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Topic: Steve Hays Needs to Offically Shut Up
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JSF
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Posted: 2/24/2011 8:21 AM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
As I said previously, head for high ground...  I'm sick of this garbage.  Time to make some enemies.  

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=152271574828874

What frustrates me the most with athletic spending bashers are the bubbles they seem to live in.  I know more kids who care about athletics than kids who do not.  Yes, that is part of the people I choose to associate myself with...  At least I recognize the multiple parties to the issue.  Many of the athletics bashers don't realize people like us exist, or don't want to admit it.  They'd do well to leave Ellis Hall or wherever the heck they are held up in...  They act like statements such as "I've never been to one football game in my four years here" give them credibility.  Hah, please.  These aren't average OU students, I question if they could even tell me what a Court Street Shuffle is... 


I've never done a Court Street Shuffle.  Neither has Alex.  Are we not OU students?

And I don't see any athletics bashing there.  It's more of an anti-corporate stance.  Plus, I was invited by one of the student body's biggest sports fans.

Neither have I, yet, but you know what one is...  And I did say "average" OU student. You're above average.  
Seriously though, the kids in the Student Senate aren't your typical OU student, nor are the kids parading these campaigns around hailing Hays as a savior from Mubarak.  This might draw 500.  The fests draw 5000.  That is your average Ohio, like it or not. 


Gotcha, though I still feel you're misrepresenting most of rally attendees.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 2/24/2011 11:14 AM
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Doc Bobcat wrote:expand_more
It's agreed that this guy is not an effective voice for the position that ICA is overvalued and that the administration is part of the problem. Those are not smart comments to make IMO unless you have more to back up the assertion that McDavis is personally driving the institutional (over)commitments you're trying to protest.

Just remember, though, that there are something like 2,000 OU faculty members out there, and Hays is almost certainly not speaking for all of the ones who might at least partially agree with him.

Also, some of you are matching this one guy's strident overreaching and making comments to the effect of saying that any area of academic concentration that isn't directly related to working in the contemporary business world is irrelevant and wasteful. You're one step away from calling for the abolishing of the history department! Some things have intrinsic value, and I would suggest that having an expert on Latin and ancient Greek around is no less worthwhile than having someone who's plugging away at developing technologies for ionospheric heaters and restless leg syndrome medications. 

But yeah, he should zip it or refine his message.


Amen there at the end, Putnam, on both the paragraph and the final sentence.  I will give the board credit; I'm hearing less and less "faculty are using athletics as a scapegoat to avoid looking in the mirror and making cuts of their own."  If you look at the buyouts being offered, changes to employee healthcare, etc., that's an increasingly less tenable position to take if it ever held water and to Bobcat Attack's credit, talk like that has died down.  We're not talking fewer ferraris in faculty garages but larger class sizes, less experienced educators, and the stuff that hits directly to the academic side of the university experience.  Everyone is hurting.



If SB 5 passes then regular elementary and high school teachers are in for a rude awakening.  This bill may save the state some cash, but teachers just lost their ability to strike.  Sure...they still can....but boreds of education can now legally hire PERMANENT replacements to take their place.  Duh....a no-strike clause for sure.


Perhaps and I emphasize perhaps some teachers could use a rude awakening.  In recent months a McKinsey study - results were included in a TIME mag article on education - included some distressing findings.  I'm traveling now  and the article is back in North Canton and my memory might be a bit off, but a central finding went something like this: Well fewer than half of elementary and high school teachers finished in the top one-third of their college classes.  A too large percentage finished in the lowest third. 
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 2/24/2011 11:18 AM
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I'll have to agree with Putnam and Dragon on this.  Prof. Hays was WAY out of line with these inappropriate remarks, but this in no way discredits the discipline that he teaches.  OU is not DeVry and there is a solid place for the liberal arts and humanities, which includes study of ancient languages and religions. 
D.A.
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Posted: 2/24/2011 1:15 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I'll have to agree with Putnam and Dragon on this.  Prof. Hays was WAY out of line with these inappropriate remarks, but this in no way discredits the discipline that he teaches.  OU is not DeVry and there is a solid place for the liberal arts and humanities, which includes study of ancient languages and religions. 


