Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Conference Awards
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L.C.
12/3/2015 11:16 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
I recall a similar thread where there was a list of all mac selections compared to wins over a period of time and the two lists matched up perfectly (most wins had most awards, least had least) with the glaring exception of Ohio that was near the top of list in wins and near the bottom of the list in individual awards. Anyone else remember that?
Yes I remember that thread. I did the math for this year, and awarded 5 points for first team, 3 points for 2d team, and 1 point for third team. Here are the results:

I did find the thread from last year:
http://tinyurl.com/p4l4b22
It's not the one that showed the correlation, but I do note that I used a different scoring system, 3-2-1 instead of 5-3-1, plus last year I gave bonus points for the special awards like player of the year. Last year's system is probably more reasonable, so I re-scored this year's awards to last year's system, and it cleans up the order a little bit, and the correlation to wins (except for Ohio) is more striking:

NIU 30pts 6 conference wins
BG 26, 7
Toledo 22, 6
WMU 21, 6
CMU 13, 6
Kent 12, 2
Ball St 12, 2
UMass 10, 2
Akron 9, 5
Buffalo 9, 3
Ohio 6, 5
Maimi 3, 2
EMU 3, 0

Also, from that thread, here's the Ohio history:
1990 - 0
1991 - 8
1992 - 7
1993 - 10
1994 - 4 (Average for Lichtenberg=5.8)
1995 - 4
1996 - 13
1997 - 9
1998 - 16
1999 - 8
2000 - 11 (Average for Grobe=10.2)
2001 - 3
2002 - 5
2003 - 0
2004 - 2 (Average for Knorr=2.5)
2005 - 10
2006 - 18
2007 - 14
2008 - 10
2009 - 21
2010 - 14
2011 - 9
2012 - 10
2013 - 13
2014 - 5
2015 - 6 (Average for Solich=11.8)

I think that part of the reason for this year's low Ohio numbers is that there is a strong bias towards giving these awards to Seniors. Many of Ohio's Seniors spent a lot of time hurt, such as Jovon Johnson, Devin Bass, Derrius Vick and Nathan Carpenter. Ohio has a lot of talent in the underclassmen, particularly the Sophomore class.

For what it's worth, here are the people they honored at ILB in addition to Poling, and they are almost all Seniors:
1st Team - Mays, Northern Illinois - Senior
1st Team - Valdez, Bowling Green - RS Freshman
2d Team - Ibe, EMU Senior
2d Team - Santos-Knox, UMass Senior
3rd Team - Dellinger, Kent Senior
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OU_Country
12/3/2015 12:27 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
1. Kind of sad and disappointing that we only have one player on the 1st & 2nd team combined.

2. Total joke that Quinton Poling is 3rd team...he was defensive player of the week like 8 times this year wasn't he????

1) The very first thing, besides Poling's slight, that came to my mind when I saw the list was this:

This HAS to speak to the state of Ohio Football in terms of coaching up talent, and/or recruiting very good talent, at least a little bit, doesn't it?


2) Agreed on Poling - seems like a flawed voting process if a guy getting the weekly award more than any other player did, while missing a few games. Love #MACtion influence in Cleveland!


OUVan wrote:expand_more
When I was coaching high school volleyball for 9 years, we never worried about awards because they were so subjective and often political. All we carried about were league championships and how far we could advance in the state tournament.
We're fans and this is a message board. It's our duty to bitch and moan and scream about the lack of respect.

+1. (as long as the bemoaning as some thought behind it)
Last Edited: 12/3/2015 12:27:57 PM by OU_Country
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L.C.
12/3/2015 1:21 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
...This HAS to speak to the state of Ohio Football in terms of coaching up talent, and/or recruiting very good talent, at least a little bit, doesn't it? ...

Of course, and it says it quite clearly, but, what is it saying? To me, since the awards are mostly given to Seniors, I think it's another view in the rear-view mirror, and we see yet another view of the drop in talent that we saw in the recruiting classes of 2010-2011.

