Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Hustle Belt Top 70 #57 Tarell Basham (DE - Ohio Bobcats)
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L.C.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:34 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
You don't remember Rakeem Cato....

Every defensive strategy has it's strengths and weaknesses. In the Cover-4, the cornerback usually has no deep help from a safety, so you will give up a few long TDs. As a tradeoff, it is very tough to run against, and very tough against short passes, so it rarely gives up long drives, and it gets a lot of three-and-outs.

By contrast, the Cover-2, which Ohio used prior to 2014, gives up a lot of short runs, and a lot of short passes, but it is very tough to throw deep against. The idea of that defense is to go ahead and give up 3-5 yards a play, but to bend and not break. You force the other team to execute 10-15 plays without an error if they want to score. In the process you give up lots of slow, methodical drives, but hopefully not too many points.

Which is better? That depends on the tradeoff. How many three-and-outs do you get, in exchange for how many long passes? Early in the year last year Ohio gave up all-too-many long passes, but they did improve as the year went on. Partly it was personnel changes, and partly it was simply getting better at the new defense. I don't think they will have nearly as many lapses in 2015.

TheBobcatBandit wrote:expand_more
Mr. Pollyanna here: I'll add that with a half-way decent offense last year the defense would have looked even better because the other team would have had the ball less often. ....
+1 Everyone seems to forget that the best defense is a good offence. Last year our offense was pretty bad and we still managed to have one of the best defenses in the MAC. We can all expect big things this year from our defense. Even if our offence is just average this fall. I think we'll still have a shot at the MACC.

+1 to both OCF and Bobcat Bandit.
L.C.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:56 PM
Next, to compare theory to practice, I looked at the average number of first downs given up. If there is an advantage to the Cover-4, that's where it should show up. Long TDs don't give first downs, but long slow drives give a lot. I found that the 2014 Bobcats gave up an average of 20.5 first downs a game, while the 2013 Bobcats gave up an average of 20.54 first downs a game. Hmmm...

Digging further, I notice that in the first half of 2014 Ohio gave up an average of 23.5 first downs a game, but in the second half they gave up only 17.5 first downs a game. Now that's some progress. Down the stretch they gave up:
BG - 19
Akron - 18
WMU - 24
Buffalo - 7
NIU -19
Miami - 18

I would say that the defense got schooled by Marshall, and they improved as the year went on in how to play their new defense. I don't see any reason they can't pick up where they left off last fall.
C Money
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:06 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Every defensive strategy has it's strengths and weaknesses...
Which is kinda my point. It's fine, on one hand, to explain Mr. Basham's decreased pass rush effectiveness last year by pointing to a change in scheme. And it's OK to be fine with that change in scheme by pointing to the improvement in rush defense, so long as it's acknowledged that the change in scheme had negative consequences too. And it's not just that the secondary had to adjust to a new coverage philosophy; they also had to keep their coverages for longer, since there was less of a pass rush.

(Personally, I think the loss of Ty Branz had a bigger impact than we suspected it would in mid 2013. If we can get a good rush end opposite Basham, teams will have to play him more honest, and hopefully that means more sacks/hurries and fewer long passes against the secondary.)
L.C.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:36 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
... And it's not just that the secondary had to adjust to a new coverage philosophy; they also had to keep their coverages for longer, since there was less of a pass rush.

What you're missing is that 2013 was an anomaly. That was also an experiment with a different defense. In 2013 it was a change to the defensive line. Rather than having them focus on containing, and keeping the offensive line tied up, they had the defensive line penetrate and disrupt. It did pay off in sacks, but it also led to many long runs. Even if they had not switched to Cover-4 in 2014, I doubt if they would have continued the 2013 experiment as it was not successful, though it did give Basham some great numbers.

Ohio sacks by year:
2004 - 25 for 103 yards
2005 - 17 for 100 yards
2006 - 23 for 146 yards
2007 - 26 for 158 yards
2008 - 21 for 129 yards
2009 - 23 for 154 yards
2010 - 24 for 174 yards
2011 - 22 for 138 yards
2012 - 25 for 135 yards
2013 - 36 for 194 yards <=== DL experiment
2014 - 24 for 146 yards
C Money
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:56 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
... And it's not just that the secondary had to adjust to a new coverage philosophy; they also had to keep their coverages for longer, since there was less of a pass rush.

