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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: The Neverending Debate - Money, Recruiting, and the MAC's Continual Slide
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Ozcat
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Posted: 1/19/2011 3:07 PM
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Cowherd had an interesting discussion this morning that I think applies to OU, indirectly.

His premise is that there are two teams that are heading towards perennial top 10 rankings (football) - Oregon and Oklahoma State.  His argument is they have kicked up their recruiting to new levels, scouring the nation, not a region, for talent.  They are landing kids from all over the place, and putting together top ranked recruiting classes year after year.

How can they do this?  Simple answers:  Phil Knight and T. Boone Pickens.

This led me to think about the slide in the MAC's football and basketball programs.  No school in the MAC has a mega-booster, which has instantly thrusted two non-traditional powers into consistent contenders.

My point is that I think it's pretty clear that OU, and the MAC in general, is trying to spread too few resources over two major programs.  Recruiting comes down to money, and money.  Facilities help, but those cost money.

I heard the other day on the radio that Matta will occasionally fly to AAU games that may be played on Sunday mornings.  This has helped land him kids from Jersey, Georgia, and Chicago next year.  It's probably very impressive to kids when a head coach shows up to a little AAU game on a Sunday.

I doubt OU has the resources to do this.  It's clear that college athletics is all about money, and when we have faculty pissed off about the little amount we spend on athletics currently, I think it's clear we are at a major disadvantage.

If we only had one sport to fund, I think it would be huge for the program that was around.  I think Solich would love an additional $500k to go scout and recruit in Nebraska.  Groce could probably work wonders with double the budget as well, especially if we had a practice facility.

Food for thought.  Feedback...
shabamon
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Posted: 1/19/2011 3:32 PM
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Money, money, and money. BGSU is set to formally announce an $8M donation to the men's basketball team. It will be the highest single-sport donation in the history of MAC athletics. In reading AZZ, it appears that they will use the money to increase coaching salaries, expand recruiting budgets, help fund the Stroh Center, and get a couple big name buy games.

On the flip side, Butler has been able to build a sturdy basketball program with a men's basketball budget nearly equal to Ohio's.
The Optimist
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Posted: 1/19/2011 4:01 PM
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So you are saying we need a super-donor?

Patience... I graduate next year and I think we can all safely assume I'll have acquired a T. Boone Pickens-esque fortune within 5-7 years.  Does a $2-$1 athletics to academics donating ratio work for everyone here??


Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 1/19/2011 4:05 PM
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I think Ozcat is on the right track.

Does the Butler figures include private donations?  Even if it doesn't, the overall data for college hoops proves that the level of basketball budgets is the key factor which determines the competitive success of a conference or team.
Ohio69
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Posted: 1/19/2011 5:19 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Does a $2-$1 athletics to academics donating ratio work for everyone here??




Nah.  Make it 3 to zero.
KC Bobcat
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Posted: 1/19/2011 5:40 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
So you are saying we need a super-donor?

Patience... I graduate next year and I think we can all safely assume I'll have acquired a T. Boone Pickens-esque fortune within 5-7 years.  Does a $2-$1 athletics to academics donating ratio work for everyone here??




What an appropriate name you have Optimist.  I'm pulling for you.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 1/19/2011 6:16 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
.

Does the Butler figures include private donations?  Even if it doesn't, the overall data for college hoops proves that the level of basketball budgets is the key factor which determines the competitive success of a conference or team.


Bring that data to the Green and White tailgate at the Oak Room on Saturday Jeff.  That would be a great topic of discussion.
Panda
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Posted: 1/19/2011 6:57 PM
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Make that a 10 million dollar gift(endowment) for basketball.  Coaches Salaries, recruiting,  and what ever they wan!!!!
Last Edited: 1/19/2011 6:59:29 PM by Panda
Alan Swank
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Posted: 1/19/2011 7:06 PM
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This one is even better - The Joel E. Smilow Class of 1954 Head Basketball Coach at Yale.  Now that's some serious money.

http://opac.yale.edu/news/article.aspx?id=1531



http://www.yalebulldogs.com/sports/m-baskbl/coaches/index
Last Edited: 1/19/2011 7:09:12 PM by Alan Swank
txshack
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Posted: 1/19/2011 9:16 PM
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As you walk aound the Oklahoma St. campus it is truly amazing what T. Boone has done. When I visited last year he had retro fitted the basketball arena,rebuilt the football stadium and was in the process of building a new baseball complex and what was described as a better than olympic type village for all sports participants. Everyone I spoke with talked about him like they knew him ...kinda like a favorite grandfather. 
Ozcat
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Posted: 1/20/2011 10:47 AM
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Money is one very large factor.

Yes, Butler has done pretty well.  However, they have a few things going for it that we do not.  They do not have football, so the fan support is there.  Without looking, I would guess that they draw in more $$$ per game than we do.  They also reside in a major metropolitan area.

Most major programs, or even the mid-majors that do well consistently, seem to have a little of both.  Gonzaga is in Seattle, San Diego State is in....if I have to tell you...ok, moving on.

With our facilities, fan support, and campus, it still blows me away that we cannot run circles around the rest of the MAC in recruiting.  Any kid that visited OU, Miami, Kent, Akron, CMU, or Buffalo would have to like Athens more, no?

I'd also like to see how many other programs that are trying to 'take it to the next level' are facing the level of split-fence that we currently are between academia/athletics.  Sort of hard to ramp up athletic spending when the Dean of Philisophical Science is screaming bloody murder...

ou79
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Posted: 1/20/2011 11:01 AM
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Not to nit-pic, but Gonzaga is actually in Spokane with a satelite in Florence.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 1/20/2011 11:12 AM
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Butler actually does have football...non-scholarship Div. I. 

