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Topic: Uncoachable/Unteachable
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tiptondevilcat
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Posted: 12/13/2010 9:39 AM
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I was listening to the radio post game yesterday. After the game the coach said something about players being uncoachable and/or unteachable. What did he mean by that as I just caught it out of the corner of my ear? It was something about making mistakes that they should not have been making after this many practices.

I woulda thought you would have figgured that out in the recruiting process. Is he talking about the freshmen or others?
JSF
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Posted: 12/13/2010 9:50 AM
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You'd think, but if that were the case, the landscape of college basketball would be very different.

It can mean a lot of things.  It can mean a player simply doesn't listen.  It can mean a player, for whatever reason, doesn't have the capacity to absorb lessons.  It can mean a player thinks he knows better than the coach.  Or it could mean something else entirely.
BobcatGman
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Posted: 12/13/2010 10:11 AM
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         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

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Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"
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Posted: 12/13/2010 10:31 AM
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JG said on the post game that there were TWO players who were "unteachable" vs. IUPUI.  He said that's different from being "uncoachable."  He said the players in question were willing to be coached, but were not able to apply in the game the instructions they received during the game.  

He didn't identify who the two players were.   
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Posted: 12/13/2010 1:10 PM
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BobcatGman wrote:expand_more
         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


Sayles is the only person i see that is vocal at all. When he is on the bench he is yelling and pumping up the guys all game long and when he is on the floor he is the only one on the floor talking...The rest of the team needs to look at that is copy that. Sayles has been really impressive with his leadership.
bobcatsquared
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Posted: 12/13/2010 1:20 PM
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BobcatGman wrote:expand_more
         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

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Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"


I've said it before, but again, I respectfully disagree. I hate hearing this every pre-season when Ohio does poorly against non-conference opponents.

So, only games in March count? When Ohio is playing in a tournament with teams from the 20th best conference in the country to gain a 14th seed? I'm hoping for a Bobcat team that is more than the best team in a conference that is getting weaker by the season. I want a team that can beat Oakland, Marshall and IUPUI at home (or at least 2 of 3?) in December and can combine an impressive overall record with a good league record.

Maybe next year.
JSF
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Posted: 12/13/2010 1:27 PM
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You're putting words in Dennis' mouth a little.  He said conference play is more important than non-conference play, and I'm inclined to agree.  No measure of OOC success matters if we stumble in MAC play.
Casper71
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Posted: 12/13/2010 2:07 PM
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Hey, these are kids JG recruited...

And,  would we have lost to IUPUI or Oakland at home 10 years ago?  Just asking.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 2:11 PM
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BobcatGman wrote:expand_more
         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

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Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"


Last year, the ship was not righted until very late in the regular season and the MAC tournament and as I recall we needed 2 overtime victories to win the MAC.  Can anyone honestly say after the start to this season (9 games) that we are likely to do that again this year?  Where is the next AB who went crazy in the tourament to get us to the NCAA's?  We are simply too young and  too inconsistent to repeat IMO.  I don't like the "only the MAC season counts or Only the tournament counts" that folks throw out.  Every game counts-that's why they keep records-they're not exhibitions-that time has passed.  Better records mean better crowds, more attention nationally and should be signs to recruits that the team is on the rise.  From the outside, the team looks in turmoil with all the player defections over the past 2 years.  Thank God for Cooper or we would never win a game.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 2:30 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Hey, these are kids JG recruited...

And,  would we have lost to IUPUI or Oakland at home 10 years ago?  Just asking.


They were probably less likely to lose at home to those teams 10 years ago, yes.

Now the real question is if that's a product of Groce, or of a MAC that is colossally weaker than it was 10 years ago.

I vote for the "MAC is down argument." In fact there's a thread also on the first page of this board dedicated to that subject. Hard to sustain basketball success when the league decides as a whole to spend on the football arms race. Conferences like the Colonial and the Valley have far surpassed us. It's killed the talent and level of basketball played in this league, and it has made us easier prey to the IUPUIs and Oaklands of the world.
Last Edited: 12/13/2010 2:31:24 PM by HeHateMiami
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Posted: 12/13/2010 2:49 PM
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As I noted in the post on the other thread referenced by HeHate, the Sun Belt is going through the same throes.

RE:  IUPUI and Oakland...to be honest, we have to recognize that these teams are far from being bottom feeders in Div. I.  The Summit League has gotten stronger over the years, and these two teams are among the better teams in the league. 

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Posted: 12/13/2010 3:50 PM
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HeHateMiami wrote:expand_more
Hey, these are kids JG recruited...

And,  would we have lost to IUPUI or Oakland at home 10 years ago?  Just asking.