What you're missing is that 2013 was an anomaly...
I'm not missing it. I'm not disputing it. Yeah, the rush defense sucked in 2013, especially down the stretch in November when the wheels fell off of seemingly every aspect of the team.

My point is, in 2013 we did better against the pass than we did in 2014, and it's not all sunshine and lollipops just because we did better against the run in 2014 than we did in 2013.

And my further point is, although I agree that the change in scheme is part of that, I think a change in personnel is also part of it. And that due to the number of key personnel pieces along the defensive front we have to replace this year, I am not convinced that 2015's defensive results (against the run in particular) will necessarily pick up where the unit left off in 2014.

Go Bobcats.
L.C.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:35 PM
I think that the 2013 numbers against the pass were better partly because when you can run the ball, there is no need to pass it.

What I do think would be interesting would be to combine the 2013 and 2014 defensive "experiments". Use the Cover-4, and then have the defensive line disrupt. I believe that's how Michigan State plays it. That approach addresses the objection you raised; by hurrying the passer, the defenders who are 1:1 don't have to maintain coverage for as long. Even if the disruptive line leaves more openings, you have safeties up close who can help the linebackers fill the gaps.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:46 PM
C Money wrote:expand_more
... And it's not just that the secondary had to adjust to a new coverage philosophy; they also had to keep their coverages for longer, since there was less of a pass rush.

What you're missing is that 2013 was an anomaly...
I'm not missing it. I'm not disputing it. Yeah, the rush defense sucked in 2013, especially down the stretch in November when the wheels fell off of seemingly every aspect of the team.

My point is, in 2013 we did better against the pass than we did in 2014, and it's not all sunshine and lollipops just because we did better against the run in 2014 than we did in 2013.

And my further point is, although I agree that the change in scheme is part of that, I think a change in personnel is also part of it. And that due to the number of key personnel pieces along the defensive front we have to replace this year, I am not convinced that 2015's defensive results (against the run in particular) will necessarily pick up where the unit left off in 2014.

Go Bobcats.
What you keep avoiding is the improvement in scoring defense which was the trend at season's end. It is not rush def vs pass def it is the correct balance of the two to produce the best scoring defense. This season, with the losses at DT and added experience in the secondary, the balance will likely change. If the unit remains a top 1-3 scoring defense I will not be concerned about individual sacks or interceptions.
C Money
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Posted: 7/28/2015 4:08 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
What you keep avoiding is the improvement in scoring defense which was the trend at season's end. It is not rush def vs pass def it is the correct balance of the two to produce the best scoring defense. This season, with the losses at DT and added experience in the secondary, the balance will likely change. If the unit remains a top 1-3 scoring defense I will not be concerned about individual sacks or interceptions.

I'm not avoiding it. My second post on this thread expressly acknowledged that, yes, scoring defense improved on paper.

But I also believe that the scheme adjustment that led to us improving against the run also contributed to us worsening against the pass, specifically because we were unable to counter deep passing attacks. And when teams were able to throw deep against us, we got beat really really badly.

Maybe the secondary is better 1 on 1 this year and the scoring statistics remain at the top of the league, without a strong pass rush. But if I'm Idaho, Marshall, or SE Louisiana, I'm running 4 verts and wheel routes until we show we can stop it.

(Actually, no, if I'm Marshall, I think I'm giving the ball to the big RB play after play until we show we can stop it. And then I'm running 4 verts and wheel routes.)
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Posted: 7/28/2015 7:48 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Look at our record last year, the teams we played and the scores. I'd say we were pretty miserable.

Anyone who thinks that we were any better than mediocre==to me that's willfully ignoring.

I don't enjoy that. But I do acknowledge the truth.

Look at the teams we played. Look at our record.
Quote all the the stupid stats that you want.

Then, when you're done convincing yourselves of whatever you want to believe, look at our record and consider the quality of the opposition. (Hint: mediocre, lousy.)

Just look at the last drive by NIU when they beat us at home last year. Wasn't that a critical game--wouldn't we, at least, have gone to a bowl if we'd've beaten them?

They went thru us like butter.

For the millionth time, life is about key moments.

Whoopee--you had a tackle for loss on second and 6 in the 2nd quarter! Meaningless. Who cares if on the key plays you got worked.

Go back and view NIU's last drive against our defense.

The willful blindness here is truly impressive.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 9:36 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Look at our record last year, the teams we played and the scores. I'd say we were pretty miserable.

