Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Is Saul Phillips really the right fit for Ohio ?
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greencat
5/30/2018 12:53 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
Here is the funny thing: if we do win 27 games and MAC title game appearance or win, the chances are he doesn't sign with us. A better job opens up and they snatch him.
If the Bobcats win 27 games and a MAC title and make the big dance, up and coming young coaches will be lined up to interview for the opening (should it happen). On the other hand, major programs from the ACC, SEC, etc don't usually hire a guy based on one good season at his last place. Usually they prefer a guy with a track record of consistent recent winning.

Example: In the Georgia Tech vs Vandy bidding war for Bryce Drew a couple of years ago, not only was Drew still young... his record at Valpo was 124-49 (71%) and 65-19 in conference (78%). Horizon League champs 4 of 5 years he coached there. 2 NCAA big dances and 2 NIT's + 1 CIT. Three time conference coach of the year.

He was around 39 at the time he left Valpo iirc.
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FearLeon
5/30/2018 6:14 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I've asked the question before and I'll pose it again:

What's the bare minimum season Ohio needs to have for this staff to be retained?
MAC Tournament champions. If you can't win one MAC Tournament championship in your first 5 years at Ohio, then something is terribly wrong. Nee did it....Hunter did it....O'Shea did it....Groce did it. Hahn failed to do it after 3 years and was fired. Christian gets an incomplete for getting out of town after two years.
Last Edited: 5/30/2018 6:37:32 PM by FearLeon
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GraffZ06
5/31/2018 1:13 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I've asked the question before and I'll pose it again:

What's the bare minimum season Ohio needs to have for this staff to be retained?
MAC Championship game appearance. Getting to the dance would be nice but I'd take a finals appearance. Wins? Meh - counting stats don't impress me much, especially in a 1-bid league.
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Maddog13
5/31/2018 1:24 PM
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Last Edited: 5/31/2018 1:26:18 PM by Maddog13
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greencat
5/31/2018 2:17 PM
Maddog13 wrote:expand_more
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Which of the incoming players do you see as most able to take over a game and dominate a good D-1 opponent?

Preston? Murrell? Springs?

Dartis, Taylor, Block - three likely starters, are all seniors. How do you feel about Preston, Murrell and Springs as possible starters year after next? Not going to take sides on your answer. Just curious how you feel about their ceiling, their maximum ability.
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GoCats105
5/31/2018 2:25 PM
greencat wrote:expand_more
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Which of the incoming players do you see as most able to take over a game and dominate a good D-1 opponent?

Preston? Murrell? Springs?

Dartis, Taylor, Block - three likely starters, are all seniors. How do you feel about Preston, Murrell and Springs as possible starters year after next? Not going to take sides on your answer. Just curious how you feel about their ceiling, their maximum ability.
I get what you're saying, but it's an unfair question until we've seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. Yes, you have exceptions to that rule where you can look at a guy and say "yeah, he's gonna be a good one for a while." But most guys you aren't going to be able to see until they are on the floor against other D1 competition.
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Maddog13
6/1/2018 4:37 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Which of the incoming players do you see as most able to take over a game and dominate a good D-1 opponent?

Preston? Murrell? Springs?

Dartis, Taylor, Block - three likely starters, are all seniors. How do you feel about Preston, Murrell and Springs as possible starters year after next? Not going to take sides on your answer. Just curious how you feel about their ceiling, their maximum ability.
I get what you're saying, but it's an unfair question until we've seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. Yes, you have exceptions to that rule where you can look at a guy and say "yeah, he's gonna be a good one for a while." But most guys you aren't going to be able to see until they are on the floor against other D1 competition.
Saul's recruits constantly look like a supporting cast to me. The last leading man that the Bobcats had was Antonio Campbell. Dare I say that Jaaron Simmons too was Geno Ford to Gary Trent, though Geno had special qualities that made him more than just a supporting cast. Even while at Michigan, Simmons turned out to be little more than a supporting cast himself.

Sadly, I see more of the same from Saul. He is not a recruiter like Groce and Christian. Even O'Shea trumps Saul with the "O-Zone." Therefore, I find myself constantly wondering what it is exactly that Saul brings to the table at Ohio?

I don't dislike Saul by the way, though I did find him a bit smug and defensive last year. I remember Arkley asking Saul (something to the effect) regarding whether his players would have an easier time buying into his system if they were winning? Saul got all worked up about that question, which is probably because it is, in fact, getting right to the problem at hand, which is that Saul seems to be selling some sort of system rather than making what he has work.

