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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Joe Burrow the roundballer?
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OhioCatFan
1/9/2020 6:45 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
I can’t believe I cherry picked these stats:

SE District loses 72% of the time when playing non-SE district schools in the last decade.

SE District is slightly over represented on all-state accolades when looking at strictly percentages, despite said collective record.

Athens has just over 600 students. The next closest is Vinton County at 470 and Meigs, which is right below 400. Nelsonville-York has 260.

Please share with all of us stats that prove the SE District is good at basketball.
If these are the numbers that you are quoting, they are based on enrollment during ADM (average daily membership - students in attendance) during the October enrollment count. Additionally, these numbers represent only those students in grades 9 - 11, not the entire student body. But back to the conversation about school size and competitive balance, Athens is way bigger than all of the schools in the TVC.

https://ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment
I will grant you this, Athens should not be in the TVC. Athens High football was so bad that they gave up instead of working to improve the program. They joined the much weaker TVC for what I believe was the sole purpose of dominating it, instead of doing the much harder work of re-invigorating the program. And, they haven't even been as dominant as they should be. I could start a rant about other things I don't like about the administration of this school district, but I'll stick to sports here. The way they make decisions in the sports arena is a microcosm of their SOP, IMHO.
Last Edited: 1/9/2020 6:47:14 PM by OhioCatFan
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Alan Swank
1/9/2020 7:36 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I can’t believe I cherry picked these stats:

SE District loses 72% of the time when playing non-SE district schools in the last decade.

SE District is slightly over represented on all-state accolades when looking at strictly percentages, despite said collective record.

Athens has just over 600 students. The next closest is Vinton County at 470 and Meigs, which is right below 400. Nelsonville-York has 260.

Please share with all of us stats that prove the SE District is good at basketball.
If these are the numbers that you are quoting, they are based on enrollment during ADM (average daily membership - students in attendance) during the October enrollment count. Additionally, these numbers represent only those students in grades 9 - 11, not the entire student body. But back to the conversation about school size and competitive balance, Athens is way bigger than all of the schools in the TVC.

https://ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment
I will grant you this, Athens should not be in the TVC. Athens High football was so bad that they gave up instead of working to improve the program. They joined the much weaker TVC for what I believe was the sole purpose of dominating it, instead of doing the much harder work of re-invigorating the program. And, they haven't even been as dominant as they should be. I could start a rant about other things I don't like about the administration of this school district, but I'll stick to sports here. The way they make decisions in the sports arena is a microcosm of their SOP, IMHO.
Where it really has hurt is in girls sports. The level of competition is just not there. The SEOAL was a good league in the 80s and 90s and we were able to compete at least to the regional level and even in those finals, not get blown out.
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BillyTheCat
1/9/2020 10:50 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
I can’t believe I cherry picked these stats:

SE District loses 72% of the time when playing non-SE district schools in the last decade.

SE District is slightly over represented on all-state accolades when looking at strictly percentages, despite said collective record.

Athens has just over 600 students. The next closest is Vinton County at 470 and Meigs, which is right below 400. Nelsonville-York has 260.

Please share with all of us stats that prove the SE District is good at basketball.
If these are the numbers that you are quoting, they are based on enrollment during ADM (average daily membership - students in attendance) during the October enrollment count. Additionally, these numbers represent only those students in grades 9 - 11, not the entire student body. But back to the conversation about school size and competitive balance, Athens is way bigger than all of the schools in the TVC.