They were probably less likely to lose at home to those teams 10 years ago, yes.

Now the real question is if that's a product of Groce, or of a MAC that is colossally weaker than it was 10 years ago.

I vote for the "MAC is down argument." In fact there's a thread also on the first page of this board dedicated to that subject. Hard to sustain basketball success when the league decides as a whole to spend on the football arms race. Conferences like the Colonial and the Valley have far surpassed us. It's killed the talent and level of basketball played in this league, and it has made us easier prey to the IUPUIs and Oaklands of the world.


Did you read that thread?

In the 2000-2001 season (10 years ago), the MAC was the 15th ranked conference in terms of RPI. It was 16th last year and 17th as of today. How is that "colosally weaker"?

And please tell me what football arms race the MAC is engaged in. And when it started? The MAC was the 12th-ranked basketball conference in 2007-08. Was the arms race before or after that? Toledo spent millions on its basketball arena, CMU just opened a new one, BG will roll one out next year, Ohio's basketball facility is better than its football facility, etc.

If you get rid of football or lessen the investment, the dollars go away. They don't get reallocated to basketball. If there is a reason that the Valley is ahead of the MAC, its because some of its programs are in large metro areas that generate big dollars. If that were the case in the MAC and dollars generated were siphoned off into football, you might have an argument. And the Valley hasn't surpassed the MAC. It was better 10 years ago and is better now. Stop with the revisionist history of the MAC.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 3:58 PM
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bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.
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Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"


I've said it before, but again, I respectfully disagree. I hate hearing this every pre-season when Ohio does poorly against non-conference opponents.

So, only games in March count? When Ohio is playing in a tournament with teams from the 20th best conference in the country to gain a 14th seed? I'm hoping for a Bobcat team that is more than the best team in a conference that is getting weaker by the season. I want a team that can beat Oakland, Marshall and IUPUI at home (or at least 2 of 3?) in December and can combine an impressive overall record with a good league record.

Maybe next year


I try to have your back roomie, but can't here.  You are known for monitoring the english language - missed it here.  "most important" - if we are "right" at some point, it better be during conference play.  I agree, I want a team that goes on a run in Nov/Dec.  It helps prepare for conference and gives us a pelt or two come at-large time.  But as soon as we got blown out by Kansas and lost to Oakland and Marshall, an at-large was lost.  So let's get ready for conference play.  That said, I am worried about this team.  January is approaching and they are not on top of it.
Last Edited: 12/13/2010 4:00:00 PM by cc-cat
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Posted: 12/13/2010 4:38 PM
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Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
If there is a reason that the Valley is ahead of the MAC, its because some of its programs are in large metro areas that generate big dollars. If that were the case in the MAC and dollars generated were siphoned off into football, you might have an argument. And the Valley hasn't surpassed the MAC. It was better 10 years ago and is better now. Stop with the revisionist history of the MAC.


I'm not so much worried about the Valley, as I am about the Colonial, Horizon, and upper echelons of the Summit overtaking the MAC.  While the CAA and Horizon were competitive with the MAC historically when their strong years coincided with a down year in the MAC, today those conferences have surpassed the MAC.  Particularly distressing is the fact that the Horizon has passed us by to become the premier mid-major league in our region. 

For example, in 1998-99 the MAC was the 11th rated conference by RPI, while the Horizon was 15th and the Colonial 17th.  In 1999-2000 the MAC was 12th, the Horizon 13th, and the Colonial 16th.  Meanwhile, in the last three years we've seen a complete reversal.  In 2008-2009, the Horizon was 12th, the CAA 14th, and the MAC 21st in conference RPI.  In 2009-2010, the CAA was 12th, the Horizon 14th, and the MAC 16th.  So far this year, the CAA is 8th, the Horizon 12th, and the MAC 17th.  According to Ken Pomeroy's ratings, we haven't finished ahead of the Horizon as a conference since 2005.

I'm not sure where to readily find the historical budgetary data you'd need, but I'm willing to bet that our basketball spending simply has not kept pace with the CAA, Horizon, and upper-level of the Summit over the last decade.  And I'll also bet dollars to donuts that during that same period MAC schools have increased their football budgets by an amount roughly on par (and likely more than) the gap between our basketball spending on the other mid-majors in our region.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 4:59 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
If there is a reason that the Valley is ahead of the MAC, its because some of its programs are in large metro areas that generate big dollars. If that were the case in the MAC and dollars generated were siphoned off into football, you might have an argument. And the Valley hasn't surpassed the MAC. It was better 10 years ago and is better now. Stop with the revisionist history of the MAC.


