downfield, and since you can't send the men downfield, this benefit is eliminated, so the shield formation is not used in the NFL. Thus the coverage benefit is presumably the main reason for it.

Note that per NCAA Stats, Ohio gave up only 59 yards in punt returns, so from that aspect, the formation worked. By contrast, Ohio gained 287 yards on its own punt returns.
Last Edited: 8/12/2013 5:56:03 AM by L.C.
Bcat2
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Posted: 8/12/2013 9:46 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.


Paul.  What you know could use updating.  Please see L.C.'s post. Sometimes what we know can be wrong. In which case it is better remain silent so as not to .........
Paul Graham
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Posted: 8/12/2013 9:57 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off....

I'm not here to debate whose "fault" it was. Any time a player does something wrong, that is also the coach's fault. You dodged the question though. Didn't he take an extra step on most or all of the blocked punts? If so, then correcting the blocked punt problem may not require a change in formation.

You might find this discussion of the shield formation interesting. The claimed advantages are:
1. Significantly reduced practice time. Note that blocking in the traditional scheme is very complex. Here is a discussion of traditional blocking. Here is a discussion of the simpler techniques in the shield formation.
2. Significantly improved coverage. Note that in the NFL, there are limits on men downfield, and since you can't send the men downfield, this benefit is eliminated, so the shield formation is not used in the NFL. Thus the coverage benefit is presumably the main reason for it.

Note that per NCAA Stats, Ohio gave up only 59 yards in punt returns, so from that aspect, the formation worked. By contrast, Ohio gained 287 yards on its own punt returns.


I'm not sure I agree with your analysis LC. If you look at those stats you sent, we were #97 in net punting yards last year, even considering our improved coverage. And If you just consider yards/punt (37.97) we were in the bottom 10.

So was our improved coverage due to the formation or due to very short kicks? Probably a combination of the two. Was our bottom-10 yards/punt caused by a nervous, PTSD punter? I would say at least partially.

After looking at those stats, I would conclude that our punting game was a failure last season. Not only were we one of the worst punting teams in the country, but it cost us a game (BG). We did not sufficiently protect our young punter and he lost confidence, and it culminated in a complete meltdown on national TV.

Bottom line: if the trade-off is better coverage for shorter punts and some number of blocks...the trade-off was unsuccessful last season.

And lastly, I feel that I've been too harsh in condemning the formation itself. You guys are right that other teams run it pretty successfully with only minor issues. My issues are with *our* implementation, not the theory itself. Something is/was wrong with our version of this thing. We discussed it last year... splits were too wide, punter was too close to the shield, etc....
Paul Graham
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Posted: 8/12/2013 10:04 AM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.


Paul.  What you know could use updating.  Please see L.C.'s post. Sometimes what we know can be wrong. In which case it is better remain silent so as not to .........


Sorry, you're right Bcat2. Punting was a total success last year. #97 in net punting, cost us a game, a comedic performance on national TV, etc....

Oh, and Bcat2, why would Arkley ask the coaches this question or feel the need to address it in his column? Doesn't this at least confirm that discussing this issue at least has merit?
Last Edited: 8/12/2013 10:06:46 AM by Paul Graham
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 8/12/2013 10:19 AM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
And lastly, I feel that I've been too harsh in condemning the formation itself. You guys are right that other teams run it pretty successfully with only minor issues. My issues are with *our* implementation, not the theory itself. Something is/was wrong with our version of this thing. We discussed it last year... splits were too wide, punter was too close to the shield, etc....


Perhaps the coaches were to blame to some extent. There were some bad snaps and some bobbled snaps, perhaps some extra snaps. When something goes as badly as punting did last year, there's usually more than one thing to blame. The positive is Ohio no longer has a first-year snapper and punter and is not in the first year of this formation, so hopefully, it will come around.
L.C.
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Posted: 8/12/2013 10:24 AM
Paul, I don't claim to know what all the problems were last year. I do agree that the short punts contributed to the lack of returns. I'd also agree that Venham was probably not completely comfortable, but, was that due to nervousness about blocks? Or to being a freshman? Or to having to adjust from the 3 steps he used in high school to 2? I also don't have a clue how Chapman's snap velocity compares to, say, Ryan Senser.