Good point in as much as at Ohio, disciplines such as Steve's are but the garnish on a dinner plate, and not the main course.  Ohio is not Oberlin, Denison, Kenyon...or a seminary.

Ohio has evolved over the course of 200 years to be what it is: a solid public univeristy which is a reasonably good value versus its peer group, with it's strongest and most renowned programs being Communications, Engineering, Business and Education, and with some other notable successes in Liberal Arts, COM and the like.  It is not the hub of the universe for world religions majors or PhD's.

Steve Hays did more to damage his own credibility with his remarks in that forum than any of us could have done to discredit him through any OpEd piece.  Sure, there may be a fringe that will lap up all that he has to serve, but he has now exiled himself from any mainstream support, and Rich Vedder will do well to separate himself from Steve ASAP lest he suffer a similar fate.

To visit his school of hyperbole, he has now "jumped the shark" to become "that guy".  He is now the guy who puts the talcum in the letter to give an anthrax scare, he is Dylan Klebold, Ted Kaczynski, Timothey MacVeigh.  He would be better served focusing on teaching.

Yeah, I get it, he's scared for his job and the long term prosperity of those who study his "liberal art."  But until the State of Ohio finds a way to tax the industry of "World Religions" to help them cover their budget shortfall, I don't see his job security changing significantly in the near term.
roar-room
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Posted: 2/24/2011 2:09 PM
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D.A. wrote:expand_more
But until the State of Ohio finds a way to tax the industry of "World Religions" to help them cover their budget shortfall, I don't see his job security changing significantly in the near term.



Ooohhh....I liked that.
The Optimist
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Posted: 2/24/2011 3:57 PM
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roar-room wrote:expand_more
But until the State of Ohio finds a way to tax the industry of "World Religions" to help them cover their budget shortfall, I don't see his job security changing significantly in the near term.



Ooohhh....I liked that.

I hear those World Religions grads are real big donors...  

D.A.
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Posted: 2/24/2011 4:27 PM
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Because I am a sticker for details, and because several posters here like to cite the concept of "shared governance" as a rationale for faculty being permitted a voice on ICA funding (fron Ohio.edu):

"Be it resolved that the future of shared governance should be reconfirmed and addressed alongside Vision Ohio by pursuing the following:

1.  The members of Ohio University Board of Trustees will work with the Faculty Senate Executive Committee toward adding a member of the Faculty Senate as a non-voting member of the board, to be chosen by the Faculty Senate at the first meeting in September. 

2.  Ordinarily and most often, assignments for study and/or action recommendations made to committees, commissions, councils, task forces, etc. will utilize existing standing committees appointed by the Committee on Committees. In the rare event that an ad hoc body must be appointed, it will have a lifetime of no longer than one year and include a substantial number of faculty appointed by the Faculty Senate. If the assignment relates to academic or curriculum matters, the ad hoc body must consist of a majority of faculty members appointed by the Faculty Senate and be chaired by a faculty member appointed by the Faculty Senate."

Only majority faculty representations permitted on committees in academic and curriculum matters, and one non-voting member of the Board, and athletics is conspicuously absent.  Strike three. (couldn't resist the athletics euphamism)
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Posted: 2/24/2011 5:17 PM
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D.A.,

Unfortunately, it appears that your attention to detail isn't as strong as you'd like to believe.  The provisions you cited simply don't support your conclusion.  The second provision you cited deals with ad hoc committees formed on a temporary basis, and says that such committees must include a majority of faculty members if they are involved with academic or curricular issues.  Neither provision says anything one way or the other about faculty input on athletics-related issues, let alone whether tax-paying faculty members should be allowed to voice their concerns regarding athletics expenditures by a public institution. 

More significantly, you completely missed the fact that in addition to the two formal faculty athletics representatives that directly work with the athletics department, Ohio University also has a standing Intercollegiate Athletics Committee, for which 7 of the 14 voting (i.e., non-ex officio) members must - by rule - come from the faculty (http://www.ohio.edu/facultysenate/standingcomm/ICA-Committee-page.cfm).  This committee is expressly authorized to consider "all facets of intercollegiate athletics at Ohio University."  So your suggestion that Ohio University's shared governance model does not provide the faculty with the ability or right to offer their input on athletics-related issues is completely off-base, and once again evidences a serious misunderstanding of how public universities operate.