I'm not so much worried about the Valley, as I am about the Colonial, Horizon, and upper echelons of the Summit overtaking the MAC.  While the CAA and Horizon were competitive with the MAC historically when their strong years coincided with a down year in the MAC, today those conferences have surpassed the MAC.  Particularly distressing is the fact that the Horizon has passed us by to become the premier mid-major league in our region. 

For example, in 1998-99 the MAC was the 11th rated conference by RPI, while the Horizon was 15th and the Colonial 17th.  In 1999-2000 the MAC was 12th, the Horizon 13th, and the Colonial 16th.  Meanwhile, in the last three years we've seen a complete reversal.  In 2008-2009, the Horizon was 12th, the CAA 14th, and the MAC 21st in conference RPI.  In 2009-2010, the CAA was 12th, the Horizon 14th, and the MAC 16th.  So far this year, the CAA is 8th, the Horizon 12th, and the MAC 17th.  According to Ken Pomeroy's ratings, we haven't finished ahead of the Horizon as a conference since 2005.

I'm not sure where to readily find the historical budgetary data you'd need, but I'm willing to bet that our basketball spending simply has not kept pace with the CAA, Horizon, and upper-level of the Summit over the last decade.  And I'll also bet dollars to donuts that during that same period MAC schools have increased their football budgets by an amount roughly on par (and likely more than) the gap between our basketball spending on the other mid-majors in our region.


Did the Horizon truly do something to make it better than the MAC? Or did Butler just get very good and Cleveland St. hire Gary Waters? The MAC just hired away a coach from the Horizon so I'm not sure there's a lack of investment in the MAC.

Again, what pot of gold shows up if Ohio does away with football?

Last year, Horizon was 14th thanks to Butler being 12th.

The CAA has added 6 teams and lost 3 in the last 10 years so that's not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 6:16 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Hey, these are kids JG recruited...

And,  would we have lost to IUPUI or Oakland at home 10 years ago?  Just asking.


10 years ago = Larry Hunter = NO WAY, but we were more established and the conference was better than.  This team will find it's stroke!
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Posted: 12/13/2010 6:26 PM
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bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=BobcatGman]

         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"


I've said it before, but again, I respectfully disagree. I hate hearing this every pre-season when Ohio does poorly against non-conference opponents.

So, only games in March count? When Ohio is playing in a tournament with teams from the 20th best conference in the country to gain a 14th seed? I'm hoping for a Bobcat team that is more than the best team in a conference that is getting weaker by the season. I want a team that can beat Oakland, Marshall and IUPUI at home (or at least 2 of 3?) in December and can combine an impressive overall record with a good league record.

Maybe next year.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




  Where did I say "only March counts"    You play non-conference games, to get your team ready for conference play, sure its nice to win some of those games, but its not the end of the world if you don't,  Its all about making adjustments to your team, experiment with your line-up and getting them ready to win the MAC Conference and getting the automatic bid to the NIT or winning the MAC Tournament and getting to the NCAA Tournament. Losing to Oakland, Marshall or even IUPUI will have no effect on our MAC Season. You go back,  watch film ,  make adjustments to make your team better  to win the MAC, because that is the "most important thing".  You think Charlie Coles is losing sleep because his Red-Chickens are 5 and 5 ?  I think not, because he knows the Big Prize is winning the MAC and the same goes with us.

------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"
Last Edited: 12/13/2010 6:34:03 PM by BobcatGman
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Posted: 12/13/2010 6:45 PM
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BobcatGman wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=BobcatGman]

         Wonder how the players liked getting up for a 6:30 am practice this morning. I'm not to concerned with the team, Groce will steady the ship come MAC play and that's what is most important.  But I'm still waiting for a player on this team, to step up and be a leader , be vocal, show some emotion.  This team is lacking that at the moment.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"


I've said it before, but again, I respectfully disagree. I hate hearing this every pre-season when Ohio does poorly against non-conference opponents.

So, only games in March count? When Ohio is playing in a tournament with teams from the 20th best conference in the country to gain a 14th seed? I'm hoping for a Bobcat team that is more than the best team in a conference that is getting weaker by the season. I want a team that can beat Oakland, Marshall and IUPUI at home (or at least 2 of 3?) in December and can combine an impressive overall record with a good league record.

Maybe next year.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




  Where did I say "only March counts"    You play non-conference games, to get your team ready for conference play, sure its nice to win some of those games, but its not the end of the world if you don't,  Its all about making adjustments to your team, experiment with your line-up and getting them ready to win the MAC Conference and getting the automatic bid to the NIT or winning the MAC Tournament and getting to the NCAA Tournament. Losing to Oakland, Marshall or even IUPUI will have no effect on our MAC Season. You go back,  watch film ,  make adjustments to make your team better  to win the MAC, because that is the "most important thing".  You think Charlie Coles is losing sleep because his Red-Chickens are 5 and 5 ?  I think not, because he knows the Big Prize is winning the MAC and the same goes with us.

