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cc-cat
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Posted: 3/29/2011 8:15 AM
Socratres - he was so good in that Bill and Ted movie.
colobobcat66
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Posted: 3/29/2011 9:20 AM
mcbin wrote:expand_more
DAMNNNN!!!!  he said what I have been saying.....only 2k short on the CONVO.    I like his way of saying it better than my Steve Fisher analogy.......Swing for the fences and Fill it up.


If anyone has access to the clip of Steve Fisher when he went to SDSU and what he did to build up that fanbase (sell tickets, speak, etc) that would be something pretty neat for the group to see. I'm not sure if it was something CBS had, or where it was. Very impressive to me. I think that is what Ohio needs to do. It's the attitude all Ohio fans (& Ath dept employees) need to embrace.

Not saying parts and pieces haven't been done already - but to get the funds, and the full houses, it's going to take a big effort. By the team, the coach, the AD & staff, us fans, our checkbooks, the Athens community, Central Ohio folk, and more. The gist of it was that Fisher devoted his whole being, getting in front and speaking to any group who would listen, about his dreams to build a winner (and fan support). He even said he had pockets full of tickets and for a while was a one man ticket retailer, to anyone that was interested.

I say this because folks can bicker over what sport should get more/less funds, but in all cases, a GOOD argument can be made that each and every Ohio sport is underfunded and could use a healthy infusion of $$$ to become/remain more competitive. I would be more in favor of growing the base, instead of cutting off the nose to spite the face. I doubt any sport is going to get a infusion from another sport, especially since each is arguably underfunded in the scheme of things also.
It's not like Ohio is a Big Ten school, where small amounts really amount to a drop in the bucket. At Ohio it matters. In the case of hoops, Ohio's budget is about 50K away from a MVC budget, and about 350K from being an A10 budget. That's do-able. That can be done with season tickets. That can be done with the OBC. That can be Ohio fans snapping up 30 or so courtside seats next year at $1000 apiece instead of us saying it's a bad idea. Gotta write that check. Gotta buy those tickets, even if you're going to mail them to the BBBS because you live far away. Gotta drag your friends down to Athens and get them (or RE-get) them involved in backing the Cats. Every little bit helps, and when you know the school isn't in a position to help funding at the moment, us fans have to do whatever we're able to further the progress. We're a good fan base, no reason why we can't be a great one.

ben

I agree with your position Ben.  I promise to buy 2 season tickets next year (and probably won't be able to use them, just like my FB season tickets).
anorris
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Posted: 3/29/2011 9:21 AM
I agree with a lot of what's been said here, and it isn't an easy question to answer or discussion to have.  I love the football program, I never missed a home game in four years, and saw 10 of 13 games live this season.  I just believe in the present spending spree at the FBS level, it is much more economical to try to raise hoops, and has better monetary return on investment, exposure notwithstanding.  I don't even advocate taking from football, but we need to look at basketball before we become huge also-rans.

It's hard to get wins in the tournament when you're seeded 14 and 15, and that's not a good trend.

College football is broken beyond belief, and needs, more than anything, an NCAA-sanctioned post-season setup, with travel costs covered and a real payout to the schools, in real money.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 10:58 AM
cc cat wrote:expand_more
Socratres - he was so good in that Bill and Ted movie.


I thought Socrates played center for Muncie Central back in the 1930s.  
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/29/2011 12:29 PM
This article addresses a lot of the issues that have been raised in this thread:

http://www.ohio.com/sports/kent_state/118824634.html
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Posted: 3/29/2011 12:35 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Socratres - he was so good in that Bill and Ted movie.


I thought Socrates played center for Muncie Central back in the 1930s.  


COuld not make the cut. Relagated to the Championship Debate team


BEN!!!!!! You have the vision. Nice job. Watch out you may end up outta the computer biz and knee deep in logistics and running a college marketing dept.
Last Edited: 3/29/2011 12:37:03 PM by bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/29/2011 12:39 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
This article addresses a lot of the issues that have been raised in this thread:

http://www.ohio.com/sports/kent_state/118824634.html


Thanks Jeff.  This passage in particular stood out to me:

Quote:expand_more
Basketball used to be king at Kent State and in terms of success, it still is. But the basketball-first mentality changed a year ago with the arrival of director of athletics Joel Nielsen. When football coach Doug Martin resigned in November and Nielsen hired former Ohio State assistant Darrell Hazell in December, Hazell received a huge raise from Martin's salary and more money for his assistants.

