Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Contested Positions for 2016
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allen
12/28/2015 5:18 PM
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
Last Edited: 12/28/2015 5:19:07 PM by allen
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Bcat2
12/28/2015 6:26 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
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allen
12/28/2015 6:30 PM
Explosive plays are plays over 20 yards. Our safeties have been torched, have taken bad angles and missed tackles and should not inherit their positions. These are probably outstanding young men that did not get the job done.
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L.C.
12/28/2015 7:07 PM
Part of the reason for so many explosive plays is the switch to the cover 4. In the traditional cover 2 the safeties are backups, and help prevent big plays. The cover 2 is a bend but don't break defense. Give them three to four yards every play, but avoid the big plays, and figure that sooner or later the offense will make a mistake.

By contrast the cover 4 is designed to contest every yard, trying for the three and out. The safeties have responsibilities their own and are often not available to backup plays. The result is more stops for no gain, but also giving up more big gains.
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allen
12/28/2015 7:10 PM
The truth is they were not that good, they missed probably 75 tackles all together, I have seen them turn their backs and run down field to chase ball carriers. This position needs to be upgraded.
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Bcat2
12/28/2015 7:14 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Explosive plays are plays over 20 yards. Our safeties have been torched, have taken bad angles and missed tackles and should not inherit their positions. These are probably outstanding young men that did not get the job done.
How many explosive plays did the top defenses allow? How about their Pass Defense Efficiency? Toledo led the MAC with 119.3. Ohio was 120.7. Pass Defense CMU leads the MAC at 190 yds allowed per game, Ohio is back at 209 per game. Those numbers are pretty good. You might be right, but, these other numbers don't indicate they were getting torched. What does 70 explosive plays really mean? When were they occurring, perhaps those games when Poling was out?
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allen
12/28/2015 7:58 PM
look at the tapes, look at all the missed tackles on running backs
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Bcat2
12/28/2015 8:32 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
look at the tapes, look at all the missed tackles on running backs
Anyone out there have a story about that RB that made you look so stupid? Be honest.
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allen
12/28/2015 8:48 PM
If that position does not improve, we do not win the MAC. Lets go Cats, strive for excellence and not coddling.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
12/28/2015 9:26 PM
No doubt the amount of big plays on the ground was disturbing. Seemed like we either flat out stuffed somebody, or got completely gashed. If someone made it to the second level, they were gone. long runs cost us the Minnesota game, the bowl game, and don't even get me started about WMU. I understand that our D might be high risk/high reward, but there has to be an adjustment in there somewhere.
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allen
12/28/2015 10:14 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
No doubt the amount of big plays on the ground was disturbing. Seemed like we either flat out stuffed somebody, or got completely gashed. If someone made it to the second level, they were gone. long runs cost us the Minnesota game, the bowl game, and don't even get me started about WMU. I understand that our D might be high risk/high reward, but there has to be an adjustment in there somewhere.

+1
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L.C.
12/28/2015 10:51 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
No doubt the amount of big plays on the ground was disturbing. Seemed like we either flat out stuffed somebody, or got completely gashed. If someone made it to the second level, they were gone. long runs cost us the Minnesota game, the bowl game, and don't even get me started about WMU. I understand that our D might be high risk/high reward, but there has to be an adjustment in there somewhere.

Exactly. That's a consequence of the Cover-4, which is why I have very mixed emotions about it. I do think that the coaches are still learning, and making improvements. The D didn't get gashed as often in 2015 as they did in 2014, and FWIW, Michigan State seems to rarely get gashed with it, so I hope they can continue to learn ways to prevent those gashes.
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GoCats105
12/29/2015 7:22 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
No doubt the amount of big plays on the ground was disturbing. Seemed like we either flat out stuffed somebody, or got completely gashed. If someone made it to the second level, they were gone. long runs cost us the Minnesota game, the bowl game, and don't even get me started about WMU. I understand that our D might be high risk/high reward, but there has to be an adjustment in there somewhere.

Exactly. That's a consequence of the Cover-4, which is why I have very mixed emotions about it. I do think that the coaches are still learning, and making improvements. The D didn't get gashed as often in 2015 as they did in 2014, and FWIW, Michigan State seems to rarely get gashed with it, so I hope they can continue to learn ways to prevent those gashes.
For the Cover 4 to work, the middle of your defense has to be an absolute rock and your DBs have to have the ability to make plays on an island. One thing I notice about Michigan State's defense is that their LBs are absolute studs and they've been producing dynamite corners as well.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
12/29/2015 9:44 AM
Chris Brown took a nice look at Dantonio's and Narduzzi's system a couple years ago.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/michigan-state-oregon-p... ]

Quote:expand_more
MSU’s scheme depends on the safeties, who have to make the most adjustments.