------------------------------------------------------------


Charlie may not be so worried because he's played the 65 toughest schedule per Sagarin, we've played the 164th.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 6:51 PM
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Personally, I don't know why we even play home games in December.  We are in a unique position in that the players have no academic responsibilities.  Take 'em on the road.  Play anyone anywhere.  Almost a barnstorm approach (acknowledging we can only play so many games).
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Posted: 12/13/2010 7:50 PM
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Casper, aren't DeVaughn, Tommy and Sayles all part of the O'Shea regime recruiting efforts? All the rest, including the walk-ons are Groce guys to my knowledge.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 7:59 PM
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G-man, your arguments are terrible (respectfully speaking)....

The goal is not only to blow through MAC play successfully, but to win non conference games so that if you do have a mis-step in MAC play...you have at least an outside chance of getting selected to the dance as an at-large.

To say these games don't matter is completely ridiculous. I would hope your beloved Coach Groce is trying to enhance the profile of the team in the eyes of the National Media. That can only be accomplished by being a part of the NCAA Tournament, which has 2 points of entry. MAC Tourney Champs or At-Large.

We should be well past the point where the non-conference slate is a learning experience. The non-conference games should be used as a tool to help take us to the heights we need to achieve as a program.

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Posted: 12/13/2010 8:39 PM
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Bobcat Love wrote:expand_more
G-man, your arguments are terrible (respectfully speaking)....

The goal is not only to blow through MAC play successfully, but to win non conference games so that if you do have a mis-step in MAC play...you have at least an outside chance of getting selected to the dance as an at-large.

To say these games don't matter is completely ridiculous. I would hope your beloved Coach Groce is trying to enhance the profile of the team in the eyes of the National Media. That can only be accomplished by being a part of the NCAA Tournament, which has 2 points of entry. MAC Tourney Champs or At-Large.

We should be well past the point where the non-conference slate is a learning experience. The non-conference games should be used as a tool to help take us to the heights we need to achieve as a program.



            And how many At-Large Bids has the MAC received to the NCAA in the last 10 years ?    Exactly !   It's all about the Conference.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dennis "Gman"   "DON"T  FLINCH"
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Posted: 12/13/2010 8:54 PM
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BobcatGman wrote:expand_more
            And how many At-Large Bids has the MAC received to the NCAA in the last 10 years ?    Exactly !   It's all about the Conference.


It would be nice to put ourselves in contention for the NIT or even the CBI or CIT if we stumble in the MAC tournament. Any postseason tournament is better than no post season tournament.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 10:02 PM
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It doesn't matter how many MAC teams have had an at large, it matters about what Ohio does and Ohio does only as it pertains to this board and what the OOC schedule means. To go in on the argument of only the MAC season counts (which to a degree is true) is the fact that if you do win the conference tournament your seed in the NCAA is based on your entire season. So with the way our OOC results have been up to this date, if we were to win the MAC again we'd be stuck with a 14 seed again. However if we were to take care of business at home and only have a neutral court loss to Kansas then we could be looking at a better seed. The MAC tournament is our only guaranteed spot at a NCAA bid but the entire season builds the type of resume we're going to have when it gets to that time.
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Posted: 12/13/2010 10:45 PM
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Ohio Hoops wrote:expand_more
It doesn't matter how many MAC teams have had an at large, it matters about what Ohio does and Ohio does only as it pertains to this board and what the OOC schedule means. To go in on the argument of only the MAC season counts (which to a degree is true) is the fact that if you do win the conference tournament your seed in the NCAA is based on your entire season. So with the way our OOC results have been up to this date, if we were to win the MAC again we'd be stuck with a 14 seed again. However if we were to take care of business at home and only have a neutral court loss to Kansas then we could be looking at a better seed. The MAC tournament is our only guaranteed spot at a NCAA bid but the entire season builds the type of resume we're going to have when it gets to that time.


Bang. G-man, your note even close. The MAC's at-large history has NOTHING to do with our (or any other team's body of work) this year. If you rifle through a strong non-conference schedule, take care of business in the MAC regular season, and trip up in the MAC Tourney final...you have a better than average shot of being recognized in the field of 68 (for the record, the only tournament I care about/acknowledge). If you putz around in the non conference, have a good MAC season, then flub the tournament - you're done. I'll take the option of playing hard and winning in the non-con...as I'm sure most everyone would.
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