As for the study of world religion, considering that religious conflict is one of the most serious issues affecting the world today, some posters' suggestion that such courses have little value strikes me as perplexing at best, and ignorant at worst.  Indeed, even those that view institutions of higher education simply as trade schools should be able to appreciate that possessing some understanding of comparative religion can be quite valuable for anyone entering an industry with ties to the Middle East or southeast Asia. 
Last Edited: 2/24/2011 7:16:06 PM by Flomo-genized
That one crazy fan
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Posted: 2/24/2011 9:26 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
As I said previously, head for high ground...  I'm sick of this garbage.  Time to make some enemies.  

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=152271574828874

What frustrates me the most with athletic spending bashers are the bubbles they seem to live in.  I know more kids who care about athletics than kids who do not.  Yes, that is part of the people I choose to associate myself with...  At least I recognize the multiple parties to the issue.  Many of the athletics bashers don't realize people like us exist, or don't want to admit it.  They'd do well to leave Ellis Hall or wherever the heck they are held up in...  They act like statements such as "I've never been to one football game in my four years here" give them credibility.  Hah, please.  These aren't average OU students, I question if they could even tell me what a Court Street Shuffle is... 


Optimist, this is not just an anti-athletics event.  I know, because I'm one of the people helping to organize the thing.  Athletics is just one of a long list of issues.  The university is not just doing early retirement, other teachers have been flat out laid off.  My german professor is in the midst of looking for a new job next year.  Other departments are in the midst of huge cuts.  Our state is going to go through spending cuts towards education which will hurt us more.  The main issue with athletics is the large general fee that goes to it.  The other issue is that the tickets are free which is eating up money from the university to keep these events funded so they can run smoothly.  What other university charges free admission to students?  The issue isn't eliminating athletics, but it is cutting from that before we cut from education.  Tuition has gone up more than 1,000 dollars since I started here a few years ago (it was around 17,000 in 2008.  Now it is at 18,000).  along with the hike in tuition they are laying off faculty and staff and cutting other programs while they increase enrollment on an already overfilled campus.  Baker center itself is seeing its hours being cut and staff positions cut.  More money will be needed to fund the multipurpose building once that is built.  A-news reported today that they will be redoing all the New South dorms which will cost even more money.  Now factor in the expected 20% of Kasich's spending cuts towards education, what situation do you think that will put us in?  Obama's 100 billion dollar cut to federal aid for higher education will not help students who need that money for college.  Athletics needs to start paying for itself is our only request because the value of our degree is in jeopardy.  This is all about the overall attack on education from all sides.

Believe me Optimist, you know me to be passionate for athletics, but when the question of our degree comes up I'm going to have to go with the degree.  I was against cutting from athletics until this issue of us losing 30 million dollars came up.  OU lost a lot of money on the trip to NOLA and it will lose a lot again when it buys tickets for the MAC tournament so students can go for free.  Let's face it, athletics needs to start charging tickets for students or we need to cut something from athletics again because education should not suffer before athletics, or else this institution has truly lost sight of what really is important.
Last Edited: 2/24/2011 9:26:42 PM by That one crazy fan
That one crazy fan
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Posted: 2/24/2011 10:02 PM
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Ringo wrote:expand_more
As I said previously, head for high ground...  I'm sick of this garbage.  Time to make some enemies.  

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=152271574828874

What frustrates me the most with athletic spending bashers are the bubbles they seem to live in.  I know more kids who care about athletics than kids who do not.  Yes, that is part of the people I choose to associate myself with...  At least I recognize the multiple parties to the issue.  Many of the athletics bashers don't realize people like us exist, or don't want to admit it.  They'd do well to leave Ellis Hall or wherever the heck they are held up in...  They act like statements such as "I've never been to one football game in my four years here" give them credibility.  Hah, please.  These aren't average OU students, I question if they could even tell me what a Court Street Shuffle is... 