As noted above, there is a strong correlation between the awards and how many conference wins each team had, except that Ohio is far out of place both of the last two years, near the bottom in awards, but finished 2d in the East both years. That forces you to take one of two views. One possibility is that Ohio is being intentionally slighted for some reason. The other possibility is that Ohio is winning games despite not having top talent.

My personal view is the latter one. I believe that there was a big drop in the quality of recruits in 2010-2011, and that since then there has been a steady rise, with 2014-2015 being the best classes yet. I also believe that through coaching and teamwork, Ohio has continued to win games despite not having top talent. The next two years we will have much better talent in the upper classes than we had the last two years, and as a consequence, I expect continuing improvement in results.

Should Solich be fired for having those bad recruiting classes? Perhaps, but if so, shouldn't he have been fired in 2011 when the problem happened? Probably, but of course, what the fans saw was that Ohio was at the top. Fans, unfortunately, are always are looking in the rear view mirror, and they couldn't see the developing problems yet. Note, however, that Solich did see the problems and changed recruiting coordinators, and changed how they did things. By 2012 they were doing much more with online methods, like twitter, for example, and the results improved.

Note also, that if Ohio had not changed their recruiting, and they were still getting classes like 2011-2012, I would agree with those that want a coaching change. The reason that I don't agree is that I think there already was a change, and that change took place in 2011-2012, and that we will are already starting to see the results, with a better 2015, and we will see more of them next year.
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bshot44
12/3/2015 1:41 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
2005 - 10
2006 - 18
2007 - 14
2008 - 10
2009 - 21
2010 - 14
2011 - 9
2012 - 10
2013 - 13
2014 - 5
2015 - 6 (Average for Solich=11.8)
Still startling that 2005-2010...avg 14.5
2011-2015....avg drops to 8.6

Purely coincidental that the avg drops these last four years where we haven't really competed for MACC?

Seniors or not....we're not rolling out high level players within our own league recently?

I know injuries have stumped us.....but also think (at least offensively) it's the staff being reluctant to stick with 1 guy. Ouellette would've run for 1200+ this year had he been starter from day one. But this RB-by-committee nonsense makes that impossible. Ohio was much more successful when McRae or Blankenship got the lion's share of the carries.....seeing what AJ did these last few games really has to make you question what the hell the thought process was for him NOT to be getting the lion's share from day one?

There's loyalty to seniors (Daz) and I get that....but when his numbers
weren't great....why not put the guy who gets results back there?

I really hope this changes in 2016....whether it's Irons or Brown or Ouellette.....i'd like to see us have a bell cow RB and capable guys behind him. The strategy of spreading carries to all the RBs hasn't allowed this offense to get into rhythm.....

Just my two cents
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Robert Fox
12/3/2015 2:23 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
The strategy of spreading carries to all the RBs hasn't allowed this offense to get into rhythm.....
It's not all on the RB. The line play has clearly changed throughout this season. Playing a full dose of Oullette during our 3-game skid would not likely have made much difference. I don't believe, over the past three games, Oullette suddenly became an All-MAC quality RB. He looked good on his own, yes, but you can't overlook the improved line play over those games.

On another point, one advantage to a committee of running backs is our response to injury. When Patterson went out, we were able to respond much better than if we had to break-in unproven backs.
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OU_Country
12/3/2015 2:38 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
...This HAS to speak to the state of Ohio Football in terms of coaching up talent, and/or recruiting very good talent, at least a little bit, doesn't it? ...

Of course, and it says it quite clearly, but, what is it saying? To me, since the awards are mostly given to Seniors, I think it's another view in the rear-view mirror, and we see yet another view of the drop in talent that we saw in the recruiting classes of 2010-2011.

As noted above, there is a strong correlation between the awards and how many conference wins each team had, except that Ohio is far out of place both of the last two years, near the bottom in awards, but finished 2d in the East both years. That forces you to take one of two views. One possibility is that Ohio is being intentionally slighted for some reason. The other possibility is that Ohio is winning games despite not having top talent.

My personal view is the latter one. I believe that there was a big drop in the quality of recruits in 2010-2011, and that since then there has been a steady rise, with 2014-2015 being the best classes yet. I also believe that through coaching and teamwork, Ohio has continued to win games despite not having top talent. The next two years we will have much better talent in the upper classes than we had the last two years, and as a consequence, I expect continuing improvement in results.

