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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: MAC Championship or Bowl Win?
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OhioBobcat
12/27/2015 10:35 PM
Ohio has won 5 MAC Championships but none since 1968, and has recently won a pair of bowl game but both were in the last few years. Which is more important to you?
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ou79
12/28/2015 12:33 AM
I want both on a regular basis.
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OUcats82
12/28/2015 9:15 AM
I would say MAC Championship. It shows a consistent level of excellent play for many consecutive weeks to get the team to a big game and win it when it mattered most. Conference championships are not subject to the ebb and flow of bowl game existence, either. If you look at a lot of our bowls hanging up in Peden pre Frank many if not all are renamed or defunct.

In this day and age you could be a bowl champion but only sport a 7-6 record.

There is a lot of media benefit too as tt also keeps your accomplishment up in lights for several years following when they will flash graphics on TV or footage, reference it in printed articles etc. They may show a listing of recent champs and show the names etc.

Let's not forget being featured in the next installment of the MAC's Saturday morning diner commercials!
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Pataskala
12/28/2015 9:51 AM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
In this day and age you could be a bowl champion but only sport a 7-6 record.
San Jose St was a "bowl champion" this year, and finished 6-7. Same for Nebraska. Minnesota might be, too. With all the bowls and the likelihood of more losing teams getting into postseason, winning a bowl has lost its luster. I'll take a MAC championship any day.
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UpSan Bobcat
12/28/2015 9:52 AM
I think it's clear that bowl games are so common, that winning one isn't a huge accomplishment anymore. Half or more of MAC teams go to bowl games each year, so even if you're an average MAC team, there's a 50 percent chance of going and a 50 percent chance of winning. A mediocre MAC school should win a bowl game every four years. There are 13 (soon-to-be 12) MAC schools competing for the title, so that is a much more difficult thing to accomplish.
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OhioBobcat
12/28/2015 1:16 PM
I agree with the majority of you too. Winning a MAC Championship is much more important to me than a win in some run of the mill bowl game.
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ou79
12/28/2015 1:21 PM
Seriously, we should expect and demand both on a regular basis.
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TWT
12/28/2015 1:25 PM
ou79 wrote:expand_more
Seriously, we should expect and demand both on a regular basis.
+1
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OhioBobcat
12/28/2015 2:49 PM
ou79 wrote:expand_more
Seriously, we should expect and demand both on a regular basis.
I guess that would depend on what everyone's idea of a regular basis is. I feel winning a MAC Championship at least once every 10 years and winning a bowl every 3-4 years is a reasonable regular basis. To be clear, I said winning and not just appearing in the MACC or a bowl. Had Ohio won one of the 3 MACC games it lost in recent years, I think many would feel better about the program instead of dwelling on 1968. And for the bowl wins in 2011 and 2012, since they were the only two in the history of Ohio football, I think it's safe to say they fall into my idea of a regular basis.
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Monroe Slavin
12/28/2015 3:55 PM
How can MACC not be the prime goal? If not, leave the conference.

It's an excellent point that a lot more MAC teams are in, and win, bowl games than the MAC title game each year.

Imagine if we had a coach for 11 years and he didn't win a MACC. Wouldn't we consider him very average, at best?
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D.A.
12/28/2015 4:46 PM
Serious question here: we have been in ten MACC's/bowl games in the modern era. Have we ever been favored in the point spread?
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OhioBobcat
12/28/2015 4:59 PM
D.A. wrote:expand_more
Serious question here: we have been in ten MACC's/bowl games in the modern era. Have we ever been favored in the point spread?
Yes, Ohio was a 3 point favorite vs Marshall in the Pizza Bowl in 2009.
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OhioBobcat
12/28/2015 5:04 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
How can MACC not be the prime goal? If not, leave the conference.

It's an excellent point that a lot more MAC teams are in, and win, bowl games than the MAC title game each year.

Imagine if we had a coach for 11 years and he didn't win a MACC. Wouldn't we consider him very average, at best?
The MACC is every team's goal at the start of the year, but only 2 teams can get there, and only 1 can win it, whereas 5-7 teams can or do make a bowl each year now. Obviously, it's much, much easier to get to a bowl than it is to the MACC.
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Bcat2
12/28/2015 6:14 PM
Obviously not a comparison of goals with equal likelihood of occurrence. A 5-7 Nebraska just won a bowl. Bowl games, then winning bowl games are stepping stones to joining the elite group schools who take turns winning conference.
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allen
12/28/2015 8:58 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Seriously, we should expect and demand both on a regular basis.
+1
+1
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Pataskala
12/29/2015 10:28 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Imagine if we had a coach for 11 years and he didn't win a MACC. Wouldn't we consider him very average, at best?
Against my better judgement, I'm going to bite on Monroe's effort to hijack this thread.

