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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Coach Phillips' future
Page: 6 of 19
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100%Cat
1/4/2019 11:16 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)
To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.
Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin
If Saul were responsible for a Sweet 16 banner hanging in the Convo and a win over Georgetown in another NCAA Tourney...I would care less what his MAC record is as well.
4 seasons of games consisting of general mediocrity with some March victories sprinkled in shouldn't be put on such a high pedestal, in my truly humble opinion.
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giacomo
1/4/2019 11:39 AM
I’m not comparing Saul to Snyder. I’m comparing the JOB and what it used to be and what it is today. I believe that because of where we are in the pecking order, we have no business paying our coach more than the median or a little higher of the MAC. We don’t have the revenue and from a scheduling standpoint, it doesn’t appear we have a plan to elevate our program to the next level, which would take a lot more than just paying a coach top dollars.
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OUVan
1/4/2019 11:49 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin
He was 34-30 with us, 9-2 in Cleveland and garnered 3 NCAA victories. Not really comparing apples to apples are we?

Saul has had more bad breaks than any coach we've had since I started following the Cats in the 70s but he's also been frustrating with his inability to force his will onto his players. I've been willing to give him a pass because of those bad breaks up until this year. I just can't watch players making the same stupid decisions on the court without repercussions and support that. I hope he can fix this and am rooting for him but I'm not optimistic.
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100%Cat
1/4/2019 1:56 PM
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.
Last Edited: 1/4/2019 1:57:11 PM by 100%Cat
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FearLeon
1/4/2019 2:05 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)
To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.
Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin
If Saul were responsible for a Sweet 16 banner hanging in the Convo and a win over Georgetown in another NCAA Tourney...I would care less what his MAC record is as well.
4 seasons of games consisting of general mediocrity with some March victories sprinkled in shouldn't be put on such a high pedestal, in my truly humble opinion.
Some March victories? I don't consider 9 wins in Cleveland and 3 NCAA Tournament wins as "some". I really don't care what the MAC record is if the coach doesn't "flinch" in March. It's a one bid league (maybe two this year if UB loses in MAC Finals). Every year it comes down to how you perform in March when you coach the Bobcats. That's what you are remembered for, not going 10-8 and 11-7 in MAC play.
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The Better Ohio Bobcat
1/4/2019 2:39 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Someone mentioned comparative stats on past coaches. I've kept a spreadsheet for years. Apologies if any data is off tho. If something is, hopefully it's just in error by a game or two. I don't think Ohio has ever given an extension to a coach who hadn't reached the NCAA's by year 5 - at least since Snyder.

Phillips (4+ yrs)
Overall: 75-64(.540)
MAC: 34-38(.472)
No NCAA
No NIT
1 CBI (yr 2)
To be batting .472 in MAC play heading into year 5 is just mind boggling.
Another current MAC coach with 5 years of MAC experience under his belt who is a career 40-42 in MAC regular season play is deified around here. Mind boggling, indeed.

#justsayin
If Saul were responsible for a Sweet 16 banner hanging in the Convo and a win over Georgetown in another NCAA Tourney...I would care less what his MAC record is as well.
Exactly
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bshot44
1/4/2019 2:43 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday.
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longtiimelurker
1/4/2019 3:50 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Snyder doesn’t make the NCAA until year 12 of his tenure. What does that tell you? He was considered a professor and was paid like one. No one got all riled up that we didn’t get what we paid for.
It tells me they did NOT take 64 teams, infact, when Coach Snyder began coaching only 8 teams even made the tournament. The first year he made the tournament was 59-60,
What year did he start coaching? In 51 when Kentucky won their 3rd championship the field was 16. I see your point on expectations years back though. I do not think things got really "riled up" until the 70's across the NCAA when TV money started bumping coach's salaries up and fanbases felt a bit more like they needed to get their money's worth with their donations.

Wooden made things higher profile as a coach, then you started seeing Bobby Knight, Catlett, Ray Meyer, Dean Smith and Al McGuire become vocal faces of programs whereas before coaching legends like Frank McGuire, Iba, Allen, Rupp, Fred Taylor, Ed Jucker, Pete Newell, Fred Shaus seemed to just coach and garner the respect of their peers without taking the spotlight off the team.