Should Solich be fired for having those bad recruiting classes? Perhaps, but if so, shouldn't he have been fired in 2011 when the problem happened? Probably, but of course, what the fans saw was that Ohio was at the top. Fans, unfortunately, are always are looking in the rear view mirror, and they couldn't see the developing problems yet. Note, however, that Solich did see the problems and changed recruiting coordinators, and changed how they did things. By 2012 they were doing much more with online methods, like twitter, for example, and the results improved.

Note also, that if Ohio had not changed their recruiting, and they were still getting classes like 2011-2012, I would agree with those that want a coaching change. The reason that I don't agree is that I think there already was a change, and that change took place in 2011-2012, and that we will are already starting to see the results, with a better 2015, and we will see more of them next year.

Thanks for the thoughts LC. You make some great points. As a self proclaimed non-follower of football recruiting, I couldn't possibly offer an intelligent opinion on the caliber of recruiting classes. It's been talked about all year though, which is why I posed the question. The only area I continue to ask about in terms of talent is the QB position. I still think OUr staff could do better with recruiting and/or developing that position. I also think it's an area that MUST be addressed if we're to see an Ohio team that has results better than 7-5 or 8-4. I'm saying this simply based on what I've seen on the field from our QBs post Tettleton compared to peer teams in the MAC.

I'm also not in the Fire Solich camp. I'm in the camp of Frank needs to really evaluate what they're doing, so that they can get to a point where they're competitive with the top tier teams more often. Something has to change. I think we can all see that. I'm not remotely qualified to say how and what, other than the eyeball test of the QB and maybe a couple skill position players.
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L.C.
12/3/2015 2:53 PM
Even though I follow recruiting, I don't claim to be able to truly analyze a class. The last few years I have started watching the film myself more, and seeing if I can do any better than the ratings services, who don't seem to do all that well. To me the most accurate gauge is probably the comments Solich makes about them in the fall. In 2013 he said that he thought that class was very good. In 2014 he said it was the best class he'd had at Ohio. In 2015 he said that there wasn't even one player that they got where he might be inclined to even think that there might have been a mistake.

As for QB recruiting and development, as you know there was not long ago a change in QB coach. Someone made the point that under Gdowski you couldn't see a lot of improvement in QBs from year to year, and noted as an example that TT's best year was as a Sophomore. Now, I think Spague and Vick both looked substantially better this year than last (at least while Vick was healthy), so, so far at least, Isphording seems to be doing a good job at development.

What about recruiting? The first real QB recruit with Isphording as the QB coach was Maxwell. I was very impressed with his high school film, and I think he's going to be great. No one else was impressed at all, so I'm alone in that opinion. Time will tell who is right. There is no QB recruit in this year's class yet, so I have no clue if there will be one at all, or, if there is, if it will be a JUCO. I'm just waiting, like everyone else, to see what happens.
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bshot44
12/3/2015 2:55 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
The strategy of spreading carries to all the RBs hasn't allowed this offense to get into rhythm.....
It's not all on the RB. The line play has clearly changed throughout this season. Playing a full dose of Oullette during our 3-game skid would not likely have made much difference. I don't believe, over the past three games, Oullette suddenly became an All-MAC quality RB. He looked good on his own, yes, but you can't overlook the improved line play over those games.

On another point, one advantage to a committee of running backs is our response to injury. When Patterson went out, we were able to respond much better than if we had to break-in unproven backs.
Yes...a healthier OL at the end of the season certainly helped Ouellette....

But it still bothers me that once we got to MAC play....both Patterson and Ouellette were healthy....so tell me why AJ got 21 carries thru the first 5 MAC games while Patterson got 49...and averaged a paltry 3.02 ypc

It's obvious he wasn't getting the job done (even if the OL was not performing at a high level)

I just think during the first 5 MAC games we might have seen a little more success had AJ been given more carries (or the bulk of the carries)

In four years Patterson NEVER had a 100 yard rushing game...

