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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Goodbye Concession Stands (NT)
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ohiocatfan1
1/10/2022 11:12 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Stupid and disappointing
Agreed. The world has lost all common sense.
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OhioCatFan
1/10/2022 11:14 AM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Just putting this out here, feel free to disagree: IMO, the end game by OU is to ban all fans. They know this. But they like to do things gradually to control the anger. When fans are banned, the reason given will be lack of compliance with mask requirements at the Convo, and that they do not have the staff to enforce it. OU and the MAC may use the intermediate step of social distancing, limiting attendance to about 3,000, with priority given to season ticket holders. But season ticket holders will not be able to stay in their particular seats.

I have no info on this. Just my own thoughts. Feel free to disagree.
My sense is that this won't happen. We're in for a very big wave of cases, but if the data on omicron stays as is, hospitalizations and deaths only occur in meaningful numbers amongst the unvaccinated. There's an intermediate step of requiring proof of vaccine to attend that's likely to gain steam as the data on omicron does more and more to illustrate that the path to normalcy requires vaccines.
Actually, the data from South Africa and now Denmark indicate that while being vaccinated does provide some protection from getting an Omicron infection, when acquired a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person generally have the same mild symptoms that typically resolve in a couple of days. Omicron is 70 times more contagious than Delta, which was itself more contagious than earlier strains. The sheer number of new infections will put a strain on the health care system in the short term, but the good news is that in all likelihood this signals the beginning of the end of the pandemic. This how the first SARS virus epidemic ended -- the virus mutated itself out of relevance.
If it's so mild, why are hospitalizations at record highs?
Because if you have a huge upswing in infections the raw number of hospitalizations will go up, even if the percent hospitalized goes down. Those being hospitalized now are for the most part those with underlying health issues prior to the Omicron infection. And, there are still some Delta infections, but that number is dropping very quickly.
Last Edited: 1/10/2022 11:14:37 AM by OhioCatFan
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Pataskala
1/10/2022 11:17 AM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

The ban will likely be for only a couple weeks. The current surge is expected to subside by then. Unlike earlier versions of covid, omicron seems to be more like the regular flu.

Some of this panic is being created by misinformation. NBC ran a story last night that about 2/3 of the hospitalizations in the SF Bay area that have been designated as covid-related were mislabeled. Turns out that if people are hospitalized for some other reason but test positive, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization, even if they are asymptomatic. So if somebody has a heart attack, or a traffic accident, or even a baby and they test positive on being admitted to the hospital, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization.
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shabamon
1/10/2022 11:19 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Just putting this out here, feel free to disagree: IMO, the end game by OU is to ban all fans. They know this. But they like to do things gradually to control the anger. When fans are banned, the reason given will be lack of compliance with mask requirements at the Convo, and that they do not have the staff to enforce it. OU and the MAC may use the intermediate step of social distancing, limiting attendance to about 3,000, with priority given to season ticket holders. But season ticket holders will not be able to stay in their particular seats.

I have no info on this. Just my own thoughts. Feel free to disagree.
My sense is that this won't happen. We're in for a very big wave of cases, but if the data on omicron stays as is, hospitalizations and deaths only occur in meaningful numbers amongst the unvaccinated. There's an intermediate step of requiring proof of vaccine to attend that's likely to gain steam as the data on omicron does more and more to illustrate that the path to normalcy requires vaccines.
Actually, the data from South Africa and now Denmark indicate that while being vaccinated does provide some protection from getting an Omicron infection, when acquired a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person generally have the same mild symptoms that typically resolve in a couple of days. Omicron is 70 times more contagious than Delta, which was itself more contagious than earlier strains. The sheer number of new infections will put a strain on the health care system in the short term, but the good news is that in all likelihood this signals the beginning of the end of the pandemic. This how the first SARS virus epidemic ended -- the virus mutated itself out of relevance.
If it's so mild, why are hospitalizations at record highs?
Because if you have a huge upswing in infections the raw number of hospitalizations will go up, even if the percent hospitalized goes down. Those being hospitalized now are for the most part those with underlying health issues prior to the Omicron infection. And, there are still some Delta infections, but that number is dropping very quickly.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
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OhioCatFan
1/10/2022 11:19 AM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

The ban will likely be for only a couple weeks. The current surge is expected to subside by then. Unlike earlier versions of covid, omicron seems to be more like the regular flu.