Quote:expand_more
What’s more, they know that great D isn’t the function of a magical scheme; it’s about mastering fundamentals and playing with discipline and effort.


That second excerpt tells me Ohio has to get better in all those things to make this defense work. Because there are way too many breakdowns right now for Ohio to be playing an all-or-nothing defense at this point.
Last Edited: 12/29/2015 9:47:42 AM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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L.C.
12/29/2015 10:41 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
For the Cover 4 to work, the middle of your defense has to be an absolute rock and your DBs have to have the ability to make plays on an island. One thing I notice about Michigan State's defense is that their LBs are absolute studs and they've been producing dynamite corners as well.

I agree with this, and I agree with Brian that it's a risky change to switch to this when Ohio doesn't have a bunch of stud defensive players. The flip side, however, is that defensive players love to attack. The shift to cover-4 resulted in some dramatically better defensive recruits last year, and I expect that to continue. Thus, some of these problems may resolve themselves as these better players work into the rotation.
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bshot44
12/29/2015 2:02 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

Here are a few of the explosive plays vs. Ohio this year....enjoy:

Toran Davis....the whiff: http://es.pn/1Zi4PCy

Davis takes a really bad angle: http://es.pn/1RwFUcS

Ian Wells....ummm....nice tackle?: http://es.pn/1QH4uaM

Brent Layton....toast: http://es.pn/1OpKoBm

More bad angles...Davis gets sucked up way too far...Layton gets pancaked: http://es.pn/1HalRgZ

More awful tackling (Davis, Jovan, Layton) + bad angles from Carpenter, Wells: http://es.pn/1WBa1Oz

Carpenter getting roasted: http://es.pn/1Zp2hDv

WMU Game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6ODKckuTa8

2:15 mark.....blown coverage
2:36 mark.....Devin Jones missed tackle....Bogan, goodbye
2:46 mark....more poor tackling at point of attack...big gain
2:55 mark....Evan Crouch whiff....and then horrid "push" attempt by Jovon, Bass trucked
3:01 mark....right thru the gut....Carpenter, Bass look like keystone cops trying to make stop
3:22 mark....more bad tackling at point of attack and huge gain ensues
3:26 mark....Jones torched on simple post route for TD
3:50 mark....terrible arm tackling at point of attack...Aaron Macer whiff
3:58 mark....totally untouched for long TD run

Macer missed tackle: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13962940

Bass gets beat...and called for PI: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13961469

Bass/Wells laughable tackling: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13640912

Total breakdown...Jones out of position: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13641032

Bass/Carpenter keystone cop routine again on pass defense: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692453

Fake punt...bad angle from Macer: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692029

Big run...Toran Davis sucked up too far/bad angle http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692076

Ian Wells beat: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14055104


This obviously isn't all of them...but I think you get the point. Ohio defense isn't championship caliber vs good teams. They routinely cleaned up vs bad teams (i.e. Miami, Ball, Kent, Akron, Idaho).....but against good teams (and even some not-so-good-teams like UB) they are too soft on back end....not stout enough up front. Hopefully that changes in 2016.

I came across a lot of other plays....but did not match the criteria of explosive plays (20+ yards)

For the record, according to Ohio games notes going into App State, the offense had 73 explosive plays this year....but it did not say home many defense had allowed.
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allen
12/29/2015 2:32 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

Here are a few of the explosive plays vs. Ohio this year....enjoy:

Toran Davis....the whiff: http://es.pn/1Zi4PCy

Davis takes a really bad angle: http://es.pn/1RwFUcS

Ian Wells....ummm....nice tackle?: http://es.pn/1QH4uaM

Brent Layton....toast: http://es.pn/1OpKoBm

More bad angles...Davis gets sucked up way too far...Layton gets pancaked: http://es.pn/1HalRgZ

More awful tackling (Davis, Jovan, Layton) + bad angles from Carpenter, Wells: http://es.pn/1WBa1Oz

Carpenter getting roasted: http://es.pn/1Zp2hDv

WMU Game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6ODKckuTa8

2:15 mark.....blown coverage
2:36 mark.....Devin Jones missed tackle....Bogan, goodbye
2:46 mark....more poor tackling at point of attack...big gain
2:55 mark....Evan Crouch whiff....and then horrid "push" attempt by Jovon, Bass trucked
3:01 mark....right thru the gut....Carpenter, Bass look like keystone cops trying to make stop
3:22 mark....more bad tackling at point of attack and huge gain ensues
3:26 mark....Jones torched on simple post route for TD
3:50 mark....terrible arm tackling at point of attack...Aaron Macer whiff
3:58 mark....totally untouched for long TD run