In 2 years...AJ has 5

I'm sorry....I think Daz is talented and has a role....but I just don't see it as a feature RB.
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Robert Fox
12/3/2015 3:29 PM
Your question makes sense, and I can only speculate, but I assume the coaches planned to use Patterson and Oullette in different situations: Patterson as a scat-back/outside threat. Oullette as a power back.

When Patterson went out, Oullette's role was re-evaluated and he carried the ball more, expanding his role beyond just power-back circumstances.

Again, that's all speculation. I could be way off.

As for Patterson's history of carrying the ball more often, I suspect that has as much to do with his leadership role as his pure talent.
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OU_Country
12/3/2015 3:36 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Even though I follow recruiting, I don't claim to be able to truly analyze a class. The last few years I have started watching the film myself more, and seeing if I can do any better than the ratings services, who don't seem to do all that well. To me the most accurate gauge is probably the comments Solich makes about them in the fall. In 2013 he said that he thought that class was very good. In 2014 he said it was the best class he'd had at Ohio. In 2015 he said that there wasn't even one player that they got where he might be inclined to even think that there might have been a mistake.

As for QB recruiting and development, as you know there was not long ago a change in QB coach. Someone made the point that under Gdowski you couldn't see a lot of improvement in QBs from year to year, and noted as an example that TT's best year was as a Sophomore. Now, I think Spague and Vick both looked substantially better this year than last (at least while Vick was healthy), so, so far at least, Isphording seems to be doing a good job at development.

What about recruiting? The first real QB recruit with Isphording as the QB coach was Maxwell. I was very impressed with his high school film, and I think he's going to be great. No one else was impressed at all, so I'm alone in that opinion. Time will tell who is right. There is no QB recruit in this year's class yet, so I have no clue if there will be one at all, or, if there is, if it will be a JUCO. I'm just waiting, like everyone else, to see what happens.

Thanks for the analysis and thoughts. It's more than I know, for sure.
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allen
12/3/2015 4:24 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
Your question makes sense, and I can only speculate, but I assume the coaches planned to use Patterson and Oullette in different situations: Patterson as a scat-back/outside threat. Oullette as a power back.

When Patterson went out, Oullette's role was re-evaluated and he carried the ball more, expanding his role beyond just power-back circumstances.

Again, that's all speculation. I could be way off.

As for Patterson's history of carrying the ball more often, I suspect that has as much to do with his leadership role as his pure talent.
The coaches need to play the best players period. They are loyal to the backs that they and we know, they leave yards on the field every time they let our best backs sit. All of the backs can play, but they need to let the best back get in rhythm. The best back in my opinion is not AJ or Daz. AJ is pretty darn good, but we have a back that could be the best in the conference. Daz has tremendous heart and could start on half the MAC teams, but he should not have been starting on this one.

Why recruit when you won't play the best players?
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Bcat2
12/3/2015 4:40 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Your question makes sense, and I can only speculate, but I assume the coaches planned to use Patterson and Oullette in different situations: Patterson as a scat-back/outside threat. Oullette as a power back.

When Patterson went out, Oullette's role was re-evaluated and he carried the ball more, expanding his role beyond just power-back circumstances.

Again, that's all speculation. I could be way off.

As for Patterson's history of carrying the ball more often, I suspect that has as much to do with his leadership role as his pure talent.
The coaches need to play the best players period. They are loyal to the backs that they and we know, they leave yards on the field every time they let our best backs sit. All of the backs can play, but they need to let the best back get in rhythm. The best back in my opinion is not AJ or Daz. AJ is pretty darn good, but we have a back that could be the best in the conference. Daz has tremendous heart and could start on half the MAC teams, but he should not have been starting on this one.
In Your Humble Opinion.

Sorry, but, there are others closer to the situation who have more information and experience. Forgive me if I defer to their decisions.
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allen
12/3/2015 4:46 PM
We will see. We need to start winning in the living room and be courageous and play the best players. If we want to win, our players have to compete for their positions.
Last Edited: 12/3/2015 4:47:34 PM by allen
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Bcat2
12/3/2015 4:58 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
We will see. We need to start winning in the living room and be courageous and play the best players. If we want to win, our players have to compete for their positions.
You just continue to deny this team the success from their hard work. 8-4, streak of W3, scoreboard on NIU.
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L.C.
12/3/2015 5:06 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
We will see. We need to start winning in the living room and be courageous and play the best players. If we want to win, our players have to compete for their positions.