Some of this panic is being created by misinformation. NBC ran a story last night that about 2/3 of the hospitalizations in the SF Bay area that have been designated as covid-related were mislabeled. Turns out that if people are hospitalized for some other reason but test positive, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization, even if they are asymptomatic. So if somebody has a heart attack, or a traffic accident, or even a baby and they test positive on being admitted to the hospital, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization.
Good point. And, this isn't new. This has been going on since almost day one of the pandemic.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/10/2022 11:20 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Actually, the data from South Africa and now Denmark indicate that while being vaccinated does provide some protection from getting an Omicron infection, when acquired a vaccinated person and an unvaccinated person generally have the same mild symptoms that typically resolve in a couple of days. [/QUOTE]A couple of things:

1. I'm not particularly interested in cases as a metric these days. There was a point in which they were relevant, because they were a leading indicator of hospitalizations and deaths, but as more and more of the population gets vaccinated, and more of the cases come from the Omicron variant, that becomes less and less true.

2. Of ICU admissions, the vast majority are unvaccinated. Where are you seeing the data on vaccinated and unvaccinated folks having the same outcome?


[QUOTE=OhioCatFan]
Omicron is 70 times more contagious than Delta, which was itself more contagious than earlier strains. The sheer number of new infections will put a strain on the health care system in the short term, but the good news is that in all likelihood this signals the beginning of the end of the pandemic. This how the first SARS virus epidemic ended -- the virus mutated itself out of relevance.
I don't disagree with this, but am not as convinced as you are that this isn't going to kill a whole bunch of unvaccinated Americans in the meantime. Deaths are starting to inch up again, and we're still seeing about 1700 a day.

There have been a lot of comparisons between the US and England and Denmark, but both of those countries have been much more successful double vaccinating (vaccine and booster) their population; I think there are potential reasons to think severity may look different in the US.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/10/2022 12:00 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.
I'd imagine it's a combination of reasons: risk of spread and staffing shortages, amongst them.
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rpbobcat
1/10/2022 12:08 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
2. Of ICU admissions, the vast majority are unvaccinated. Where are you seeing the data on vaccinated and unvaccinated folks having the same outcome?
According to WOR news this morning,55% of covid hospitalizations are unvaccinated.
45% of the covid hospitalizations are fully vaccinated.

These numbers take into account people who go to the hospital for
things like a broken leg, but test positive for covid.

The numbers of hospitalizations for vaxed /unvaxed are
close.
But that's not the case for the severity of the infections.

According to an article in today's The Record, in NJ at least, 68% of the covid patients in the ICU, are unvaxed.

What's unusual is that, according to the same article, recovery times for vaxed/unvaxed, even in severe cases, are much less then other variants.
There are also significantly less deaths.
Last Edited: 1/10/2022 12:09:53 PM by rpbobcat
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MonroeClassmate
1/10/2022 12:48 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
There have been a lot of comparisons between the US and England and Denmark, but both of those countries have been much more successful double vaccinating (vaccine and booster) their population; I think there are potential reasons to think severity may look different in the US.

Don't shoot me; I'm just a messenger!

12/10/2022 WSJ Page A19
2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine receiver
Dr. Luc Montagnier (French) stated, "There is no evidence so far that vaccines are reducing infections from the fast-spreading variant."

Article goes on to say there is evidence that after 30 days the two vaccines no longer had any statistical significant positive effect on Omicron. But the next sentence says after 90 days (from Canada and Denmark) the vaccinated people have higher rates of Omicron infection than unvaccinated people.

No mention of severity of outcomes between Vaxxed and Un
Last Edited: 1/10/2022 12:50:47 PM by MonroeClassmate
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JSF
1/10/2022 12:57 PM
ohiocatfan1 wrote:expand_more
Stupid and disappointing
Agreed. The world has lost all common sense.
So you admit "common sense" doesn't exist.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/10/2022 1:12 PM
MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
There have been a lot of comparisons between the US and England and Denmark, but both of those countries have been much more successful double vaccinating (vaccine and booster) their population; I think there are potential reasons to think severity may look different in the US.