Macer missed tackle: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13962940

Bass gets beat...and called for PI: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13961469

Bass/Wells laughable tackling: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13640912

Total breakdown...Jones out of position: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13641032

Bass/Carpenter keystone cop routine again on pass defense: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692453

Fake punt...bad angle from Macer: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692029

Big run...Toran Davis sucked up too far/bad angle http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=13692076

Ian Wells beat: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=14055104


This obviously isn't all of them...but I think you get the point. Ohio defense isn't championship caliber vs good teams. They routinely cleaned up vs bad teams (i.e. Miami, Ball, Kent, Akron, Idaho).....but against good teams (and even some not-so-good-teams like UB) they are too soft on back end....not stout enough up front. Hopefully that changes in 2016.

I came across a lot of other plays....but did not match the criteria of explosive plays (20+ yards)

For the record, according to Ohio games notes going into App State, the offense had 73 explosive plays this year....but it did not say home many defense had allowed.

Thank you so much, these are improvements that need to be made and can be made with good coaching and film study. People make it like I am such a bad guy, I am just a guy trying to tell the truth. This research with video proves it. The coaches need to address these concerns.
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Bcat2
12/29/2015 3:45 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

For the record, according to Ohio games notes going into App State, the offense had 73 explosive plays this year....but it did not say home many defense had allowed.
So the defense gave up 70, the offense produced 73. I am still trying to figure what the MAC leading defenses are allowing. Since other stats, Pass Def/Pass Def Eff seem to indicate Ohio was within arms length of the MAC leaders.

Since there is all that film out there and there are 73 plays of Ohio turning these tables please come back with the Green and White doing it to the other guys. Seems like to be fair you would have done that anyway. You know as an Ohio fan.
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allen
12/29/2015 3:58 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

For the record, according to Ohio games notes going into App State, the offense had 73 explosive plays this year....but it did not say home many defense had allowed.
So the defense gave up 70, the offense produced 73. I am still trying to figure what the MAC leading defenses are allowing. Since other stats, Pass Def/Pass Def Eff seem to indicate Ohio was within arms length of the MAC leaders.

Since there is all that film out there and there are 73 plays of Ohio turning these tables please come back with the Green and White doing it to the other guys. Seems like to be fair you would have done that anyway. You know as an Ohio fan.

I think we are saying the defense can improve and needs to improved. If we recover 40 fumbles, does that mean we are allowed to lose 40 fumbles. If every team in the MAC, jumps off a bridge, should we? I say we do some film study, concentrate on making sound tackles and taking clear angles. these are things we can teach and somewhat control, talent and speed, we can't.
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bshot44
12/29/2015 5:25 PM
Bcat2 wrote:expand_more
We should have two new starters at safety, we cannot afford another 70 explosive play allowed season.
70 explosive plays does sound like a lot. What is an explosive play? How many yards given up? What would be a goal for a good defense? How many explosive plays did Ohio produce? Are explosive plays on the safeties? Might they be explosive by the time they reach the safeties?
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

For the record, according to Ohio games notes going into App State, the offense had 73 explosive plays this year....but it did not say home many defense had allowed.
So the defense gave up 70, the offense produced 73. I am still trying to figure what the MAC leading defenses are allowing. Since other stats, Pass Def/Pass Def Eff seem to indicate Ohio was within arms length of the MAC leaders.

Since there is all that film out there and there are 73 plays of Ohio turning these tables please come back with the Green and White doing it to the other guys. Seems like to be fair you would have done that anyway. You know as an Ohio fan.
I'm not sure the 70 that allen mentioned is true stat. I could be wrong.

The only reason why I did this research in the first place was to truly show you how bad our defense was at points this season. You were questioning what an explosive play was and the validity of a lot of them. So I thought giving you some video to watch would satisfy your curiosity.

I don't need to show the Ohio offensive explosive plays....if you want to, go right ahead.

I know our offense showed flashes this season....but overall, they were inconsistent when it mattered most. Want to prove me otherwise? I'd gladly like to see it.

Our defense was inconsistent nearly all season. You'll see in those clips some of those plays came vs. SELA & Miami and some against WMU & BG.

We had equal opportunity blown plays against good and bad teams. Overall, we were able to overcome those vs. the really bad teams (Idaho, Miami, Kent, Ball & SELA)....and were just good enough to slip past Akron and win at NIU and vs. Marshall.