This is a puzzling comment. Obviously the players compete for positions, and equally obviously the coaches play the ones that they think give them the best chance of winning. Solich himself was a running back, and then was one of the premier running backs coaches in the country. He has coached many, many NFL running backs, so I tend to think he knows what he is doing and will develop running backs in an appropriate way.

I know you think Irons is great. I also know that, based on his comments, Solich thinks that Irons WILL be great. That's really the difference.
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OhioCatFan
12/3/2015 5:09 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
. . . I know you think Irons is great. I also know that, based on his comments, Solich thinks that Irons WILL be great. That's really the difference.
+1

[And, this +1 comes from a guy that really wanted to see much more Irons than we saw, but I'm an amateur and, as L.C. points out, if Frank knows anything he knows how to evaluate running backs. I defer to him on this call.]
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Mark Lembright '85
12/3/2015 6:26 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Your question makes sense, and I can only speculate, but I assume the coaches planned to use Patterson and Oullette in different situations: Patterson as a scat-back/outside threat. Oullette as a power back.

When Patterson went out, Oullette's role was re-evaluated and he carried the ball more, expanding his role beyond just power-back circumstances.

Again, that's all speculation. I could be way off.

As for Patterson's history of carrying the ball more often, I suspect that has as much to do with his leadership role as his pure talent.
The coaches need to play the best players period. They are loyal to the backs that they and we know, they leave yards on the field every time they let our best backs sit. All of the backs can play, but they need to let the best back get in rhythm. The best back in my opinion is not AJ or Daz. AJ is pretty darn good, but we have a back that could be the best in the conference. Daz has tremendous heart and could start on half the MAC teams, but he should not have been starting on this one.

Why recruit when you won't play the best players?
This is why coaches shouldn't read fan messageboards; other than LC does any of us know what we're talking about vis-a-vis coaching the team? I know for a fact I don't and I admit that freely.

Allen believes Ohio is crazy for not starting Maleek Irons I presume. Several posts earlier, BSHOT44 is just as adamant, but not that Ohio was stupid not for starting Irons always but for not starting AJ. Which one is right? Both I'm sure believe they're informed and truly believe they know what they're talking about. But one is wrong. By definition both can't be right.
Last Edited: 12/3/2015 8:05:51 PM by Mark Lembright '85
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L.C.
12/3/2015 6:40 PM
Whoa, now. I'm not a coach. I'm just a fan like you. I did play a little football, but only a little. My only qualification is that I try hard to understand what is going on, and that I like to watch plays in slow motion, understanding what each player did on a given play, rather than just watching the ballplayer. Every player has a job to do, and if any one player didn't get their job done it impacts the really of the play.
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Mark Lembright '85
12/3/2015 7:20 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Whoa, now. I'm not a coach. I'm just a fan like you. I did play a little football, but only a little. My only qualification is that I try hard to understand what is going on, and that I like to watch plays in slow motion, understanding what each player did on a given play, rather than just watching the ballplayer. Every player has a job to do, and if any one player didn't get their job done it impacts the really of the play.
I didn't say you were a coach (although I'd hire you); I said you knew what you're talking about! :) Me on the other hand, not so much......
Last Edited: 12/3/2015 7:23:13 PM by Mark Lembright '85
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Mike Johnson
12/3/2015 8:25 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Whoa, now. I'm not a coach. I'm just a fan like you. I did play a little football, but only a little. My only qualification is that I try hard to understand what is going on, and that I like to watch plays in slow motion, understanding what each player did on a given play, rather than just watching the ballplayer. Every player has a job to do, and if any one player didn't get their job done it impacts the really of the play.
So true about "every player has a job to do." Back in pre-history (my playing days)many teams broke the huddle saying "Let's go." Not us. We broke saying "Go Long!" We knew that if every one of 11 players did their job, chances were good for a long gain.
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allen
12/3/2015 9:11 PM
We will see. had Russell not got injured, Poling would not be starting. Russell was a good player, but Poling is great.
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Bcat2
12/3/2015 10:57 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
We will see. had Russell not got injured, Poling would not be starting. Russell was a good player, but Poling is great.
allen, whatever spins your narrative. Russell likely would still be inside. Perhaps Brown would be sharing with Russell and Poling would be outside or Poling might even have played safety, but, Poling would be on the field with Russell and the defense would be that much better. Why does every discussion have to be negative when Ohio is 8-4, the streak is W3, and they have scoreboard on NIU?
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allen
12/4/2015 1:57 AM
Bcat2, we have already established that you are not in any emotional condition to accept the truth. If a player were to drop three passes in a row and somebody commented on it, you would cry and say that person was not a true bobcat fan. I don't know your deal, but whatever it is, it is not reality.