No, I wouldn't consider the coach to be average at best. Not when the coach's MAC record is 53-35, his teams have had four winning MAC seasons vs two losing seasons, and have been to three MACCGs, tied for the most of any MAC East school in that 11-year period. I would consider the coach to be above average.

But let's look at one of the "premier" programs in the MAC: in the same 11-year period, this "premier" program has had six seasons of 6-2 or 7-1 in MAC play, has compiled a 55-33 record in the MAC, shows up frequently in national polls, but hasn't even won its own division -- no appearances in the MACCG, let alone winning a championship -- because they keep losing to the same team. Based on your own criterion, Monroe, Toledo would be "very average," at best.

There's a lot more that goes into success than just winning one game.

I'm sure you'll have more to say, Monroe. But you can have the last word on this issue, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to play your game and make this only about the coach.
Last Edited: 12/29/2015 10:29:18 AM by Pataskala
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ou79
12/29/2015 10:53 AM
Of course another example would be Marshall who after having been thrown out of the Conference was admitted back into it in 1997 and proceeded to win the MACC in '97, '98, '99, '00 and '02 prior to exciting the Conference in 2005. Perhaps we could aim a little higher than no MACC? How long do we continue along OUr current path and expect nothing better? By the way, speaking of Toledo, since 1995 they have won the MAC in '95, '01 and '04.
Last Edited: 12/29/2015 10:58:31 AM by ou79
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bshot44
12/29/2015 11:25 AM
How dare you deny the success of the hard working players from Nebraska, San Jose State and Minnesota. DO NOT DENY THEM THEIR SUCCESS! SCOREBOARD! LOUD NOISES! I LOVE LAMP!
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Pataskala
12/29/2015 11:42 AM
ou79 wrote:expand_more
Of course another example would be Marshall who after having been thrown out of the Conference was admitted back into it in 1997 and proceeded to win the MACC in '97, '98, '99, '00 and '02 prior to exciting the Conference in 2005. Perhaps we could aim a little higher than no MACC? How long do we continue along OUr current path and expect nothing better? By the way, speaking of Toledo, since 1995 they have won the MAC in '95, '01 and '04.
Right, but the discussion was about the past 11 years. I'm not saying we shouldn't aim to get a MACC. But that shouldn't be the only criterion for rating a coach, a staff, a team or a program.
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bshot44
12/29/2015 12:18 PM
ou79 wrote:expand_more
Of course another example would be Marshall who after having been thrown out of the Conference was admitted back into it in 1997 and proceeded to win the MACC in '97, '98, '99, '00 and '02 prior to exciting the Conference in 2005. Perhaps we could aim a little higher than no MACC? How long do we continue along OUr current path and expect nothing better? By the way, speaking of Toledo, since 1995 they have won the MAC in '95, '01 and '04.
And Toledo has gone thru three head coaches since Frank took over.

Amstutz won MAC West in 2005....and then fell on his face the next three years (13-23) before he resigned (but did have four MAC West titles and two MAC titles under his rather large belt in 8 years)

Tim Beckman came in for almost three years and then bolted for Illinois after going 21-16

Then Matt Campbell....who never got a MAC West title (mainly because of NIU dominance) but he did alright for himself going 35-15

That's 1 MAC West title....0 MAC titles....79-57 overall since Frank took over.

Frank.....3 MAC East titles...0 MAC titles....80-61

Not a lot of difference.....until you dig a little deeper.

Toledo bowl games: 4-2 since 2005
Ohio bowl games: 2-5 since 2005

Top 25 wins:
Toledo: 3 (3-8 since 2005) ***has played at least one ranked team every year since 2008
Ohio: 0 (0-5 since 2005) ****has played 3 ranked teams since 2008

Ranked in Top 25
Toledo: twice (peaked at #19 in 2015)
Ohio: once (peaked at #23 in 2012)

In MAC
Toledo 55-33 [and that's with horrid stretch of Amstutz/Beckman from 2006-2009 (11-21)]
***Since 2010....38-10
Ohio 53-35
***Since 2010....29-19

Gimmie Toledo's resume over Ohio's since 2005.