As for Ohio's recruiting...we have to be realistic and a little humble.  Some kids prefer urban environments.  To some kids, Akron, Toledo, and Buffalo are more appealing. 
Ozcat
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Posted: 1/20/2011 11:53 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Some kids prefer urban environments.  To some kids, Akron, Toledo, and Buffalo are more appealing. 

Very true.  I know how to counter though. 

Pawpurr's for Primetime, then to the 'Skin for a Black Widow, then to the Pub for the remainder of the evening.  This needs to be part of every recruiting visit.  Nevermind that they are usually only 18...
colobobcat66
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Posted: 1/20/2011 12:26 PM
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Ozcat wrote:expand_more
Some kids prefer urban environments.  To some kids, Akron, Toledo, and Buffalo are more appealing. 

Very true.  I know how to counter though. 

Pawpurr's for Primetime, then to the 'Skin for a Black Widow, then to the Pub for the remainder of the evening.  This needs to be part of every recruiting visit.  Nevermind that they are usually only 18...


Well, if the bars are what they're looking for to commit, we're in trouble. You really want kids who think that's the most important thing?  Sorry, I don't.  How did that Boo Jackson trip with the recruits work out for you?

How many good recruits do we lose because the parents don't like the Ohio reputation for partying?  It's a problem, not something to be boasting about.
Last Edited: 1/20/2011 12:27:56 PM by colobobcat66
PutnamField
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Posted: 1/20/2011 1:03 PM
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Ozcat wrote:expand_more
Some kids prefer urban environments.  To some kids, Akron, Toledo, and Buffalo are more appealing. 

Very true.  I know how to counter though. 

Pawpurr's for Primetime, then to the 'Skin for a Black Widow, then to the Pub for the remainder of the evening.  This needs to be part of every recruiting visit.  Nevermind that they are usually only 18...



Would you please just go root for OSU?

You are why Jim Rome uses the term clones.
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 1/20/2011 1:29 PM
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I've posed this question many times and still don't think anyone has come up with an answer.  Can you think of an athletic program that is both NOT in a major conference and NOT in (or very near) a decent sized city that has as much fan support as we do?
bobcat695
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Posted: 1/20/2011 1:45 PM
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If you do not count Conference USA as a major conference, I would say Marshall and Southern Miss.  Both cities are under 50,000 and their fan support, particularly for football, is much greater than ours. 
Last Edited: 1/20/2011 1:58:52 PM by bobcat695
John C. Wanamaker
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Posted: 1/20/2011 1:54 PM
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bobcat695 wrote:expand_more
I you do not count Conference USA as a major conference, I would say Marshall and Southern Miss. Both cities are under 50,000 and their fan support, particularly for football, is much greater than ours.

Huntington has a metro area of 285,000 people within in 30 miles
bobcat695
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Posted: 1/20/2011 2:02 PM
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Athens has its own MSA, but if you count 30 miles or so around you can throw the 160,000 from Parkersburg/Marietta into it.  With that said, Huntington is a bigger city with both population and industry.  It just isn't 10x as big.
Ozcat
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Posted: 1/20/2011 3:32 PM
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colo - I was being facetious.  No, we should should not take recruits to bars.  My point is, maybe you like urban Akron, but Athens is just as much, if not more, of a a good time.


Putnam - Wow.  I didn't even mention OSU one time in this entire thread.  But thank you for your well thought-out, productive comment to the conversation.
sargentfan
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Posted: 1/20/2011 3:46 PM
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I do think we have some great advantages in recruiting with Solich, Groce, comparative athletic success, our campus, and our fan support compared to other MAC schools.  The problem we are going to run into are with facilities, if more MAC schools get new stadiums or athletic complexes it will hurt our recruiting.  I'm sorry to say as of right now there is nothing about our facilities that really draw a recruit in.  Probably your next best recruiting help after the aforementioned are the ladies of OHIO if you give a recruit a tour during the Spring.
giacomo
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Posted: 1/20/2011 5:04 PM
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Money is the biggest factor by far. The average budget for MAC hoop teams is in the 1.2M to 1.5M range. In the Big East, it's around 4 to 5M. Not being in a bigger market doesn't hurt that much, IMO, because if we spent the money and had bigger name teams coming in, we would draw much better. Right now the students and townspeople think of MAC sports as second tier. I think we are and should be perceived to be the only game in town.  It won't happen, though, as we are committed to the budget range of MAC sports and there would be no point spending more money to play in the MAC.

If we had a Pickens type benefactor that would kick in a mil or two each year, we could buy some home games and elevate our coaching staff, and continue to play and dominate the MAC.
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 1/20/2011 9:41 PM
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  1. I don't think Huntington qualifies as small city, as Wanamaker eluded to.  At best, it's pushing it.
  2. CUSA is on the brink of being a major conference.
  3. Without looking, I'm not sure they have much better fan support than us, at least in basketball.
Those 3 reasons combined and Im gonna DQ Marshall, but it was a decent shot.

Southern Miss is about the best answer yet...Hattiesburg is probably fairly similiar in size and location as Athens.  But I'm also not sure they have better fan support than us.  They're 14-3 and just hosted #23 ranked UCF on a Saturday with school in session, and had barely 5,000 there.

Also...Neither Parkersburg nor Marrietta are within 30 miles of Athens.  I'm telling you, this is no small point and is something to think about when getting frustrated about our place in the world.  No small city, small conference program has as much fan support as we do.
anorris
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Posted: 1/21/2011 12:20 AM
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I'll throw SIU in.

Slightly smaller than Hattiesburg, considerably more support, but still less than us.

Based on NCAA averages for last season:

Ohio - 5,289
Marshall - 5,489
Southern Miss - 3,305
Southern Illinois - 4,780
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