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Ohio Football Topic
Topic: Wins over the last 10 years
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Monroe Slavin
2/20/2017 6:06 PM
Everyone gets a...every one and everything are equal..trophy.

I'll trade you one Eastern Illinois for an Austin Peay and an Idaho if you'll throw in an EMU. Or a Gardner Webb or Texas State or Kent State or a Buffalo or an Akron. Maybe you like Norfolk State or UMass or Kansas.
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TWT
2/20/2017 6:10 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
Wes--You'd be okay with a coach leaving us after he won 10 games for 4-5 years? Solich has done it once in 12. But his performance at OHIO is now acceptable?

Note that in the list of lowest coaching staff pay-pools there appear to be six MAC schools below us. Again between the weak out of conf sched and the weak MAC sched, 7.5 wins a year is not a noteworthy accomplishment.
I threw out NIU, Ohio, Toledo, CMU, WMU as to where we stack up in the MAC but since we're all competing for the same bowls I'd look at how much we are spending compared to the AAC, SBC, CUSA and MWC. We're showing up in bowl games against Southern Miss, Troy, East Carolina and Appalachian State peers in the G5. Staff salaries are in the lower 25% of the G5 while Ohio is in the upper 25% of wins over the past 10 years. That the MAC East is one of the weaker divisions in the G5 year in and out to me is hardly relevant. Again, you and some in this thread are thinking back to the days when the MAC was the dwarf star of FBS compared to any other conference and in of itself had its own dynamics. It's not that way anymore.
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L.C.
2/20/2017 6:37 PM
If everyone in the MAC East is a cupcake, by definition doesn't that make Ohio a cupcake, too? Like it or not, these are peers, and keep in mind that when you insult your peers you are also insulting yourself.
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TWT
2/20/2017 6:43 PM
Robert Fox wrote:expand_more
There are no cupcakes for Ohio football, at least not in the MAC. I'm not sure there are cupcakes for any MAC school. Parity in this conference is pretty tight. A genuine cupcake match-up, in my mind, requires a top-level P5 team taking on a mid-major or lower.

When Ohio beats its MAC brethren, you can't discount that and say we're playing cupcakes. We're playing our peers. Our talent peers. Our budgetary peers.
I agree in part. I wouldn't dismiss the investment levels in and around the MAC. Monroe says the MAC is weak but even the weakest MAC school has a solid investment level. In FCS it drops off quickly in each conference after the best programs are counted. Winning in the MAC is not automatic when every school is serious. The MAC has become more top heavy with NIU, BG, Toledo, Ohio, WMU, CMU physical enough up front to compete with the P5. This is shown year after year by those programs with a few exceptions. There is separation between this tier in the MAC and the one occupied with EMU, Akron, Kent, Buffalo, Miami and Ball State. Most of the second tier is in the East division. Monroe is right in that we have 5-6 games including the FCS game that bake 6 wins into the schedule every year. Games that we have every right to be favored in not because they are exceptionally weak but because upfront there is a clear advantage. That's why consistently Frank has those games in the win column. Frank's problem is he hasn't been able to catch CMU, NIU, WMU on an off night in the MACC. NIU was on the ropes but pulled it out against us. He's won against Toledo, BG and NIU the last 3 games while dropping close one to WMU and CMU. Monroe has it down with the 5-6 baked in wins but its not that easy to pull in a MACC with Toledo, BG, NIU, CMU, WMU in this conference.
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Robert Fox
2/20/2017 6:59 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
There is separation between this tier in the MAC and the one occupied with EMU, Akron, Kent, Buffalo, Miami and Ball State. Most of the second tier is in the East division. Monroe is right in that we have 5-6 games including the FCS game that bake 6 wins into the schedule every year.
I also agree in part. However, I take mild exception to the above. Our games with most of the teams in your list are always dog fights. Of course Monroe will blame that on coaching. I recognize it as conference parity. I can tell you as a long-time fan, I NEVER enter a game with those teams and feel a win is guaranteed. That we have dominated those teams of late is a testament to good play and good coaching.

Every so often a MAC team has a dream season. But it's not often and its usually not sustained. Same with the bottom teams, they'll struggle for a while but usually will come out of it after a year or two. The bottom teams seem to swap in and out of the entire conference where the top teams are usually dominated by the same half dozen. But even when you have a clear favorite, like WMU this past year, there's every possibility that a weak MAC team will beat them or at least hang close. Of course that's true of all conferences, but it seems especially true in the MAC.