EDIT. Looked it up 1949. That's impressive. Expansion of NCAA happened a couple of years later. I think the NIT was still going strong back then as well.
Last Edited: 1/4/2019 4:34:49 PM by longtiimelurker
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100%Cat
1/4/2019 4:18 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday.
Call me crazy if you want, but the feeling of "can we win a MAC road game, ANY MAC road game" all year was not a good one for me. And it was like that every year with JG. Cleveland was great twice. People, in my opinion, get a little too caught up in the one Sweet 16 banner and don't care enough about the lack of a MAC regular season banner with that talented team. Jim Christian did that, by the way. I enjoyed the Sweet 16 run just like everyone else, but I guess unlike everyone else, I felt like the team significantly under performed outside of March for four years under Groce.
Last Edited: 1/4/2019 4:19:12 PM by 100%Cat
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FearLeon
1/4/2019 4:34 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday.
People, in my opinion, get a little too caught up in the one Sweet 16 banner and don't care enough about the lack of a MAC regular season banner with that talented team. Jim Christian did that, by the way.
Well....we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nobody will ever remember Jim Christian's stay in Athens. You can have JC and his MAC regular season banner with a loaded veteran team. I will take the Sweet 16 banner and remember forever what Groce accomplished and the thrilling NCAA Tourney rides he gave us.
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GraffZ06
1/4/2019 5:08 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
You can twist the numbers all you want. 5 seasons of MAC experience, 40-42 record. Did he get hot in Cleveland twice? Yep. Were we the best team in the MAC during the season in any of his 4 seasons, or Akron last year? Nope. I get it, some people put a lot more value on NCAA wins than I do. The bottom line is he is a coach who, in 10 completed conference seasons as a head coach has won double digit conference games ONE TIME, finished above .500 just two times, and never finished better than .500 in the Big Ten. That's a whole lot of losses, a whole lot of inconsistency, a whole lot of mediocrity.
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday.
Call me crazy if you want, but the feeling of "can we win a MAC road game, ANY MAC road game" all year was not a good one for me. And it was like that every year with JG. Cleveland was great twice. People, in my opinion, get a little too caught up in the one Sweet 16 banner and don't care enough about the lack of a MAC regular season banner with that talented team. Jim Christian did that, by the way. I enjoyed the Sweet 16 run just like everyone else, but I guess unlike everyone else, I felt like the team significantly under performed outside of March for four years under Groce.
If we want to talk ability to win MAC road games (or all road games for that matter), I literally just compiled the data over on the Purdue game thread here:

https://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromP...

If you're too lazy to click the link I'll summarize.

Saul's road MAC winning% = 342
Groce's road MAC winning% = 333

Saul's overall road winning% = 314
Groce's overall road winning% = 393

Saul's best road wins by RPI = #91 Buffalo, #106 Georgia Tech, #116 E Michigan
Groce's best road wins by RPI = #44 Marshall, #54 Marshall, #72 N Iowa

Groce had 4 of the top 10 road wins of the last 22 years (the extent of my data)
Saul had 0.

So by virtually every measure, Groce outperformed Saul so far. That doesn't even include Cleveland and the NCAA's - which we all know.



We'll also have to agree to disagree on the criteria for success being MAC championships vs. NCAA trips/success. If we were a P5 conference with multiple bids? I'd whole-heartedly agree with you, but we're not. How many people around the country care about a Wednesday evening game in February against a directional Michigan team? Answer: nobody. How many care about the first round of the NCAA tournament? Literally tens of millions.

#TheOnlyThingThatMattersIsMarch
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OU_Country
1/4/2019 5:31 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday. [/QUOTE]
No, I didn't. This board had TONS of pissed off moments about how crappy Groce teams played on the road, or how much they under achieved up until 2011-2012. Hell, we even complained mid-season in 2011-12 how they under achieved at 11-5 during conference play. In 2012, I absolutely thought they were a lock for the MAC finals with a shot to beat Akron. Every year prior to that, it wasn't a sure thing - even with Armon Bassett, who, while he had a legendary tournament, was a flake half the time during the season. Saying anything else is revisionist history because of the Sweet 16 banner.

And here's the thing. In 2016 and 2017 I legit thought Ohio had a solid chance of getting to and winning the MAC Championship both years.






[QUOTE=FearLeon]

Well....we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nobody will ever remember Jim Christian's stay in Athens. You can have JC and his MAC regular season banner with a loaded veteran team. I will take the Sweet 16 banner and remember forever what Groce accomplished and the thrilling NCAA Tourney rides he gave us.
And I thought I had a Groce Crush back in the day. Most of the time, I think that's the only thing you remember related to Ohio Basketball.
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FearLeon
1/4/2019 6:19 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Did you not feel like Ohio had a chance in Cleveland every year Groce took them there?