Hopefully Saul and Company are able to rebound and make the Bobcats exciting again; however, I don't see the selling point of the team anymore. I am not even excited about any of his new recruits. Everyone seems like a "project" to me. Perhaps, he can get some of these young men to "Red Shirt" for three years or so, until they develop into solid D-1 players. Who knows. Maybe, one of them is about to become the next Ohio legend; unfortunately, I am not feeling it at this particular time. Of course, a winning season could certainly change my perspective, but not if the 'Cats get drubbed out of the MAC tournament again.
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FearLeon
6/1/2018 10:58 PM
Maddog13 wrote:expand_more
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Which of the incoming players do you see as most able to take over a game and dominate a good D-1 opponent?

Preston? Murrell? Springs?

Dartis, Taylor, Block - three likely starters, are all seniors. How do you feel about Preston, Murrell and Springs as possible starters year after next? Not going to take sides on your answer. Just curious how you feel about their ceiling, their maximum ability.
I get what you're saying, but it's an unfair question until we've seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. Yes, you have exceptions to that rule where you can look at a guy and say "yeah, he's gonna be a good one for a while." But most guys you aren't going to be able to see until they are on the floor against other D1 competition.
Saul's recruits constantly look like a supporting cast to me. The last leading man that the Bobcats had was Antonio Campbell. Dare I say that Jaaron Simmons too was Geno Ford to Gary Trent, though Geno had special qualities that made him more than just a supporting cast. Even while at Michigan, Simmons turned out to be little more than a supporting cast himself.

Sadly, I see more of the same from Saul. He is not a recruiter like Groce and Christian. Even O'Shea trumps Saul with the "O-Zone." Therefore, I find myself constantly wondering what it is exactly that Saul brings to the table at Ohio?

I don't dislike Saul by the way, though I did find him a bit smug and defensive last year. I remember Arkley asking Saul (something to the effect) regarding whether his players would have an easier time buying into his system if they were winning? Saul got all worked up about that question, which is probably because it is, in fact, getting right to the problem at hand, which is that Saul seems to be selling some sort of system rather than making what he has work.

Hopefully Saul and Company are able to rebound and make the Bobcats exciting again; however, I don't see the selling point of the team anymore. I am not even excited about any of his new recruits. Everyone seems like a "project" to me. Perhaps, he can get some of these young men to "Red Shirt" for three years or so, until they develop into solid D-1 players. Who knows. Maybe, one of them is about to become the next Ohio legend; unfortunately, I am not feeling it at this particular time. Of course, a winning season could certainly change my perspective, but not if the 'Cats get drubbed out of the MAC tournament again.
Good take Maddog. I'll just add something to your last line. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than just a winning season for #SaulBall to see #Year6
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greencat
6/2/2018 1:51 PM
Maddog13 wrote:expand_more
I want to see a consistently strong player again at Ohio that has the potential of taking over a game, if not, in fact, dominating it. I am no longer interested in seeing an inconsistent cast of bench players who are rotated in and out. In fact, I would be satisfied with seeing five consistent starters who compliment each other nicely, but who put the fear of God in everyone they play, whether or not they win or lose. Either Saul brings in another "Shaq of the MAC" or Ohio shocks the world by slaying Giants. At the end of the day, I want wins, and quality wins at that. I also do not want to ever see the Bobcats get blown out at the Convo again. I want to see the Convo become one of the most dangerous places for teams to play. It should be the kind of place that is held in reverence by the locals and absolute dread by opponents. I have a piece of the old floor of the Convo and it is like a rare religious relic to me. That and an Athens Brick. Wherever I am in the world, Athens and Ohio University are always there too.
Which of the incoming players do you see as most able to take over a game and dominate a good D-1 opponent?

Preston? Murrell? Springs?

Dartis, Taylor, Block - three likely starters, are all seniors. How do you feel about Preston, Murrell and Springs as possible starters year after next? Not going to take sides on your answer. Just curious how you feel about their ceiling, their maximum ability.
I get what you're saying, but it's an unfair question until we've seen any of them in an Ohio uniform. Yes, you have exceptions to that rule where you can look at a guy and say "yeah, he's gonna be a good one for a while." But most guys you aren't going to be able to see until they are on the floor against other D1 competition.
Saul's recruits constantly look like a supporting cast to me. The last leading man that the Bobcats had was Antonio Campbell. Dare I say that Jaaron Simmons too was Geno Ford to Gary Trent, though Geno had special qualities that made him more than just a supporting cast. Even while at Michigan, Simmons turned out to be little more than a supporting cast himself.

Sadly, I see more of the same from Saul. He is not a recruiter like Groce and Christian. Even O'Shea trumps Saul with the "O-Zone." Therefore, I find myself constantly wondering what it is exactly that Saul brings to the table at Ohio?

I don't dislike Saul by the way, though I did find him a bit smug and defensive last year. I remember Arkley asking Saul (something to the effect) regarding whether his players would have an easier time buying into his system if they were winning? Saul got all worked up about that question, which is probably because it is, in fact, getting right to the problem at hand, which is that Saul seems to be selling some sort of system rather than making what he has work.