Don't shoot me; I'm just a messenger!

12/10/2022 WSJ Page A19
2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine receiver
Dr. Luc Montagnier (French) stated, "There is no evidence so far that vaccines are reducing infections from the fast-spreading variant."

Article goes on to say there is evidence that after 30 days the two vaccines no longer had any statistical significant positive effect on Omicron. But the next sentence says after 90 days (from Canada and Denmark) the vaccinated people have higher rates of Omicron infection than unvaccinated people.

No mention of severity of outcomes between Vaxxed and Un
Yeah, that's not really addressing my point, which is that data seems to be indicating different outcomes for patients once they have the virus. We know that the omicron variant has been successful at "avoiding" the vaccine and causing infection; as I stated in my post, I don't think cases are a particularly relevant metric right now. What's relevant is what happens when people get the virus.
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/10/2022 1:53 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
There have been a lot of comparisons between the US and England and Denmark, but both of those countries have been much more successful double vaccinating (vaccine and booster) their population; I think there are potential reasons to think severity may look different in the US.

Don't shoot me; I'm just a messenger!

12/10/2022 WSJ Page A19
2008 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine receiver
Dr. Luc Montagnier (French) stated, "There is no evidence so far that vaccines are reducing infections from the fast-spreading variant."

Article goes on to say there is evidence that after 30 days the two vaccines no longer had any statistical significant positive effect on Omicron. But the next sentence says after 90 days (from Canada and Denmark) the vaccinated people have higher rates of Omicron infection than unvaccinated people.

No mention of severity of outcomes between Vaxxed and Un
Yeah, that's not really addressing my point, which is that data seems to be indicating different outcomes for patients once they have the virus. We know that the omicron variant has been successful at "avoiding" the vaccine and causing infection; as I stated in my post, I don't think cases are a particularly relevant metric right now. What's relevant is what happens when people get the virus.
But doesn't the number of cases signal how rampant the virus is currently? So, like, if you're trying to avoid catching it (and potentially spreading it to people you would rather not infect), wouldn't the high case #'s tell you that you should probably avoid crowded places/enforce masking policies even more?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
1/10/2022 2:10 PM
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:expand_more
But doesn't the number of cases signal how rampant the virus is currently? So, like, if you're trying to avoid catching it (and potentially spreading it to people you would rather not infect), wouldn't the high case #'s tell you that you should probably avoid crowded places/enforce masking policies even more?
I can certainly see the viewpoint.

Derek Thompson in the Atlantic -- whose Covid coverage has been the best I've seen -- made the point that Omicron's basically created two camps of people amongst the vaccinated. He refers to them as "vaxxed and done" and "vaxxed and cautious."

The vaxxed and done perspective is that the individual risk is low and for multi-vaxxed people it's basically the flu.

The vaxxed and cautious perspective is what you outline; there's good reason to still want to avoid getting sick, whether that be the risk of transmitting the disease to others and the unknowns around longterm risks.

Personally, I find a mask to be such a minor inconvenience that it no longer even registers as a restriction. I get that people are fed up with restrictions of any sort -- it's been a shitty couple of years -- but in the grand scheme of things if the extent of restrictions right now are masks and not being able to buy a bad pretzel (so I hear -- never had one myself) at the Convo, that elicits a pretty big shrug from me. After everything Americans have dealt with over the last two years, that rounds down to nothing at all, for me.

But at the same time, I get people's frustration. There's a large chunk of Americans who have been incredible selfish and downright stupid throughout this entire ordeal, and that institutions, states, local legislators, etc. are still forced to take those folks into account in policy decisions is endlessly frustrating, as is the governmental response at all levels.
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Victory
1/10/2022 2:22 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Stupid and disappointing
Agreed. The world has lost all common sense.
So you admit "common sense" doesn't exist.
It is good to know that you shouldn't get hit by a car while crossing the street. Most of us don't think about if getting hit by a car or not is a good idea when crossing the street. We just take measures to not allow it to happen without thinking much about why while we are crossing. That's what common sense IS. We don't have to waste the CPU cycles of our brains thinking about if we should or shouldn't run out into traffic. In THIS CONTEXT It is almost always a GOOD thing and is, not surprising, quite common. So it exists in spades.