But vs. WMU, UB and BG we were dreadful....on both sides of the ball.

But go ahead and cover your eyes when watching these.....and then go dig up the Ohio explosive offensive plays to make you feel better.

You know...as an Ohio fan and all.
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allen
12/29/2015 5:28 PM
Bowling Green had over 120 explosive plays through the air. I don't believe that their athletes are that much better than ours. This speaks to our play calling and QB play. We have some things to work on on the offensive side as well.
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Bcat2
12/29/2015 6:03 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Bowling Green had over 120 explosive plays through the air. I don't believe that their athletes are that much better than ours. This speaks to our play calling and QB play. We have some things to work on on the offensive side as well.
So you found out BG's offensive explosive plays, you probably have their defensive allowed explosive plays as well. Care to share, please. It would be helpful.
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allen
12/29/2015 8:20 PM
I would, but that has nothing to do with us. I was making the point that BGSU is getting the most out of their athletes on offense. You are either going to have a strong Offense or Defense and we have neither. We can improve both our offense and defense with adjustments like play-calling, tackling, playing the best player and better qb talent.
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L.C.
12/29/2015 11:21 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

Here are a few of the explosive plays vs. Ohio this year....enjoy:

Toran Davis....the whiff: http://es.pn/1Zi4PCy

Davis takes a really bad angle: http://es.pn/1RwFUcS

Ian Wells....ummm....nice tackle?: http://es.pn/1QH4uaM
...

Thanks for posting. As I have time, I'll watch all of them, but for now I just got through the first three. On the first one, I'm surprised you picked out Toran Davis. Yes, he failed to make the tackle, but so did a lot of others. Laseak lost contain on the QB, so that was what started the problem. Then Daugherty had his back to the play, and didn't realize it was a run until the QB had broken contain, turned the corner, and was already 5 yards upfield. Davis had a shot at him, and could have tackled him for a 12-14 yard gain, but Davis was stationary, and the QB had a full set of speed, and a man he used as a screen, so it would have been a tough tackle for Davis. I give more blame to Laseak and Daugherty on that play than to Davis.

The next one, the link seems to be wrong. It takes me to a bad interception by Sprague, not a play by davis.

Then comes the non-tackle by Wells. I can't argue that he didn't get the job done.
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bshot44
12/30/2015 10:49 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
Umm....we are not good at tackling. Our fundamental tackling in the secondary has been poor for years. (i.e. Omar Leftwich, Devin Bass, Josh Kristoff, etc.)

Here are a few of the explosive plays vs. Ohio this year....enjoy:

Toran Davis....the whiff: http://es.pn/1Zi4PCy

Davis takes a really bad angle: http://es.pn/1RwFUcS

Ian Wells....ummm....nice tackle?: http://es.pn/1QH4uaM
...

Thanks for posting. As I have time, I'll watch all of them, but for now I just got through the first three. On the first one, I'm surprised you picked out Toran Davis. Yes, he failed to make the tackle, but so did a lot of others. Laseak lost contain on the QB, so that was what started the problem. Then Daugherty had his back to the play, and didn't realize it was a run until the QB had broken contain, turned the corner, and was already 5 yards upfield. Davis had a shot at him, and could have tackled him for a 12-14 yard gain, but Davis was stationary, and the QB had a full set of speed, and a man he used as a screen, so it would have been a tough tackle for Davis. I give more blame to Laseak and Daugherty on that play than to Davis.

The next one, the link seems to be wrong. It takes me to a bad interception by Sprague, not a play by davis.

Then comes the non-tackle by Wells. I can't argue that he didn't get the job done.
Not sure what happened on that second link...for that play go here: http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/195/ohio-bo...

Then scroll down to "APPALACHIAN ST. SCORES TWICE IN 42 SECONDS"

As far as the first play...sorry...gotta disagree on Davis. He was in pursuit of the play...overran it and in the process ran into Daugherty. You are right about Laseak losing contain...and Daugherty did have his back to the play....but when it came down to stopping Lamb for about a 10yd gain...Davis and Daugherty did a poor job executing an open field tackle. If Davis wasn't a multi-time offender, I'd be more likely to give him a pass...but you see his name on this list multiple times.

And just to clarify...my descriptions might not be totally accurate in a lot of people's eyes...but that was not the reason for posting these clips. No matter who is to blame on these plays, it was to point out the amount of explosive plays this defense allowed this year. These are all gains of 20+ vs Ohio defense.
Last Edited: 12/30/2015 10:54:32 AM by bshot44
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