Hopefully Saul and Company are able to rebound and make the Bobcats exciting again; however, I don't see the selling point of the team anymore. I am not even excited about any of his new recruits. Everyone seems like a "project" to me. Perhaps, he can get some of these young men to "Red Shirt" for three years or so, until they develop into solid D-1 players. Who knows. Maybe, one of them is about to become the next Ohio legend; unfortunately, I am not feeling it at this particular time. Of course, a winning season could certainly change my perspective, but not if the 'Cats get drubbed out of the MAC tournament again.
The long term issue is this. Of all the incoming guys, the juco (Cowart) who will only be at Ohio two years, was a top 100 ranked juco player and the juco ranks are full of great athletes. Most of the rest of the class are pretty obscure. Do you feel that is a recipe to be MAC champs 3 years from now or do you think the odds would be higher of finishing in last place that season? How do you think the crowds will be with a team that struggles to win any MAC games at all potentially? If this year's incoming class is indicative of how thing are headed, it's hard to fault those who don't want the current staff retained.

Bolden took the lady program from a 1 win in the MAC program to 16 wins in the MAC in 2 seasons. Sometimes, you just need a change.
Last Edited: 6/2/2018 1:51:53 PM by greencat
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TWT
6/3/2018 1:33 PM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
I've asked the question before and I'll pose it again:

What's the bare minimum season Ohio needs to have for this staff to be retained?
MAC Championship game appearance. Getting to the dance would be nice but I'd take a finals appearance. Wins? Meh - counting stats don't impress me much, especially in a 1-bid league.
What about 20 wins as the bare minimum and keep him on a year-2-year contract until he does something significant like win the MAC regular season or NCAAs to justify a longer term extension. That might be able to buy himself a 6th or 7th season.
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bobcatsquared
6/3/2018 2:14 PM
I'm not sure 20 wins in 2018-19 means the same as 20 wins in 1988-89. Too many gimmes built into the schedule.
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Alan Swank
6/3/2018 2:19 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
I'm not sure 20 wins in 2018-19 means the same as 20 wins in 1988-89. Too many gimmes built into the schedule.
And also a few more games are played now than back then.
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greencat
6/3/2018 5:30 PM
Also the number of d-1 schools has ballooned to 351.

The Umass @ Lowell Riverhawks?
New Jersey Tech?
Bethune–Cookman?
Incarnate Word?

I'm ready for Trevecca to make the jump, now that they finally hired a replacement coach and NO it's NOT Tim O'Shea. (great nickname - the Purple Trojans... not a misprint)
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Big Willy
6/3/2018 7:30 PM
Also, a year-to-year contract would not help recruiting.
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TWT
6/3/2018 9:33 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
I'm not sure 20 wins in 2018-19 means the same as 20 wins in 1988-89. Too many gimmes built into the schedule.
I'm cutting him some slack. The year to year thing he's going to have to deal with it. Solich is on a year to year contract. If Saul can't sell recruits on what he's accomplished in 5 years at Ohio then too bad. The alternative is to bring another coach at a higher rate than Saul. For this reason he might get an extra year or two so he can fully wear out his welcome.
Last Edited: 6/3/2018 9:37:10 PM by TWT
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Alan Swank
6/3/2018 9:45 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
I'm not sure 20 wins in 2018-19 means the same as 20 wins in 1988-89. Too many gimmes built into the schedule.
I'm cutting him some slack. The year to year thing he's going to have to deal with it. Solich is on a year to year contract. If Saul can't sell recruits on what he's accomplished in 5 years at Ohio then too bad. The alternative is to bring another coach at a higher rate than Saul. For this reason he might get an extra year or two so he can fully wear out his welcome.
Why would we bring someone in at a higher rate? We've been paying too much for four years alresady.
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TWT
6/3/2018 10:45 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
I'm not sure 20 wins in 2018-19 means the same as 20 wins in 1988-89. Too many gimmes built into the schedule.
I'm cutting him some slack. The year to year thing he's going to have to deal with it. Solich is on a year to year contract. If Saul can't sell recruits on what he's accomplished in 5 years at Ohio then too bad. The alternative is to bring another coach at a higher rate than Saul. For this reason he might get an extra year or two so he can fully wear out his welcome.
Why would we bring someone in at a higher rate? We've been paying too much for four years alresady.
To reclaim status of having the highest paid coach in the MAC. Saul is paid what he is because that is what the school decided they were going to pay 5 years ago to make an investment in the program. Anyone viewing it otherwise is viewing it wrong.
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TWT
6/3/2018 11:08 PM
The MAC sets the bar for what the athletic department can authorize for HC pay. Ohio has been raising the bar for the MAC but the last couple of years the bar has raised higher with WMU's head football coach making 800k and Toledo's football coach making 1.2 million. We could be looking at a million dollar basketball coach next time around which has the possibility of getting Ohio into retread territory from a power conference guy fired for not making the sweet 16. A big name that brings Ohio extra TV appearances (1 million of marketing value per exposure) could be justified.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/mens-basketball/... /
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Recovering Journalist
6/4/2018 8:35 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
To reclaim status of having the highest paid coach in the MAC. Saul is paid what he is because that is what the school decided they were going to pay 5 years ago to make an investment in the program. Anyone viewing it otherwise is viewing it wrong.
They did not pay up for "status" or to "invest in the program." They paid up because they thought SP was the best choice for building on the excellence that the program had achieved over the prior years.