Anyone who thinks that we were any better than mediocre==to me that's willfully ignoring.

I don't enjoy that. But I do acknowledge the truth.

Look at the teams we played. Look at our record.
Quote all the the stupid stats that you want.

Then, when you're done convincing yourselves of whatever you want to believe, look at our record and consider the quality of the opposition. (Hint: mediocre, lousy.)

Just look at the last drive by NIU when they beat us at home last year. Wasn't that a critical game--wouldn't we, at least, have gone to a bowl if we'd've beaten them?

They went thru us like butter.

For the millionth time, life is about key moments.

Whoopee--you had a tackle for loss on second and 6 in the 2nd quarter! Meaningless. Who cares if on the key plays you got worked.

Go back and view NIU's last drive against our defense.

The willful blindness here is truly impressive.
Guess everyone involved owes you a big apology. Me I was saw a hell of a lot I was proud of. Kind of what I think being a fan is all about.
L.C.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 10:27 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
Guess everyone involved owes you a big apology. Me I was saw a hell of a lot I was proud of. Kind of what I think being a fan is all about.

I did as well. In fact, after the NIU touchdown Ohio was in the process of answering back, and was going through NIU's defense quite effectively until Landon Smith fumbled. Without that fumble Ohio would have had a first and ten at the NIU 32 with 1:57 left, having already gained 56 yards on 10 plays (including the ten gained by Smith before the fumble). It was certainly an inopportune fumble, but Ohio couldn't have played for the MAC Championship anyway.

I don't think most fans other than Monroe would disagree that Ohio improved as the year went on.
Last Edited: 7/28/2015 10:45:37 PM by L.C.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 7/28/2015 11:48 PM
NIU's 2nd last drive last year (their last being to run out the clock):

1st and 10 at their 30...penalty on NIU 15 yards ....pass completion 17, run for 11, pass for 12, pass for 7, run for 5, run for 12. run for 3, pass for 18


OUr last drive: 1st and 10 at our 22, incomplete, run for 1, run for 8, run for 4, run for 1, pass for 11, run for 1, run for 10, incomplete, completion for 10 but fumble turnover.


They had 5 plays over 10 yards and no plays under 3 yards. Excluding the penalty, average of 10+ yards on 8 plays.

We had 3 for 10 or more and 3 for under 3 yards (all for 1 yard). We had 10 plays for 4.6 yard avg.

Those are only a bad number comparison on a flat screen here.


If you watched that game (did you see it, L.C.?), it was knife thru butter versus stumble about as usual.


We improved somewhat toward the end of last year. Wow, that's so surprising and significant.
Last Edited: 7/28/2015 11:49:28 PM by Monroe Slavin
L.C.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 12:34 AM
Yes, I watched the game.

Given that the game was at home, I would have expected Ohio to try to use up the clock, and score with very little time left, forcing the game into overtime. Ohio had 6 minutes to kill, and they managed to kill 4 of those in moving 56 yards by mixing in some runs. With 32 yards left, and 1:57 left, if Ohio had scored, it probably would have been with very little time left, which is exactly what they seemed to be trying to do. Because of the fumble the strategy didn't work, but in my opinion it was a sound strategy.

I also believe that there was no advantage for Ohio to score quickly, and in fact a disadvantage. If Ohio had moved the ball quickly, and scored a TD with, say, 2:00 left, that would have left a no-lose opportunity for NIU. NIU could have tried to move for a last second field goal to win, and in no event could lose in regulation.
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 7/29/2015 3:19 AM
This has only a bit to do with scoring quickly or running out the clock and scoring at the last moment.

Of course, the latter is ideal. But first and foremost one must score. Our offense on that last drive was stodgy. Their last scoring drive was dynamic.

Again, not all moments are equal. Reputation and quality are about key moments. Reggie Jackson is "Mr. October" not 'Mr. June' --because it's performance in key moments that marks.

That's the way to view the last drives in the NIU game.

They did. We didn't.

That's the story.
L.C.
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:09 AM
Here we agree, Monroe. While the two teams played essentially evenly all day, because Ohio fumbled the ball on that final drive, Ohio lost the game, and therefore NIU won and was the better team that day. Yet that also makes my point as well. The Ohio team that lost to NIU only because of a failure to complete their final drive was a much better team than the one that lost by about 20 to teams like Kentucky, CMU, BG, and WMU, all teams that were no better than NIU.
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