https://ohsaa.org/school-resources/school-enrollment
I will grant you this, Athens should not be in the TVC. Athens High football was so bad that they gave up instead of working to improve the program. They joined the much weaker TVC for what I believe was the sole purpose of dominating it, instead of doing the much harder work of re-invigorating the program. And, they haven't even been as dominant as they should be. I could start a rant about other things I don't like about the administration of this school district, but I'll stick to sports here. The way they make decisions in the sports arena is a microcosm of their SOP, IMHO.
Where it really has hurt is in girls sports. The level of competition is just not there. The SEOAL was a good league in the 80s and 90s and we were able to compete at least to the regional level and even in those finals, not get blown out.
Athens greatest 4 year run of success in girls basketball came during the TVC with back to back Regional appearances and is still the only school in the SE District to defeat Africentric in Girls basketball, and I believe they have been to 3 regionals since belonging to the TVC. Regardless, why harp on kids who have to play the teams that adults schedule. No different when OHIO puts up 50 on an FCS opponent, the players just play the adults make the decision.
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BillyTheCat
1/9/2020 10:52 PM
Donuts wrote:expand_more
Nope, not jumping to conclusions, I agree 110%, the best players in the SE District (save the rare athlete) are not worth of recognition because they are far inferior to the kids in non-Appalachian parts of the state. You have me thoroughly convinced. Convinced enough that I have sent an e-mail to Wiseman, Boggs, Leist my comments that they really should pass on having All-State nominations from such a poorly deserving region.
Last year,

SE District had roughly 10% of the teams in the state in D2. However, they occupied 17% of the spots on All-State.

SE District had roughly 15% of the teams in the state in D3. However, they occupied right around 20% of the spots on All-State.

The few years I bothered checking had very similar breakdowns. It's almost like there's a quota...

LOL, maybe you should speak with an AP writer and let them explain to you the process. Just like teams to the Regional Tournament it’s all proportional based on representation.
LOL, they don’t need to explain anything to me. I’m proving with numbers what I’ve said all along. I know why the numbers are what they are. It illustrates my point perfectly. I can only imagine how many superior players don’t make All-State because a SE Ohio team that went .500 needs a rep.
Again, I agree with you and I also agree with your original post that Burrow was only all-state because he played in SE Ohio and was not a good enough athlete to garner such recognition anywhere else. You’ve totally convinced me.
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BillyTheCat
1/9/2020 10:54 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
It seems if you read this thread that both BTC and I both picked up the same vib. If you don't, it may just mean your not sensitive to the same things that we are. It's clear to me that he's cherry picking stats to prove that SEO kids are inferior. I find his attitude very elitist and snobbish, if not downright bigotry.
Yeah, I know you're both sensitive to this. I've asked twice for examples of what made you feel that way. What, specifically, did he say? You don't think it's possible for somebody to feel that basketball in SE Ohio's not on par with basketball in some other areas of the state without it being 'elitist and snobbish'?

He's been pretty measured -- I'm really not sure I understand the sensitivity here.
He specifically stated that Burrow could not be All-OHIO in any other District because he padded his stats against weak SE Ohio schools.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/10/2020 9:11 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
It seems if you read this thread that both BTC and I both picked up the same vib. If you don't, it may just mean your not sensitive to the same things that we are. It's clear to me that he's cherry picking stats to prove that SEO kids are inferior. I find his attitude very elitist and snobbish, if not downright bigotry.
Yeah, I know you're both sensitive to this. I've asked twice for examples of what made you feel that way. What, specifically, did he say? You don't think it's possible for somebody to feel that basketball in SE Ohio's not on par with basketball in some other areas of the state without it being 'elitist and snobbish'?

He's been pretty measured -- I'm really not sure I understand the sensitivity here.
He specifically stated that Burrow could not be All-OHIO in any other District because he padded his stats against weak SE Ohio schools.
And that is elitist and snobby? And indicates a mindset that "us hicks better just know our place, and stay fat, dumb and happy with our moonshine, Pepsi and moon pies."

C'mon. It's an analysis of the quality of a basketball league. It's hilarious how desperate so many people here are to be outraged and play the victim.
Last Edited: 1/10/2020 9:17:05 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Donuts
1/10/2020 9:30 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
It seems if you read this thread that both BTC and I both picked up the same vib. If you don't, it may just mean your not sensitive to the same things that we are. It's clear to me that he's cherry picking stats to prove that SEO kids are inferior. I find his attitude very elitist and snobbish, if not downright bigotry.
Yeah, I know you're both sensitive to this. I've asked twice for examples of what made you feel that way. What, specifically, did he say? You don't think it's possible for somebody to feel that basketball in SE Ohio's not on par with basketball in some other areas of the state without it being 'elitist and snobbish'?