Optimist, this is not just an anti-athletics event.  I know, because I'm one of the people helping to organize the thing.  Athletics is just one of a long list of issues.  The university is not just doing early retirement, other teachers have been flat out laid off.  My german professor is in the midst of looking for a new job next year.  Other departments are in the midst of huge cuts.  Our state is going to go through spending cuts towards education which will hurt us more.  The main issue with athletics is the large general fee that goes to it.  The other issue is that the tickets are free which is eating up money from the university to keep these events funded so they can run smoothly.  What other university charges free admission to students?  The issue isn't eliminating athletics, but it is cutting from that before we cut from education.  Tuition has gone up more than 1,000 dollars since I started here a few years ago (it was around 17,000 in 2008.  Now it is at 18,000).  along with the hike in tuition they are laying off faculty and staff and cutting other programs while they increase enrollment on an already overfilled campus.  Baker center itself is seeing its hours being cut and staff positions cut.  More money will be needed to fund the multipurpose building once that is built.  A-news reported today that they will be redoing all the New South dorms which will cost even more money.  Now factor in the expected 20% of Kasich's spending cuts towards education, what situation do you think that will put us in?  Obama's 100 billion dollar cut to federal aid for higher education will not help students who need that money for college.  Athletics needs to start paying for itself is our only request because the value of our degree is in jeopardy.  This is all about the overall attack on education from all sides.

Believe me Optimist, you know me to be passionate for athletics, but when the question of our degree comes up I'm going to have to go with the degree.  I was against cutting from athletics until this issue of us losing 30 million dollars came up.  OU lost a lot of money on the trip to NOLA and it will lose a lot again when it buys tickets for the MAC tournament so students can go for free.  Let's face it, athletics needs to start charging tickets for students or we need to cut something from athletics again because education should not suffer before athletics, or else this institution has truly lost sight of what really is important.


In closing, I will say again to not just write this off as completely anti-athletic.  The issue of athletics at said event is just one of 30 discussions that day.  The real issue is the ramifications of getting rid of faculty, raising tuition, and raising enrollment.  The state cutting funding to all education thus making it more difficult for many schools (my area is already failing due to lack of funds) and Obama cutting from federal aid while republicans want him to cut even more from it.  State Bill 5 can be added in as teachers unions are needed.  That is what this event is about.  It is to speak out against all of that.  So no more people heading to that page to bash it, please.
Last Edited: 2/25/2011 8:22:30 AM by Ryan Carey
anorris
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Posted: 2/24/2011 10:11 PM
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Ringo wrote:expand_more
What other university charges free admission to students?

Every last one in our conference, for starters.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 2/24/2011 10:19 PM
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Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
D.A.,


As for the study of world religion, considering that religious conflict is one of the most serious issues affecting the world today, some posters' suggestion that such courses have little value strikes me as perplexing at best, and ignorant at worst.  Indeed, even those that view institutions of higher education simply as trade schools should be able to appreciate that possessing some understanding of comparative religion can be quite valuable for anyone entering an industry with ties to the Middle East or southeast Asia. 


This might be the most insightful post on this board ever.  Guys, we need to move beyond our ethnocentricism.  I paid $3.45 a gallon for gas today because of unrest in the middle east.  Religion and what all its proponents bring to the table will shape this world in a way we will be hard pressed to understand.  An exposure to the true diversity of the world, not just the black and white Cutler version, is one of the lessons that all OU students will need to experience.  1990, 1980 and 1970 are eras long since committed to history books.
JSF
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Posted: 2/24/2011 10:29 PM
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I would argue you paid $3.45 a gallon because of racketeering with unrest in the Middle East as a convenient excuse.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 2/25/2011 12:24 AM
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We're still able to purchase fuel for the Siberian Express.  Plenty of it.  
anorris
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Posted: 2/25/2011 12:44 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
We're still able to purchase fuel for the Siberian Express.  Plenty of it.  
Man, I was sure that thing ran on coal! (Clean coal, of course.)
Last Edited: 2/25/2011 12:44:23 AM by anorris
Alan Swank
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Posted: 2/25/2011 7:40 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
We're still able to purchase fuel for the Siberian Express.  Plenty of it.  


