Tim O'Shea's record at the end of his first 3 years was 41 wins and 47 losses.  O'Shea's MAC Record was 26 & 28 after his first 3 years. When a coaches first recruits are seniors and he's not winning, then there's a time to be concerned. but right now,  Coach Groce is trying to build a program and some of you think it should happen over night,  it just doesn't work that way. I like the direction Ohio is heading under Coach Groce, but its a process and we all have to be a little patient.

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Dennis "Gman"   "DON'T  FLINCH"

Flomo, I agree with your assessment. The MAC is weak. You can see it with teams getting beat by 35-50 points when they play above their head. A good team should win a game against Marshall and Oakland at home. I saw the opener against Delaware and we certainly have enough size and talent to be a good team. I'm not saying this is a great team, but home wins against similatar competetion says to me you are solid. Up to this point we are not.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that TOS underachieved his first few years, and that he inherited more talent than JG did.  But that is all beside the point.  The point is that almost everyone hoped that JG would be able to elevate the program beyond the point that TOS had settled in at, but instead we have actually gotten worse on a winning percentage basis under JG.  Again, I completely admit that the cupboard wasn't loaded when JG took over, but I do think that our talent has been better than a cumulative 14-18 MAC record under JG, given the depths the conference has fallen to the past couple years.  I also think that JG would have better than a 7-21 road record if he were really as good an in-game coach as some here believe.  Finally, I agree with giacomo that we shouldn't be losing at home to Marshall, getting worked as badly as we were by Oakland at home, or losing by nearly 60 points on a neutral court to Kansas.  All of those are signs of extremely mediocre bench coaching to me, inexperience or not.

Edit: Look, I was as big a Groce supporter as anyone when he took over.  Hell, I was the first to throw his name out for the job on here.  And I had high hopes for him after an impressive early road win at Austin Peay.  But aside from one week last March, overall this program has not developed the way I believed it would under Groce's stewardship.  He has had too much talent to finish last in the MAC East two consecutive years.

I'm not caught up on Oakland's name.  I know they are good, and predicted a loss in that game.  I just never would have guessed we'd be down by ~15 points most of the second half, especially not with Benson on the bench most of the game.  In short, the loss didn't surprise me so much as the fact we were never really in the game.  That shouldn't have been the case.



I totally agree there.  But I'm more focused at this point on where the program is headed for the next few years.  I am concerned because last March increasingly looks like the abberation, in which case I'm not sure that JG will be the one to elevate this program to the heights we were expecting.

Just to be clear, though, I do think that we will improve over the next two years, and still hold out hope that JG will eventually get us where we hope to go.  All I'm saying is that the overall results to date have, thus far, been disappointing on the whole, and that JG needs to improve himself to get us where I think (and hope) he can.

I agree about the waiting and trusting part. Groce has us in the right recruiting circles, has pushed out the recruiting horizon like we haven't seen before and appears to be trying to build in discipline and accountability. I also don't think you can discount the impact of Coleman leaving this team and that's something I don't think you can leave  entirely at Groce's feet.

However, I am very worried about the lack of size on the roster. I've always felt that to win consistently (and on the road) you need a way to get easy baskets and not give them up. For better or worse, I look at 2-point FG percentage. I think you need big guys to help make this happen. Keely and Baltic are undersized and don't seem to be able to help at the rim defensively. Unless Jon Smith or Ethan Jacobs pan out, there's no one else on the horizon.

This season, Ohio is allowing 54.1% 2-point FG percentage (310th in the country) and hitting just 44.4% (249th in the country) of its 2-pointers. This may improve in MAC play but against the better MAC and non-con foes this is an issue.

In 2009-10, Ohio was better defensively on 2's at 47.0% (133rd in the country) possibly due to KVK walling up at the rim? They weren't very good offensively on 2's at 46.4% (223rd in the country). KVK was not a good 2-point shooter (he took the most 2's on the team at 241 but hit just 46.5%). However, Ohio compensated on offense by not turning the ball over and shooting the 3 well.

In 2008-09, Ohio again struggled defensivelyon 2's at 50.6% (271st in the country) and offensively at 47.2% (199th in the country).

I think to get to be a MAC regular season title contender and perform better against good non-con foes we're going to need some big men. I know we can't get UNC big guys, I'm just talking about decent MAC big men.

I'm not so sure Ohio is playing an up-tempo game under Groce. I know he's talked about it but I can't say I've seen too much of that style this year. I would love to see this team get the ball and run, led by DJ with our athletic wings/forwards filling in the lanes. And the few times Ohio has attempted a fullcourt press the result has been easy layups at the other end.

Perhaps, JCW, but by uptempo I think of a team fast-breaking off of turnovers, rebounds and even made baskets and then pressing off their own baskets. I haven't seen much of this and when I have (the pressing part) the results haven't been too favorable.