As for paying a MAC basketball coach $1 million during declining enrollment, financial struggles and program cuts for the university, you're out of your mind. It's totally untenable politically. Here's what the elite coach in the league makes: https://www.ubbullrun.com/2018/3/19/17139326/nate-oats-co...

That's the bar, and no program is going to be stupid and wasteful enough to hop over it.

If anything I could see our next coach being an up-and-comer from a lesser league.
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Jeff McKinney
6/4/2018 12:38 PM
Agree with Recovering Journalist on the salary issue. A huge salary increase would be politically untenable in the current environment.
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FearLeon
6/4/2018 1:26 PM
I would also be surprised if the next coach wasn't an up and comer like Groce was when he was hired. Strong assistant at a Power 5 school. They should also look at Boals for his ties to Ohio and ability to recruit the state. Plus, you can't put a price tag on the head coaching experience he's getting now.
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OUs LONG Driver
6/4/2018 1:31 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
To reclaim status of having the highest paid coach in the MAC. Saul is paid what he is because that is what the school decided they were going to pay 5 years ago to make an investment in the program. Anyone viewing it otherwise is viewing it wrong.
They did not pay up for "status" or to "invest in the program." They paid up because they thought SP was the best choice for building on the excellence that the program had achieved over the prior years.

As for paying a MAC basketball coach $1 million during declining enrollment, financial struggles and program cuts for the university, you're out of your mind. It's totally untenable politically. Here's what the elite coach in the league makes: https://www.ubbullrun.com/2018/3/19/17139326/nate-oats-co...

That's the bar, and no program is going to be stupid and wasteful enough to hop over it.

If anything I could see our next coach being an up-and-comer from a lesser league.
First, I completely agree with the sentiment of your post.

Can you explain briefly the enrollment, financial struggles, and cuts you mention? I quickly searched the enrollment issue looks like 1 year decline with at least a decade of record growth before that, right? Since moving out of state I don't seem to catch these news articles as much anymore. Are there projections for additional decline? Have there been new cuts or are you referring to the athletic program cuts from ~2006?
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Recovering Journalist
6/4/2018 1:33 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
I would also be surprised if the next coach wasn't an up and comer like Groce was when he was hired. Strong assistant at a Power 5 school. They should also look at Boals for his ties to Ohio and ability to recruit the state. Plus, you can't put a price tag on the head coaching experience he's getting now.
You can't call for Saul's head and pine for Jeff Boals at the same time. He just went 13-19 in the America East Conference.
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Recovering Journalist
6/4/2018 1:39 PM
OUs LONG Driver wrote:expand_more
First, I completely agree with the sentiment of your post.

Can you explain briefly the enrollment, financial struggles, and cuts you mention? I quickly searched the enrollment issue looks like 1 year decline with at least a decade of record growth before that, right? Since moving out of state I don't seem to catch these news articles as much anymore. Are there projections for additional decline? Have there been new cuts or are you referring to the athletic program cuts from ~2006?
Here's a recent story on cuts:
https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/university-reaches...

You're right that Ohio has bucked a statewide trend on enrollment, but the demographics don't show an easy road ahead. Ohio is producing fewer high school graduates, so on a whole, all the state schools will suffer. OU may have already peaked (though one semester is not a trend).

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-spring-enrollme...
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OUs LONG Driver
6/4/2018 1:57 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
First, I completely agree with the sentiment of your post.

Can you explain briefly the enrollment, financial struggles, and cuts you mention? I quickly searched the enrollment issue looks like 1 year decline with at least a decade of record growth before that, right? Since moving out of state I don't seem to catch these news articles as much anymore. Are there projections for additional decline? Have there been new cuts or are you referring to the athletic program cuts from ~2006?
Here's a recent story on cuts:
https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/university-reaches...

You're right that Ohio has bucked a statewide trend on enrollment, but the demographics don't show an easy road ahead. Ohio is producing fewer high school graduates, so on a whole, all the state schools will suffer. OU may have already peaked (though one semester is not a trend).

https://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-spring-enrollme...
Thank you!
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