Case in point, I would say ANY team in the MAC had a better chance this year against WMU than Vanderbilt had against Alabama.
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TWT
2/20/2017 7:18 PM
I'd say our close games against the second tier of the MAC are the result of an offense consistently in the bottom 1/3 of the country. Final score is always 7-14 points closer than it should be. It's become more common since Marshall's been in the conference to see MAC teams roll off big seasons. NIU had 6 division titles in a row so parity isn't what it was.
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The Optimist
2/20/2017 9:38 PM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
We play in FBS.

The goal is a national title.

You have mediocre standards.

Wait, I thought that the goal of the FCS (Football Championship School) was to win a Championship? Based on nomenclature, isn't the goal of an FBS (Football Bowl School) to go to a bowl game?
Bowl game, playoff... Either way, Monroe is medicare.

Goal should be undefeated.
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allen
2/20/2017 9:55 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
I'd say our close games against the second tier of the MAC are the result of an offense consistently in the bottom 1/3 of the country. Final score is always 7-14 points closer than it should be. It's become more common since Marshall's been in the conference to see MAC teams roll off big seasons. NIU had 6 division titles in a row so parity isn't what it was.
very true. LC calling your peers cupcakes does not make you a cupcake, that rationale is very flawed. Boise state whooped people in conference but they beat Oklahoma in a BCS game. There were cupcakes in the east. Facts
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CafTud
2/22/2017 4:09 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
First, the goal is a MAC title.
Actually, there are a whole bunch of other goals that I would put first:

(1) Run a clean program.
(2) Be competitive against peer competion.
(3) Get on TV and advertise the University.
(4) Represent the University well.
(5) Keep students and alumni engaged.
(6) Develop talent and give your best players a shot at the NFL

I'm sure I could think of more, but hopefully the point is made: which of these things has the current staff failed to do?
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L.C.
2/22/2017 8:42 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
... LC calling your peers cupcakes does not make you a cupcake, that rationale is very flawed..... [/QUOTE]
Peer="of equal worth and quality"

If they are a peer, and they are a cupcake =====> you are a cupcake

Conversely, for you to not be a cupcake means that either they are not a peer, or they are not a cupcake

[QUOTE=CatFud]Actually, there are a whole bunch of other goals that I would put first:

(1) Run a clean program.
(2) Be competitive against peer competition.
(3) Get on TV and advertise the University.
(4) Represent the University well.
(5) Keep students and alumni engaged.
(6) Develop talent and give your best players a shot at the NFL

I'm sure I could think of more, but hopefully the point is made: which of these things has the current staff failed to do?

I agree with all those goals, and they have been accomplished reasonably well. For me, my selfish goal is that I want a team that I look forward to watching, and I have that.
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Monroe Slavin
2/23/2017 12:23 AM
CatFud--Most of those are baseline, minimal goals. Almost all of them could be achieved by the debate team or the forensic accounting team or the Marching 110 apart from a football stadium.

Why is it so difficult to admit that that the number one achievement goal (beyond minimal standards of good behavior) for the football team is to win a MAC?

Yes, it might force you to conclude that Solich is not much of a coach.

Sometimes reality has to be acknowledged.



L.C. How are you enjoying your trip to Everyone-Gets-A-Trophy Land?
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allen
2/23/2017 9:19 AM
L.C. wrote:expand_more
... LC calling your peers cupcakes does not make you a cupcake, that rationale is very flawed.....

Peer="of equal worth and quality"

If they are a peer, and they are a cupcake =====> you are a cupcake

Conversely, for you to not be a cupcake means that either they are not a peer, or they are not a cupcake

Actually, there are a whole bunch of other goals that I would put first:

(1) Run a clean program.
(2) Be competitive against peer competition.
(3) Get on TV and advertise the University.
(4) Represent the University well.
(5) Keep students and alumni engaged.
(6) Develop talent and give your best players a shot at the NFL

I'm sure I could think of more, but hopefully the point is made: which of these things has the current staff failed to do?