How many times did you think Ohio really stood a chance in Cleveland with Saul on the sidelines? Once? And OUr PG decided that dribbling out the final :04 was better than getting up a shot.

I'll take Groce and his post-season resume over the last five years every day of the week and 29 times on Sunday.

No, I didn't. This board had TONS of pissed off moments about how crappy Groce teams played on the road, or how much they under achieved up until 2011-2012. Hell, we even complained mid-season in 2011-12 how they under achieved at 11-5 during conference play. In 2012, I absolutely thought they were a lock for the MAC finals with a shot to beat Akron. Every year prior to that, it wasn't a sure thing - even with Armon Bassett, who, while he had a legendary tournament, was a flake half the time during the season. Saying anything else is revisionist history because of the Sweet 16 banner.

And here's the thing. In 2016 and 2017 I legit thought Ohio had a solid chance of getting to and winning the MAC Championship both years.






Well....we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nobody will ever remember Jim Christian's stay in Athens. You can have JC and his MAC regular season banner with a loaded veteran team. I will take the Sweet 16 banner and remember forever what Groce accomplished and the thrilling NCAA Tourney rides he gave us.
And I thought I had a Groce Crush back in the day. Most of the time, I think that's the only thing you remember related to Ohio Basketball.
You don't think Groce would have won the conference that year if he stayed? Nobody will remember the Christian years. And those close to the program those two years will tell you there were major issues between the players and Christian. You can have JC and I'll take JG.
Last Edited: 1/4/2019 8:56:08 PM by FearLeon
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allen
1/4/2019 7:25 PM
Saul has to win or he is out, he is nothing like Groce, we are not fevered by anybody. Groce is a top notch recruiter so he was always able to compete and win in March and is was only set to get better with bradds and levert. I know some people love Saul, I get it ( he greeted you with a smile and said hello to your families) but this is not intramural basketball, he is making over 500k per year, more than professors and department heads so he has to produce. We are a middle of the pack MAC team and he has a half yea left, let’s hope that he does, but if he doesn’t, we need to move one while we don’t have a buyout. Ohio U is a great job, there will be plenty viable candidates. All this talk of BVP and carter leaving, come on they have already used their redshirt years, those are just mediocre tantrums. You bring in a coach with a vision, charisma and a good history and the players can meet with him and see where they fit. The early signees May leave but the new coach may prefer that based on saul’s recruiting prowess. Win or go home. He is not JG or JC, stop
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OU_Country
1/4/2019 7:55 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Saul has to win or he is out, he is nothing like Groce, we are not fevered by anybody. Groce is a top notch recruiter so he was always able to compete and win in March and is was only set to get better with bradds and levert. I know some people love Saul, I get it ( he greeted you with a smile and said hello to your families) but this is not intramural basketball, he is making over 500k per year, more than professors and department heads so he has to produce. We are a middle of the pack MAC team and he has a half yea left, let’s hope that he does, but if he doesn’t, we need to move one while we don’t have a buyout. Ohio U is a great job, there will be plenty viable candidates. All this talk of BVP and carter leaving, come on they have already used their redshirt years, those are just mediocre tantrums. You bring in a coach with a vision, charisma and a good history and the players can meet with him and see where they fit. The early signees May leave but the new coach may prefer that based on saul’s recruiting prowess. Win or go home. He is not JG or JC, stop
Here we go again with rambling about "mediocre". Man, allen, you'd been doing so well too!
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OU_Country
1/4/2019 7:57 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
You don't think Groce would have won the conference that year if he stayed? Nobody will remember the Christian years. And those close to the program those two years will tell you there were major issues between the players and Christian. You can have Christian and I'll take JC.
Remember last week when Recovering Journalist responded to me with "Whataboutism"? That's 110% what this is, by the way.
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Mark Lembright '85
1/4/2019 9:41 PM
My one complaint about Solich is that he doesn’t win the MACC. Good coach but just can’t seem to win the MACC. Saul is a great guy, a super super person. But if I’m going to be consistent, in a coaching comparison with Groce, who won 2 MAC tournaments in only 4 years, it ain’t even close. It’s Groce every day and Sunday too.
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allen
1/4/2019 9:49 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Saul has to win or he is out, he is nothing like Groce, we are not fevered by anybody. Groce is a top notch recruiter so he was always able to compete and win in March and is was only set to get better with bradds and levert. I know some people love Saul, I get it ( he greeted you with a smile and said hello to your families) but this is not intramural basketball, he is making over 500k per year, more than professors and department heads so he has to produce. We are a middle of the pack MAC team and he has a half yea left, let’s hope that he does, but if he doesn’t, we need to move one while we don’t have a buyout. Ohio U is a great job, there will be plenty viable candidates. All this talk of BVP and carter leaving, come on they have already used their redshirt years, those are just mediocre tantrums. You bring in a coach with a vision, charisma and a good history and the players can meet with him and see where they fit. The early signees May leave but the new coach may prefer that based on saul’s recruiting prowess. Win or go home. He is not JG or JC, stop
Here we go again with rambling about "mediocre". Man, allen, you'd been doing so well too!
I know brother, but these correlations are awful. What for? Are we trying to defend mediocrity?. The injury excuse is legit but bringing other Ohio coaches down to Saul’s level, come on.
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OhioCatFan
1/4/2019 11:06 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Well....we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nobody will ever remember Jim Christian's stay in Athens. You can have JC and his MAC regular season banner with a loaded veteran team. I will take the Sweet 16 banner and remember forever what Groce accomplished and the thrilling NCAA Tourney rides he gave us.
+1 I couldn't agree with you more here. As one of the older fans on this board, I'll say that my two most cherished OHIO basketball memories are Snyder's Elite 8 run, and Groce's Sweet16 run. While wins in the regular season are nice, and I savor every one of them, it's winning in March that is really special and leave you with your fondest memories.