Come on Jeff, take a break.  We've been doing a very good job of policing ourselves without mom and dad threatening us.  
Ryan Carey
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Posted: 2/25/2011 8:27 AM
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I'm pretty sure it's a diesel.
 
Doc Bobcat
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Posted: 2/25/2011 9:25 AM
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Ryan Carey wrote:expand_more
I'm pretty sure it's a diesel.
 


I heard it runs on Vodka.
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Posted: 2/25/2011 9:38 AM
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...no, that's what the message board runs on.  
D.A.
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Posted: 2/25/2011 1:04 PM
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I think you made my point Flomo, and I don't disagree that there is value to faculty working in support of ICA, as the ICA Committee does.  I also believe there is a place for Steve's department, but as I stated, and as exhibited in your case, its value at Ohio largely runs in support of other departments, not as the main course.

Definition: Shared Governance is the process by which the University Community respectfully shares responsibility for reaching collective decisions on matters of policy and procedure.

First line of the ICA Committe page: General policies concerning athletics at Ohio University are determined by the President and Board of Trustees in consultation with the Director of Athletics. (by definition, no shared governance here)

Second line of the ICA Committee page: The Intercollegiate Athletics Committee assists the President, Provost, Director of Athletics, and the NCAA Faculty Athletics Representatives in the interpretation and implementation of athletic policies.

And I think Steve left "respectfully" at the station in Siberia with his comments this week.
Last Edited: 2/25/2011 1:13:04 PM by D.A.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 2/25/2011 2:47 PM
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I agree that the analogy used was ill-fitting and inappropriate.  I also agree that the dialogue should be respectful, as has been the overwhelming majority of faculty criticism regarding athletics expenditures.  Yet some here nevertheless take issue with such criticism simply because the faculty has the audacity to question the value of athletics.  That latter attitude -- the suggestion that the faculty have no right or interest in voicing their concerns -- is all that I'm responding to here.

I do disagree that a Classics and World Religion department serves only a secondary value at a major public university.  While some students undoubtedly attend Ohio University simply for professional training in business, engineering, or education, others come for the intellectual experience that a classic liberal arts education can provide.  Just because you (apparently) come from the former school of thought does not mean that a department primarily geared towards the latter group of students is less important than those housed in the College of Business or Education.
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Posted: 2/26/2011 1:56 PM
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Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I would argue you paid $3.45 a gallon because of racketeering with unrest in the Middle East as a convenient excuse.

Most uninformed, stupid post of year, I would argue.
JSF
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Posted: 2/26/2011 2:23 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
I would argue you paid $3.45 a gallon because of racketeering with unrest in the Middle East as a convenient excuse.

Most uninformed, stupid post of year, I would argue.


Uninformed?  No.  Stupid?  Possibly.
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Posted: 2/26/2011 2:33 PM
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Mike Johnson wrote:expand_more
Perhaps and I emphasize perhaps some teachers could use a rude awakening.  In recent months a McKinsey study - results were included in a TIME mag article on education - included some distressing findings.  I'm traveling now  and the article is back in North Canton and my memory might be a bit off, but a central finding went something like this: Well fewer than half of elementary and high school teachers finished in the top one-third of their college classes.  A too large percentage finished in the lowest third. 


But which is the cart and which is the horse.  Teaching is a thankless career that, despite numbers flying around, does not pay well and often requires an advanced degree to gain an increase in salary.  Not denying the current system rewards bad teachers - so stay away from Siberia -- but most college students today with a head on their shoulders are probably not, unfortunately, going to consider teaching as a career.  So you get "stuck" with the bottom-third.
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Posted: 2/26/2011 2:35 PM
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Bobcat Dragon wrote:expand_more
I would argue you paid $3.45 a gallon because of racketeering with unrest in the Middle East as a convenient excuse.

Most uninformed, stupid post of year, I would argue.


Uninformed?  No.  Stupid?  Possibly...but probably not


Got your back on this one.  Too many years in tourism marketing witnessing the old "summer trend."
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