Been meaning to look at these two for a while considering Toledo's MACC drought. Man they seem to have accomplished more and are far betting ground recently. They are trending up while Ohio is flatlined since 2010.
Last Edited: 12/29/2015 12:23:31 PM by bshot44
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BillyTheCat
12/29/2015 12:38 PM
OUcats82 wrote:expand_more
I would say MAC Championship. It shows a consistent level of excellent play for many consecutive weeks to get the team to a big game and win it when it mattered most. Conference championships are not subject to the ebb and flow of bowl game existence, either. If you look at a lot of our bowls hanging up in Peden pre Frank many if not all are renamed or defunct.

In this day and age you could be a bowl champion but only sport a 7-6 record.

There is a lot of media benefit too as tt also keeps your accomplishment up in lights for several years following when they will flash graphics on TV or footage, reference it in printed articles etc. They may show a listing of recent champs and show the names etc.

Let's not forget being featured in the next installment of the MAC's Saturday morning diner commercials!
Or a 6-7 record
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L.C.
12/29/2015 12:45 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I would say MAC Championship. It shows a consistent level of excellent play for many consecutive weeks to get the team to a big game and win it when it mattered most. Conference championships are not subject to the ebb and flow of bowl game existence, either. If you look at a lot of our bowls hanging up in Peden pre Frank many if not all are renamed or defunct.

In this day and age you could be a bowl champion but only sport a 7-6 record.

There is a lot of media benefit too as tt also keeps your accomplishment up in lights for several years following when they will flash graphics on TV or footage, reference it in printed articles etc. They may show a listing of recent champs and show the names etc.

Let's not forget being featured in the next installment of the MAC's Saturday morning diner commercials!
Or a 6-7 record

For what its worth, Akron was the MAC Champs at 7-6 in 2005, and Buffalo was in 2008 at 8-6.
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allen
12/29/2015 12:47 PM
We were not, so it does not matter.
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GoCats105
12/29/2015 1:10 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
Of course another example would be Marshall who after having been thrown out of the Conference was admitted back into it in 1997 and proceeded to win the MACC in '97, '98, '99, '00 and '02 prior to exciting the Conference in 2005. Perhaps we could aim a little higher than no MACC? How long do we continue along OUr current path and expect nothing better? By the way, speaking of Toledo, since 1995 they have won the MAC in '95, '01 and '04.
And Toledo has gone thru three head coaches since Frank took over.

Amstutz won MAC West in 2005....and then fell on his face the next three years (13-23) before he resigned (but did have four MAC West titles and two MAC titles under his rather large belt in 8 years)

Tim Beckman came in for almost three years and then bolted for Illinois after going 21-16

Then Matt Campbell....who never got a MAC West title (mainly because of NIU dominance) but he did alright for himself going 35-15

That's 1 MAC West title....0 MAC titles....79-57 overall since Frank took over.

Frank.....3 MAC East titles...0 MAC titles....80-61

Not a lot of difference.....until you dig a little deeper.

Toledo bowl games: 4-2 since 2005
Ohio bowl games: 2-5 since 2005

Top 25 wins:
Toledo: 3 (3-8 since 2005) ***has played at least one ranked team every year since 2008
Ohio: 0 (0-5 since 2005) ****has played 3 ranked teams since 2008

Ranked in Top 25
Toledo: twice (peaked at #19 in 2015)
Ohio: once (peaked at #23 in 2012)

In MAC
Toledo 55-33 [and that's with horrid stretch of Amstutz/Beckman from 2006-2009 (11-21)]
***Since 2010....38-10
Ohio 53-35
***Since 2010....29-19

Gimmie Toledo's resume over Ohio's since 2005.

Been meaning to look at these two for a while considering Toledo's MACC drought. Man they seem to have accomplished more and are far betting ground recently. They are trending up while Ohio is flatlined since 2010.
Let's not forget all of this is happening at Toledo after a point shaving scandal that could have buried the program. In fact, it's kind of impressive that both Toledo's football and basketball programs have not only survived the scandal, but they are thriving.
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doubledribble
12/29/2015 2:35 PM
MAC championship is a major goal of the program, but to believe that this is the only goal of the program shows a complete non-understanding of what college athletics is all about. There is much much more to a successful program than to only focus on 1 primary goal. If you do not understand this, than you do not understand college athletics and have no clue about the much broader picture that our program should paint. It is really getting old to continue to hear from a couple of posters who can see no further than 1 primary goal. Glad you are not in coaching and mentoring my kids as they are experiencing college athletics and all the "life's lessons" that young people must navigate !
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