What common sense ISN'T is that it is never a defense of an argument by itself. In a debate you actually have to defend WHY getting hit by a car is bad if the subject of if getting hit by cars is bad if it were to somehow ever come up. You can't just invoke "Common Sense" in this context. It means nothing in that case. In fact, it might get in the way of adapting to a world that has changed.

I would contend that when someone invokes "common sense" in a debate then it almost always because they have become used to things a certain way, have never thought about nor understand why they are that way in the first place, or if they should or should not actually still be that way, and do not want to spend time thinking about it, trying to understand it, or explaining it. In THIS CONTEXT it is almost always a BAD thing. It shuts down the potential for thought and should always be avoided in use as an argument.
Last Edited: 1/10/2022 2:31:34 PM by Victory
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Pataskala
1/10/2022 2:27 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

The ban will likely be for only a couple weeks. The current surge is expected to subside by then. Unlike earlier versions of covid, omicron seems to be more like the regular flu.

Some of this panic is being created by misinformation. NBC ran a story last night that about 2/3 of the hospitalizations in the SF Bay area that have been designated as covid-related were mislabeled. Turns out that if people are hospitalized for some other reason but test positive, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization, even if they are asymptomatic. So if somebody has a heart attack, or a traffic accident, or even a baby and they test positive on being admitted to the hospital, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization.
Good point. And, this isn't new. This has been going on since almost day one of the pandemic.
Actually, original covid caused the hospitalizations. The elderly and people with underlying conditions were more likely to get it but they were hospitalized because of covid, not their other conditions. Conservative talk show hosts spread the false information that people were being hospitalized because of their chronic health conditions instead of covid, which helped to foster denial among their followers.
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The Optimist
1/10/2022 3:03 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

The ban will likely be for only a couple weeks. The current surge is expected to subside by then. Unlike earlier versions of covid, omicron seems to be more like the regular flu.

Some of this panic is being created by misinformation. NBC ran a story last night that about 2/3 of the hospitalizations in the SF Bay area that have been designated as covid-related were mislabeled. Turns out that if people are hospitalized for some other reason but test positive, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization, even if they are asymptomatic. So if somebody has a heart attack, or a traffic accident, or even a baby and they test positive on being admitted to the hospital, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization.
Good point. And, this isn't new. This has been going on since almost day one of the pandemic.
Actually, original covid caused the hospitalizations. The elderly and people with underlying conditions were more likely to get it but they were hospitalized because of covid, not their other conditions. Conservative talk show hosts spread the false information that people were being hospitalized because of their chronic health conditions instead of covid, which helped to foster denial among their followers.
According to the CDC, 75% of deaths from Omicron have four or more comorbidities. This is hardly anything new with this variant. People didn't take care of their health and eat right for years and now it's caught up to them.
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Eagle66
1/10/2022 3:04 PM
Oh look another thread headed to Siberia….
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The Optimist
1/10/2022 3:04 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

That's very disappointing to hear. How can Ohio University ensure the water is not contaminated with COVID?
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/10/2022 3:38 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
But doesn't the number of cases signal how rampant the virus is currently? So, like, if you're trying to avoid catching it (and potentially spreading it to people you would rather not infect), wouldn't the high case #'s tell you that you should probably avoid crowded places/enforce masking policies even more?
I can certainly see the viewpoint.

Derek Thompson in the Atlantic -- whose Covid coverage has been the best I've seen -- made the point that Omicron's basically created two camps of people amongst the vaccinated. He refers to them as "vaxxed and done" and "vaxxed and cautious."

The vaxxed and done perspective is that the individual risk is low and for multi-vaxxed people it's basically the flu.

The vaxxed and cautious perspective is what you outline; there's good reason to still want to avoid getting sick, whether that be the risk of transmitting the disease to others and the unknowns around longterm risks.