I have no doubt that the coaches were not pleased with all the blocks last year. I have no doubt they have taken steps to solve the problem. We'll just have to wait and see if the adjustments solve the issues that Ohio had. Hopefully they will, and this will become moot.
C Money
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Posted: 8/12/2013 10:54 AM
I thought it was interesting that in one of the videos Arkley posted (I think it was an Arkley video), Frank mentioned that Anthony Talbert can long-snap. That leads me to believe that the coaches have identified the problem as being the snapper and are taking steps to remedy the problem.
A-townBound
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Posted: 8/12/2013 3:38 PM
Bcat2
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Posted: 8/12/2013 5:31 PM
Paul Graham wrote:expand_more
Just like last year, the loyalists show up to defend the coaches and blame the players for the consistent failure to get a punt off.

When I look down on the field and KNOW a punt is going to be blocked even before the ball is snapped, something is obviously wrong. And Arkley knows it too...which is probably why he asked the coaches *specifically* if the punt formation would remain the same.


Paul.  What you know could use updating.  Please see L.C.'s post. Sometimes what we know can be wrong. In which case it is better remain silent so as not to .........


Sorry, you're right Bcat2. Punting was a total success last year. #97 in net punting, cost us a game, a comedic performance on national TV, etc....

Oh, and Bcat2, why would Arkley ask the coaches this question or feel the need to address it in his column? Doesn't this at least confirm that discussing this issue at least has merit?


Paul, I am a proud "loyalist" though the coaches don't need defending.  See the HustleBelt ranking of coach Solich #1 in the MAC. The Independence Bowl was my last opportunity to look down on the field and I watched the punting very carefully.  I came away confident any issues we once had have been addressed. Oh, before that against Kent Grant punted nine times averaging 41 yards.  Not sure why anyone who watched the bowl would still be hauling baggage about punting.  Oh, and when the reporter asked the MAC's best coach about changing his formation, what did the MAC's best coach say?  Time to move on.  Nothing to see here.
bobcat28
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Posted: 8/12/2013 7:54 PM
Mark my words. Louisville will block a punt, field goal, or extra point against us.
Antonio Pierce
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Posted: 8/12/2013 8:45 PM
Want to pony up?  I will bet large amounts of green that Louisville does no such thing.  Money to charity if you like.

Deciduous Forest Cat
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Posted: 8/12/2013 9:18 PM
bobcat28 wrote:expand_more
Mark my words. Louisville will block a punt, field goal, or extra point against us.


I hope they block 8 extra points.
L.C.
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Posted: 8/12/2013 11:03 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
..I hope they block 8 extra points.

Eight would be good, but might not be enough. Eleven blocked extra points would be better.
Last Edited: 8/13/2013 9:57:55 AM by L.C.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 8/12/2013 11:06 PM
I think the plan is to score every time, so no punting.

I gather that Venham has a pretty fair leg.  I hope that we can unleash it this year.
whoday4life
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Posted: 8/13/2013 12:52 PM
on a brighter note and to move this conversation forward......Amicone, Green and Yaszdani are in a dogfight to replace weller. At todays am set Amicon hit one from the hash for 51 and 55! Green and Yazdani muffed their attempt at 51 and Green made his from 55 as well. Amicone, late to camp, seems to have the proverbial"leg-up", so far and is surprisingly as long as the guy affectionately called Big Country by some. K/Offs were strong on Wed but not as deep as Weller yet but Amicone seemed to be the long guy along with Yaz and Green a little of the mark. All-in-all, what big shoes to fill for these guys in replacing the best Bobcat "K" of all time.
Bcat2
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Posted: 8/13/2013 1:42 PM
bobcat28 wrote:expand_more
Mark my words. Louisville will block a punt, field goal, or extra point against us.


bobcat28. Louisville is the best team Ohio will face, they, like Ohio, are well coached with superior athletes.  It will be the first game of the season at their house.  Even so, if  Ohio's athletes are healthy and play as they have been coached it will be one heck of a game.  I expect each side will suffer breakdowns; missed blocks, bad snaps, missed FG/XP, fumbles, muffed snaps/kicks/punts & interceptions.  Mark my words, these things will be a part of the game. Put two good/great athletes/teams against each other for 120-160 plays and about half of the plays will go for one and half will go for the other. We hope our players bring a few more of those breaks Ohio's way.  Sometime there are slips, stumbles and bumbles. They too are a part of football.  After the game we will see who is the first "fan" looking to throw a coach/player under the bus.  There should be an award for this, don't you think?
Last Edited: 8/13/2013 6:19:49 PM by Bcat2
bobcat28
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Posted: 8/13/2013 9:19 PM
Antonio Pierce wrote:expand_more
Want to pony up?  I will bet large amounts of green that Louisville does no such thing.  Money to charity if you like.


I never bet against the Bobcats to not succeed. I'm just saying I'm predicting there will be a special teams mishap. It could be a kickoff return. I really hope it doesnt happen but my gut tells me it will.
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