He's been pretty measured -- I'm really not sure I understand the sensitivity here.
He specifically stated that Burrow could not be All-OHIO in any other District because he padded his stats against weak SE Ohio schools.
Tell me where that is a lie about the schools? Athens plays an incredibly weak schedule.

You claimed Burrow was not a SEC or Big Ten player. Quit picking on him and SE Ohio. I can't believe you'd say such a thing. I guess only you are allowed to have an opinion on him as a player.

As for OCF, labeling this as bigotry might be the biggest reach I've ever read. Funny how I'm the big, bad SE Ohio meanie, but yet I'm getting called names, judged because of my age/generation, and having my comments labeled as bigotry.

Once again, still waiting on anything that would disprove my pretty simple observations about the SE Ohio District in boys basketball.
Last Edited: 1/10/2020 10:25:38 AM by Donuts
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BillyTheCat
1/10/2020 12:00 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
It seems if you read this thread that both BTC and I both picked up the same vib. If you don't, it may just mean your not sensitive to the same things that we are. It's clear to me that he's cherry picking stats to prove that SEO kids are inferior. I find his attitude very elitist and snobbish, if not downright bigotry.
Yeah, I know you're both sensitive to this. I've asked twice for examples of what made you feel that way. What, specifically, did he say? You don't think it's possible for somebody to feel that basketball in SE Ohio's not on par with basketball in some other areas of the state without it being 'elitist and snobbish'?

He's been pretty measured -- I'm really not sure I understand the sensitivity here.
He specifically stated that Burrow could not be All-OHIO in any other District because he padded his stats against weak SE Ohio schools.
And that is elitist and snobby? And indicates a mindset that "us hicks better just know our place, and stay fat, dumb and happy with our moonshine, Pepsi and moon pies."

C'mon. It's an analysis of the quality of a basketball league. It's hilarious how desperate so many people here are to be outraged and play the victim.
I am not the one who said those things.
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BillyTheCat
1/10/2020 12:07 PM
Donuts wrote:expand_more
It seems if you read this thread that both BTC and I both picked up the same vib. If you don't, it may just mean your not sensitive to the same things that we are. It's clear to me that he's cherry picking stats to prove that SEO kids are inferior. I find his attitude very elitist and snobbish, if not downright bigotry.
Yeah, I know you're both sensitive to this. I've asked twice for examples of what made you feel that way. What, specifically, did he say? You don't think it's possible for somebody to feel that basketball in SE Ohio's not on par with basketball in some other areas of the state without it being 'elitist and snobbish'?

He's been pretty measured -- I'm really not sure I understand the sensitivity here.
He specifically stated that Burrow could not be All-OHIO in any other District because he padded his stats against weak SE Ohio schools.

You claimed Burrow was not a SEC or Big Ten player. Quit picking on him and SE Ohio. I can't believe you'd say such a thing. I guess only you are allowed to have an opinion on him as a player.
By your rationale then, only kids going to SEC or Big Ten can be All-State? By all accounts of schools interested, to scouting services has Joe project to be MAC or lower DI.

As for your statistics on the SE record against outside teams, you fail to include that 97% of the schools in the SE District are all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools (Harvest Preps), Not the DeSales, Africentric's the Wellington's of the world who routinely trek to Athens. In fact, most public schools have a losing record against those programs. How convenient you leave those out. Look who beat Wheelersburg last year, who beat Ironton when they went to the State Finals last, who beat Sheridan last year. Those schools beat all the public's they play.
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BillyTheCat
1/10/2020 12:33 PM
So let's look at these horrible numbers that SE Ohio has, yeah they have not fared great, but let's look at who is beating them. The majority is going to be private schools or schools who do not play on the same level of Traditional public schools.


2017 - II Columbus Eastmoor over Vinton County (Eastmoor CB 24)
2017 - III Fairland over Hiland
2017 - IV Wellington over Portsmouth Clay
2017 - 1/2, two losses to a NON-traditional public school, a boarding school (State Champs), and 1 win over a traditional power public school.