Personally, I find a mask to be such a minor inconvenience that it no longer even registers as a restriction. I get that people are fed up with restrictions of any sort -- it's been a shitty couple of years -- but in the grand scheme of things if the extent of restrictions right now are masks and not being able to buy a bad pretzel (so I hear -- never had one myself) at the Convo, that elicits a pretty big shrug from me. After everything Americans have dealt with over the last two years, that rounds down to nothing at all, for me.

But at the same time, I get people's frustration. There's a large chunk of Americans who have been incredible selfish and downright stupid throughout this entire ordeal, and that institutions, states, local legislators, etc. are still forced to take those folks into account in policy decisions is endlessly frustrating, as is the governmental response at all levels.
I would consider myself in the vaxxed and cautious category simply because there are people in my life that I would like to continue to have in my life. Yes they are at higher risk due to other health issues but I don't just shrug that off and say "welp, should've made healthier decisions" like a lot of anti-masker/vaxxers tend to do.

I've had covid (during the summer surge of Delta) and had mild symptoms at most. Cough, lost smell/taste, mild body aches and that's it. I was fully vaxxed with Moderna's shot and now I am boosted and may still have natural immunity. I'm also fairly young and kicked it within a week.

I'm vaxxed and cautious because I want to protect those around me who are at high risk. Not because I'm afraid of the virus. I'm afraid of what it could take from me.
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Scott Woods
1/10/2022 3:50 PM
With no concession stands, do you think they will now allow you to bring in outside food/drink? I enjoy some popcorn while watching a game.
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person
Pataskala
1/10/2022 4:43 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

That's very disappointing to hear. How can Ohio University ensure the water is not contaminated with COVID?
It's been hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on President Sherman's porch.
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OhioCatFan
1/10/2022 6:47 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

The ban will likely be for only a couple weeks. The current surge is expected to subside by then. Unlike earlier versions of covid, omicron seems to be more like the regular flu.

Some of this panic is being created by misinformation. NBC ran a story last night that about 2/3 of the hospitalizations in the SF Bay area that have been designated as covid-related were mislabeled. Turns out that if people are hospitalized for some other reason but test positive, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization, even if they are asymptomatic. So if somebody has a heart attack, or a traffic accident, or even a baby and they test positive on being admitted to the hospital, they're reported to the CDC as a covid hospitalization.
Good point. And, this isn't new. This has been going on since almost day one of the pandemic.
Actually, original covid caused the hospitalizations. The elderly and people with underlying conditions were more likely to get it but they were hospitalized because of covid, not their other conditions. Conservative talk show hosts spread the false information that people were being hospitalized because of their chronic health conditions instead of covid, which helped to foster denial among their followers.
You are putting up a straw man. I'm not saying and didn't say that with the initial wave of Covid19 that many people in vulnerable categories didn't die of Covid19 itself. It killed a lot. What I am saying is that right from the start there were many credible examples of people who got counted as a Covid19 hospitalization and/or death when they actually were hospitalized or died with Covid19 and not because of it. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. You are trying to paint a good guys vs bad guys scenario that ignores the complexity of these issues.
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JSF
1/10/2022 7:33 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

That's very disappointing to hear. How can Ohio University ensure the water is not contaminated with COVID?
It's been hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on President Sherman's porch.
That’s what that was!
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The Optimist
1/11/2022 9:45 AM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
For what reason?
Lowering your mask to eat popcorn or drink water could potentially spread COVID.

It's simply not worth the risk.
But they're providing water, so that can't be the reason.

That's very disappointing to hear. How can Ohio University ensure the water is not contaminated with COVID?
It's been hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on President Sherman's porch.
This is very reassuring. Great to see the University taking proactive measures to keep the community safe.

Do you know the source of the water? I've always had a taste for Athens County spring water. I've found that mine runoff promotes strong Iron Sulfide levels in the water and I am Iron deficient.
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person
Recovering Journalist
1/11/2022 10:30 AM
A little dose of reality for anyone still mourning fountain Pepsi and synthetic butter popcorn.

New record for COVID hospitalizations:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-breaks-covid-19-hospi... /
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