[If you look at JC's record at Akron, TCU and OHIO, you'll see good conference results but horrible results in the post season. Personally, I was happy when he left. Saul is a younger coach and it's hard to say how he'll do in the post season on a regular basis. He did have some post-season success at NDSU.]
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Mark Lembright '85
1/5/2019 10:48 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Well....we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Nobody will ever remember Jim Christian's stay in Athens. You can have JC and his MAC regular season banner with a loaded veteran team. I will take the Sweet 16 banner and remember forever what Groce accomplished and the thrilling NCAA Tourney rides he gave us.
+1 I couldn't agree with you more here. As one of the older fans on this board, I'll say that my two most cherished OHIO basketball memories are Snyder's Elite 8 run, and Groce's Sweet16 run. While wins in the regular season are nice, and I savor every one of them, it's winning in March that is really special and leave you with your fondest memories.
This is where I’m at too! As much as we rightly complain on the football messageboard that the system’s rigged against Ohio ever being able to complete for a national championship, now we’re going to minimize the accomplishment or ability of Ohio getting within a hair of reaching the Elite 8 against the #1 team in the country in hoops?
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giacomo
1/5/2019 2:18 PM
https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6485...

The point made by the author in the above article is the same one I’m trying to make about paying our coaches. Where is the money coming from?
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Buck.Cat
1/5/2019 2:39 PM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
This is where I’m at too! As much as we rightly complain on the football messageboard that the system’s rigged against Ohio ever being able to complete for a national championship, now we’re going to minimize the accomplishment or ability of Ohio getting within a hair of reaching the Elite 8 against the #1 team in the country in hoops?
Spot on. It is pretty telling the amount of idiocracy that populates this board of fanatics. People still do not realize how good we had it with Groce.
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ohio9704
1/5/2019 4:08 PM
Not sure how many more nails for Saul's OHIO coaching coffin, but another put in today with that home effort.
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Bobcat1998
1/5/2019 4:12 PM
ohio9704 wrote:expand_more
Not sure how many more nails for Saul's OHIO coaching coffin, but another put in today with that home effort.
I am waiting for the Saul defenders to give me actual evidence as to how he should even stay the rest of this year? That was as poor of coaching as I have ever seen. He has no fire. He has no fire at all and it shows on his players faces. We have no sparkplug. This is the saddest I have been even more than the Bean senior year. At least Bean could light it up any given second.
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FearLeon
1/5/2019 4:12 PM
Nothing sums up the Saul Phillips era more than blowing a 13 point halftime lead against Northern Illinois at home and T Kirk shooting a free throw that went wide right catching nothing but backboard. Then when I think it can't get worse, I watch an Ohio team down 6 with 23 seconds left who DOES NOT FOUL!?!?!?!?!? Folks, we quit...down 6 with 23 seconds left....are you freaking kidding me???????

Doesn't seem to be a lot of fire out there on the court. Thankfully this era of basketball will be over in 2 1/2 months. No sane Ohio basketball fan can ever compare Saul's numbers to John Groce or Jim Snyder ever again. I don't want to hear it. Ohio basketball has officially become a joke. #EnoughOfSaulBall #2-1/2Months
Last Edited: 1/5/2019 4:52:59 PM by FearLeon
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