2016 - II - Semi's - John Glenn (State Champs) over Vinton County
2016 - III - Lynchburg Clay over Marion Pleasant
2016 - IV - Semi's SE went 0-2 losing to Africentric and Wellington
2016 - 1/4 - losing to Public State Champion, beating a public, and losing to a boarding school and a Columbus NON-Traditional magnet

2015 - II - Semi's Walnut Ridge over Unioto - Unioto 1/13 from line in final minutes.
2015 - III - Eastmoor over Portsmouth
2015 - IV - Harvest Prep and Africentric over Peebles and Trimble
2015 - 0/4 - lost to 1 traditional public school, 2 NON-Traditional public, and 1 Private Basketball Factory

The list is long, the thing is at this level and what feeds into the Athens Regional is not average teams, or traditional public school teams. Instead, it's been a collection of non-traditional and private schools that are basketball factories. All of those schools have much higher CB numbers, in fact 4 of the schools on that list have been bumped a division since CB came into effect, while the CB numbers in SE Ohio are non-factors. So we want to talk about the record? Fine, let's also talk about the teams they are playing.

Since 2000, the SE District is 17 Wins 11 Losses in Regional Final games. Against other Districts in those Finals the SE District is 11 Wins and 6 Losses. Not nearly as bad as you would like to make SE District Basketball out to be.
Last Edited: 1/10/2020 12:36:37 PM by BillyTheCat
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Donuts
1/10/2020 12:37 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
By your rationale then, only kids going to SEC or Big Ten can be All-State? By all accounts of schools interested, to scouting services has Joe project to be MAC or lower DI.

As for your statistics on the SE record against outside teams, you fail to include that 97% of the schools in the SE District are all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools (Harvest Preps), Not the DeSales, Africentric's the Wellington's of the world who routinely trek to Athens. In fact, most public schools have a losing record against those programs. How convenient you leave those out. Look who beat Wheelersburg last year, who beat Ironton when they went to the State Finals last, who beat Sheridan last year. Those schools beat all the public's they play.
How you jump to that I have no idea, but at this point it's clear you are hoping to latch on to anything to start new arguments. No, SEC or Big Ten is not an All-State qualifier.

Now we have shifted to the private school/magnet school outcry. We're trying anything possible at this point, aren't we? Do you see how far you are shifting everything away from the original point? So if the SE District is filled with a bunch of "all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools" that means it is in fact, the easiest district of them all.

Poor Athens though. Losing to basketball factories Circleville Prep, Warren Catholic and Unioto Academy had to be tough for Burrow and the boys.
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BillyTheCat
1/10/2020 12:40 PM
Donuts wrote:expand_more
By your rationale then, only kids going to SEC or Big Ten can be All-State? By all accounts of schools interested, to scouting services has Joe project to be MAC or lower DI.

As for your statistics on the SE record against outside teams, you fail to include that 97% of the schools in the SE District are all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools (Harvest Preps), Not the DeSales, Africentric's the Wellington's of the world who routinely trek to Athens. In fact, most public schools have a losing record against those programs. How convenient you leave those out. Look who beat Wheelersburg last year, who beat Ironton when they went to the State Finals last, who beat Sheridan last year. Those schools beat all the public's they play.
How you jump to that I have no idea, but at this point it's clear you are hoping to latch on to anything to start new arguments. No, SEC or Big Ten is not an All-State qualifier.

Now we have shifted to the private school/magnet school outcry. We're trying anything possible at this point, aren't we? Do you see how far you are shifting everything away from the original point? So if the SE District is filled with a bunch of "all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools" that means it is in fact, the easiest district of them all.

Poor Athens though. Losing to basketball factories Circleville Prep, Warren Catholic and Unioto Academy had to be tough for Burrow and the boys.
Warren who went to the State? What I am trying to figure out is your outright disdain for kids being honored. You have said more than once that SE basketball is not good enough and kids are not getting honors they deserve. Sorry, last time I checked the rules of the All-State AP and Coaches Association teams, the athletes in the SE are justly being rewarded within the realm of the procedures. That seems to really bother you.
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Donuts
1/10/2020 12:50 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
By your rationale then, only kids going to SEC or Big Ten can be All-State? By all accounts of schools interested, to scouting services has Joe project to be MAC or lower DI.