I agree with all those goals, and they have been accomplished reasonably well. For me, my selfish goal is that I want a team that I look forward to watching, and I have that.
this is all cute and nice at the pewee level, as a coach you are expected to run a clean program and be competitive, but the main objective is to win. See the Woody Hayes quote that is attached. I am thankful that FS has came along and elevated us from the bottom tier to a middle tier program. I am glad that we haves helped players like Mike Mitchell make 20 million and earn NFL pensions, it is time to win. I want the kids to be able to come back every decade and celebrate being MAC champs. I believe that is FS' goal, so that should be our goal as well.
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Buckeye to Bobcat
2/23/2017 10:14 AM
Bobcat1996 wrote:expand_more
Buckeye to Bobcat- I would suggest that the Bobcats in the last fifty years have been known as a basketball school and not a football powerhouse. Bobcat football at one time in the 1980's was the bottom of the barrel of the NCAA and I would argue that Ohio basketball has never sunk that low in that time span. Bobcat fans root for both programs, but the football program has gone through some difficult stretches compared to the hoops program. Some alumni may think that the football program has had to climb " much farther out of the basement so to speak." The MAC regular season outright titles in basketball since Larry Hunter left in the early 90's have been few and far between. The coach who is now at BC tied for the regular season but was the two seed at the MAC tourney, so basically no MAC championships in the regular season have been won outright in basketball. Football doesn't have the same opportunity to win tourney titles as sometimes an #8 seed wins in basketball. The 8 seed in football has no shot at a league championship. The two sports are different as in hoops if a team gets hot for three games in March they can claim a tourney championship and advance to the NCAA. As a "Buckeye to Bobcat" fan you must understand how the fans who cheer on that team in Columbus feel when the Buckeyes play poorly in basketball. Take this season for example. How many of those fans would be calling for the football coaches head if the Buckeyes were 5-9 in the conference in football and struggling to stay above .500? I hope that all Ohio University programs enjoy success each year and that success doesn't have to always equal a MAC title. I'm sure that even though Saul and his team didn't win the MAC last year in hoops they were excited with their 23 wins.
The difference in celebrating 23 wins is that Saul is in year 2 of his process, not year 12. At some point, you would have thought that years 6-10 would have produced a title. As i have said before on other sports threads, it takes 6 years to get your recruits and type of players in. With Frank, we've seen his style and unfortunately does not translate to titles, just 6-8 wins based off of my assessment of the schedule which is designed to get to 8 wins and no further.

As to the OSU OU comparison, I expect teams to be competitive. But when I watch football the same script falls apart. Whereas when I watch OSU basketball, that team got away from recruiting Ohio which in turn hurt them. In the next few years they're gonna be a tough out.
Last Edited: 2/23/2017 10:22:08 AM by Buckeye to Bobcat
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L.C.
2/23/2017 11:11 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
...L.C. How are you enjoying your trip to Everyone-Gets-A-Trophy Land?

The nice thing is that I enjoy every fall day, and I enjoy watching football. To paraphrase Ernie Banks, "it's a great day for football". I don't envy those that watch every game with negativity, always looking for something to complain about. I'd rather not be around them; it's an infectious poison, that leads to dissatisfaction, self-pity and misery. Next year Ohio may win a MACC, and I hope they do. Even if they don't, I'll enjoy some good football. I hope you can find something to enjoy this fall, too.
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Bcat2
2/23/2017 12:17 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
... LC calling your peers cupcakes does not make you a cupcake, that rationale is very flawed.....

Peer="of equal worth and quality"

If they are a peer, and they are a cupcake =====> you are a cupcake

Conversely, for you to not be a cupcake means that either they are not a peer, or they are not a cupcake

Actually, there are a whole bunch of other goals that I would put first:

(1) Run a clean program.
(2) Be competitive against peer competition.
(3) Get on TV and advertise the University.
(4) Represent the University well.
(5) Keep students and alumni engaged.
(6) Develop talent and give your best players a shot at the NFL

I'm sure I could think of more, but hopefully the point is made: which of these things has the current staff failed to do?

I agree with all those goals, and they have been accomplished reasonably well. For me, my selfish goal is that I want a team that I look forward to watching, and I have that.
this is all cute and nice at the pewee level, as a coach you are expected to run a clean program and be competitive, but the main objective is to win. See the Woody Hayes quote that is attached. I am thankful that FS has came along and elevated us from the bottom tier to a middle tier program. I am glad that we haves helped players like Mike Mitchell make 20 million and earn NFL pensions, it is time to win. I want the kids to be able to come back every decade and celebrate being MAC champs. I believe that is FS' goal, so that should be our goal as well.
No, there are two approaches. There is "Win" see Baylor, Ohio State, Florida State, North Carolina (Basketball), Texas, USC, Oregon. There is "More Than Winning" see Solich & Osborne.
Last Edited: 2/23/2017 12:45:04 PM by Bcat2
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