I agree as well.  Some of this is likely a system preference, though.  We have targeted high post bigs that can run the floor, and while I don't mean to suggest that those type of guys can never bang down low on defense, in general they aren't going to be as physical in the paint and on the defensive glass (especially not the ones we're going to be getting at our level). 

That's simply not true.  O'Shea's second season was the massively-disappointing 02-03 campaign in which they were picked to win the MAC and finished with the 11th seed.  The next season, they lost 20 games and finished 10th in the conference. Heck, in his first season, he inherited a boatload of talent and managed to finish 6th and lose to Central Michigan at home in the MAC tournament.

O'Shea's MAC records by season: 11-7, 8-10, 7-11, 11-7, 10-8, 9-7, 9-7.  Even with NBA and high European-league talents, he was never more than just above .500.

But Groce has to have a winning record this year.  Has to.  If he can't do it this year, he might not ever be able to.

I agree. I know that our number show that we have a lot of possesions, but I think that has a lot to do with the fact that we have been taking shots early in the shot clock in half court sets, not that we have been getting out and running. Also, we have done a decent job on the offensive glass, which usually lead to quick second shots.

The major issue that I see is that we are not very good on the defensive glass. We give up a lot of offensive rebounds and even on plays that we grab a defensive rebound, it is usually after the ball has been knocked around a lot.  Tough to get to the other side of the court before the other team when it takes a few extra seconds to secure the rebounds we are able to grab.

Probably too deep for a casual fan board, but as I watch OHIO Hoops from a spectators perspective I find myself thinking these principles are playing themselves out.  I've found that most new leaders (and by new I define someone like JG who's running his own show for the first time after being a long term assistant) have to work through a maturation process in regards to developing their organizations in regards to people.  Whether it relates to a business, a nonprofit ,or a sports team--I see it taking place when people are involved.

Great Leaders are able to:
1.  Recruit great talent that match the organizations values
2.  Engage and develop people and build strong relationships
3.  Build cohesive teams that work well together.

When I train new leaders I usually don't make a determination whether a leader has "IT" in regards to team building until after year #3 as it usually takes this long to establish core values, find the right system, find the right co-leaders, find their right management style and find the right people who fit the system.

From an outsiders perspective I have little doubt JG will figure this out, but as with most new leaders, he's working through the process.  It "appears" he's got part of Step #1 figured out.  I think he's bringing in quality talent.  It's apparent he's good at camps, he's good in the recruits living rooms, he's good on the phone, he looks the part on the sideline and he talks the part on the mic.  Bottom line, he's got charisma and simply at face value looks like better stock than most of the MAC coaches.  Where the process will need to improve for him to become the next level coach is figuring out the second half of Step #1, along with Steps #2 & #3.  I've met lots of leaders who interviewed well and looked the part, yet couldn't produce consistent results initially (or ever) 

It appears many of last years recruits had good talent, but didn't match JG core values off the court in what they did with their spare time.  Hence, many are gone.  Step #2, buidling strong relationships also appears to be a work in process as our turnover rate is way too high if/when relationship are strong.  And it's not like these guys left for greener pastures.  In fact, most left and took a step backwards & down. 

And finally, great leaders are able to mesh teams to create a cohesive unit wherein each part compliments one another (kind of the "take one for the team" mentality).  Obviously we spent nearly all of last year and the first quarter of this season trying to get everyone on the same page.  It takes a special leader to create an atmosphere where you take C level talent and turn it into B teams and B level talent turns into A teams.  As I watched the Patriots tonight (and I'm not a fan) I'm impressed that despite the names on the jerseys changing at record pace these past couple years, they just churn out solid seasons (and yes, it doesn't hurt to have Brady at QB through it all, I know).  Sticking with the Patriots illustration, their locker room is strong and you just don't count them out.  I think everyone on that team believes in their coach, the system, and they know what's expected to be a Patriot.  You don't have to be a fan to see that guys like Bill have figured it out over the years.

All this said, as a MAC school we're going to get lots of first time head coaches.  And first time head coaches are here for a reason--to learn how to bring in quality athletes and develop them into quality teams.  If that were easy, a guy like JG would probably skip this portion of the process and go straight to the ACC.  However any leader will tell you that figuring out how to build winning organizations takes trial and error.  I'm hoping we're seeing this process go through its cycle with JG.  And the sad part is, once the light bulb goes off in a leaders head that he/she has it figured out--they get the itch to take their talents to a larger stage thus using you as their leadership training laboratory.

Interesting thinking, CGeorge.

Let me take another part of the picture you paint.  I think that football and basketball have now good depth but a lack of stars.  We need more guys who are quite dominating.  If each sport can sprinkle in a few of those, it could get real fun.

Great stuff Chicken George.  You stated much better than I where it is that Groce really needs to improve, if he's ever going to reach his coaching potential.