As for your statistics on the SE record against outside teams, you fail to include that 97% of the schools in the SE District are all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools (Harvest Preps), Not the DeSales, Africentric's the Wellington's of the world who routinely trek to Athens. In fact, most public schools have a losing record against those programs. How convenient you leave those out. Look who beat Wheelersburg last year, who beat Ironton when they went to the State Finals last, who beat Sheridan last year. Those schools beat all the public's they play.
How you jump to that I have no idea, but at this point it's clear you are hoping to latch on to anything to start new arguments. No, SEC or Big Ten is not an All-State qualifier.

Now we have shifted to the private school/magnet school outcry. We're trying anything possible at this point, aren't we? Do you see how far you are shifting everything away from the original point? So if the SE District is filled with a bunch of "all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools" that means it is in fact, the easiest district of them all.

Poor Athens though. Losing to basketball factories Circleville Prep, Warren Catholic and Unioto Academy had to be tough for Burrow and the boys.
Warren who went to the State? What I am trying to figure out is your outright disdain for kids being honored. You have said more than once that SE basketball is not good enough and kids are not getting honors they deserve. Sorry, last time I checked the rules of the All-State AP and Coaches Association teams, the athletes in the SE are justly being rewarded within the realm of the procedures. That seems to really bother you.
Once again, something I never said. There is a major difference (that anyone not looking for an argument can see) between pointing out that good players are benefiting from playing bad competition in the SE District, and a disdain for kids being honored. But, reach, reach and reach some more.
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BillyTheCat
1/10/2020 12:54 PM
Donuts wrote:expand_more
By your rationale then, only kids going to SEC or Big Ten can be All-State? By all accounts of schools interested, to scouting services has Joe project to be MAC or lower DI.

As for your statistics on the SE record against outside teams, you fail to include that 97% of the schools in the SE District are all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools (Harvest Preps), Not the DeSales, Africentric's the Wellington's of the world who routinely trek to Athens. In fact, most public schools have a losing record against those programs. How convenient you leave those out. Look who beat Wheelersburg last year, who beat Ironton when they went to the State Finals last, who beat Sheridan last year. Those schools beat all the public's they play.
How you jump to that I have no idea, but at this point it's clear you are hoping to latch on to anything to start new arguments. No, SEC or Big Ten is not an All-State qualifier.

Now we have shifted to the private school/magnet school outcry. We're trying anything possible at this point, aren't we? Do you see how far you are shifting everything away from the original point? So if the SE District is filled with a bunch of "all public, traditional public, not Magnet schools, not basketball factory schools" that means it is in fact, the easiest district of them all.

Poor Athens though. Losing to basketball factories Circleville Prep, Warren Catholic and Unioto Academy had to be tough for Burrow and the boys.
Warren who went to the State? What I am trying to figure out is your outright disdain for kids being honored. You have said more than once that SE basketball is not good enough and kids are not getting honors they deserve. Sorry, last time I checked the rules of the All-State AP and Coaches Association teams, the athletes in the SE are justly being rewarded within the realm of the procedures. That seems to really bother you.
Once again, something I never said. There is a major difference (that anyone not looking for an argument can see) between pointing out that good players are benefiting from playing bad competition in the SE District, and a disdain for kids being honored. But, reach, reach and reach some more.
Actually, string this quote from you, along with your quotes regarding that the SE is over represented, then yes you are saying the kids are not deserving. Not sure how else you could mean those things:

" Burrow is nowhere close to an All-State basketball player. He was first team all-state in basketball thanks in large part to killing some bad teams.".
That's pretty straight forward, "nowhere close to an All-State basketball player". Your words, and your opinon. That's fine, you then go on to reason that too many SE Ohio kids get All-State honors. That's fine, here is the reality, you do not like the system, but the system is what it is, and you can't change it, so buckle up, this spring there will be an entirely new list of over represented All-State players for SE Ohio.
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Donuts
1/10/2020 1:15 PM
As a sophomore and junior I don’t think he was an All-State player. As a senior I don’t think he was a top 10 player in the state in D2. I’ll slightly revise things and say maybe he gets thrown on special or honorable mention because I forgot that in the end, like 100 kids get recognized. It’s so hard to judge when you stick to the SE District for nearly every single game. It's not just a Burrow issue, it's a SE District issue.