I will repeat again, I love our coaches, but they have their flaws. We sure have some people on this board that would make great political advisors or publicists. The way you spin 2-12 against winning MAC programs in the last four years, the fact we will be number 8 in the MAC in recruiting and baring witness to bigger and faster players riding the pine. I love the coaches, they have to make adjustments. They ask the players to believe and be relentless, I ask them to believe and be relentless in the kids living room's, admit that they do not know how to recruit quarterbacks and get someone in here that can. A strong arm does not make you a good quarter back. Ask Brown's fans about Spergon Wynn. The fact that we have four qb's who we offered scholarships to and a walk on, whom we only offered preferred status to beats them out.

These are the cold hard facts, we will not win a championship until we do this. Lets go Cats.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 2:08:27 AM by allen
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bshot44
12/4/2015 9:17 AM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
Your question makes sense, and I can only speculate, but I assume the coaches planned to use Patterson and Oullette in different situations: Patterson as a scat-back/outside threat. Oullette as a power back.

When Patterson went out, Oullette's role was re-evaluated and he carried the ball more, expanding his role beyond just power-back circumstances.

Again, that's all speculation. I could be way off.

As for Patterson's history of carrying the ball more often, I suspect that has as much to do with his leadership role as his pure talent.
The coaches need to play the best players period. They are loyal to the backs that they and we know, they leave yards on the field every time they let our best backs sit. All of the backs can play, but they need to let the best back get in rhythm. The best back in my opinion is not AJ or Daz. AJ is pretty darn good, but we have a back that could be the best in the conference. Daz has tremendous heart and could start on half the MAC teams, but he should not have been starting on this one.

Why recruit when you won't play the best players?
This is why coaches shouldn't read fan messageboards; other than LC does any of us know what we're talking about vis-a-vis coaching the team? I know for a fact I don't and I admit that freely.

Allen believes Ohio is crazy for not starting Maleek Irons I presume. Several posts earlier, BSHOT44 is just as adamant, but not that Ohio was stupid not for starting Irons always but for not starting AJ. Which one is right? Both I'm sure believe they're informed and truly believe they know what they're talking about. But one is wrong. By definition both can't be right.
I agree with the belief that Irons can be great...but I didn't see a large sample size from him to say he should start this year. It's almost total speculation on him...what we've seen has shown potential to be a great RB.

But I have seen a really large sample size from Ouellette and a larger sample size from Patterson....and it's not hard for me to draw the conclusion that Ouellette should've been getting the start and the bulk of the carries over Patterson. I think if Ohio would've used him more in the first five games of the MAC season like they did in the last three we might have seen different results.
Last Edited: 12/4/2015 9:18:18 AM by bshot44
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allen
12/4/2015 9:46 AM
When Poling got injured, they moved AJ to OLB. The reason why was because they found a place where they could plug him into the starting lineup. You don't move your best running back to linebacker. They know they have better tailbacks, but they want to find a spot for AJ. Let's be honest, AJ did a great job last year and they feel he deserves to play somewhere. Daz was a senior that did everything right so he had to play. The coaches are loyal to their guys, Urban Meyer did the same thing with Jones, but at some point the best players have to play. AJ is a great back amongst great backs.
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