Now the argument is “well those are the rules” like none of us know that. My point is it overrates players in weak districts playing weak competition. The start of this thread had people amazed he was first team all-state and had state recognition three times. Sorry that my belief is being hidden in a bad league and a bad district gave him a boost.
Last Edited: 1/10/2020 1:27:31 PM by Donuts
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doubledribble
1/10/2020 3:11 PM
Probably a good idea to not put too much weight on the post season "awards" when you are evaluating high school talent, for some of the points that Donuts has made. I would be much more interested in what my college coaching friends have said about this kid, or that kid, which leads to who is recruiting who at D-1, D-2, and D-3. Success on the recruiting trails eventually will determine a programs over-all success, so those are the opinions I am really interested in on who is truly "All-State"
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Donuts
1/10/2020 3:40 PM
doubledribble wrote:expand_more
Probably a good idea to not put too much weight on the post season "awards" when you are evaluating high school talent, for some of the points that Donuts has made. I would be much more interested in what my college coaching friends have said about this kid, or that kid, which leads to who is recruiting who at D-1, D-2, and D-3. Success on the recruiting trails eventually will determine a programs over-all success, so those are the opinions I am really interested in on who is truly "All-State"
Very reasonable take. My thoughts a lot of times with multi-sport stars is mistaking interest for actual offers. Like, it's easy to see why he was getting interest, but when actual offers start, what would happen? No one really knows.

By his junior year the recruitment was focused on football. He signed at the end of his junior school year. Did he receive one formal basketball offer? Basketball recruiters knew of him, but it's much easier to say he could play here or there in basketball when he's already a big time football recruit. They know they don't have to follow up with a full scholarship.
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Alan Swank
1/12/2020 5:59 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
So let's look at these horrible numbers that SE Ohio has, yeah they have not fared great, but let's look at who is beating them. The majority is going to be private schools or schools who do not play on the same level of Traditional public schools.


2017 - II Columbus Eastmoor over Vinton County (Eastmoor CB 24)
2017 - III Fairland over Hiland
2017 - IV Wellington over Portsmouth Clay
2017 - 1/2, two losses to a NON-traditional public school, a boarding school (State Champs), and 1 win over a traditional power public school.

2016 - II - Semi's - John Glenn (State Champs) over Vinton County
2016 - III - Lynchburg Clay over Marion Pleasant
2016 - IV - Semi's SE went 0-2 losing to Africentric and Wellington
2016 - 1/4 - losing to Public State Champion, beating a public, and losing to a boarding school and a Columbus NON-Traditional magnet

2015 - II - Semi's Walnut Ridge over Unioto - Unioto 1/13 from line in final minutes.
2015 - III - Eastmoor over Portsmouth
2015 - IV - Harvest Prep and Africentric over Peebles and Trimble
2015 - 0/4 - lost to 1 traditional public school, 2 NON-Traditional public, and 1 Private Basketball Factory

The list is long, the thing is at this level and what feeds into the Athens Regional is not average teams, or traditional public school teams. Instead, it's been a collection of non-traditional and private schools that are basketball factories. All of those schools have much higher CB numbers, in fact 4 of the schools on that list have been bumped a division since CB came into effect, while the CB numbers in SE Ohio are non-factors. So we want to talk about the record? Fine, let's also talk about the teams they are playing.

Since 2000, the SE District is 17 Wins 11 Losses in Regional Final games. Against other Districts in those Finals the SE District is 11 Wins and 6 Losses. Not nearly as bad as you would like to make SE District Basketball out to be.
Wellington is not a boarding school and Eastmoor is a public high school and CB - combetive balance is a joke advanced by a bunch of cry baby country white schools in the Holmes/Wayne/etc. County area.
Last Edited: 1/12/2020 6:00:55 PM by Alan Swank
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