While raising the level of the football program is sorely needed and that means spending, Kent State's budget doesn't allow it to do the same for basketball.

''We made quite a commitment last year,'' Nielsen said of Ford's raise in 2010. ''The position we're in right now, we wouldn't be able to make another significant commitment. There's things we can do to improve the program, whether that's assistance or facilities, but as far as pure salary, we're at a number right now we're comfortable with.

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Posted: 3/29/2011 1:20 PM
Did anyone read the article from the Ravenna paper listed on the news clips? I was intrigued by the buy out clause which apparently Bradley doesn't want to pay. Does Groce have such a buy out clause? Kent is talking about a lot of money if Bradley pays off. $1.2 million would buy quite a few home games for a few years.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 1:37 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
This article addresses a lot of the issues that have been raised in this thread:

http://www.ohio.com/sports/kent_state/118824634.html


Thanks Jeff.  This passage in particular stood out to me:

Basketball used to be king at Kent State and in terms of success, it still is. But the basketball-first mentality changed a year ago with the arrival of director of athletics Joel Nielsen. When football coach Doug Martin resigned in November and Nielsen hired former Ohio State assistant Darrell Hazell in December, Hazell received a huge raise from Martin's salary and more money for his assistants.

While raising the level of the football program is sorely needed and that means spending, Kent State's budget doesn't allow it to do the same for basketball.

''We made quite a commitment last year,'' Nielsen said of Ford's raise in 2010. ''The position we're in right now, we wouldn't be able to make another significant commitment. There's things we can do to improve the program, whether that's assistance or facilities, but as far as pure salary, we're at a number right now we're comfortable with.



So I guess Kent St. didn't get the memo that they were supposed to start killing basketball in 2006. Oops.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/29/2011 1:37 PM
akroncat wrote:expand_more
Did anyone read the article from the Ravenna paper listed on the news clips? I was intrigued by the buy out clause which apparently Bradley doesn't want to pay. Does Groce have such a buy out clause? Kent is talking about a lot of money if Bradley pays off. $1.2 million would buy quite a few home games for a few years.


IIRC Coach Groce had the buy out decreased or removed to the surprise of many.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 1:45 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
So I guess Kent St. didn't get the memo that they were supposed to start killing basketball in 2006. Oops.


I guess not, but they now have clearly received the message about prioritizing football over basketball.
Last Edited: 3/29/2011 1:45:15 PM by Flomo-genized
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 3/29/2011 2:06 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
So I guess Kent St. didn't get the memo that they were supposed to start killing basketball in 2006. Oops.


I guess not, but they now have clearly received the message about prioritizing football over basketball.


Looks like you're going to have to re-do your numbers.

Also missing the memo since 2006:
- Toledo spending $30M to upgrade Savage Arena
- CMU spending $20M to upgrade McGuirk Arena
- BG spending $40M to build the Stroh Center
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/29/2011 2:13 PM

Not at all.  The numbers I have been providing are annual budgets for the programs themselves, not related facilities expenses.  Indeed, it would be difficult to determine what percentage of the facility upgrades you are identifying are intended to benefit mens basketball, as arena upgrades generally serve a variety of purposes beyond just boosting men's hoops (i.e., helping women's hoops and volleyball, as well as providing better venues for general university events such as commencement, concerts, etc.).  Even if you want to try to add arena upgrades into the calculus, though, that's only valid if you also include all the football facility spending that has occurred over the last decade as well (including the $61.1 million spent on InfoCision Stadium for starters).

Ted, you keep ignoring these questions, but do you honestly believe that finances have nothing at all to do with the decline in MAC hoops since the 2005 season?  Do you really think that the spending gap between the Horizon, CAA, and MAC has no impact on our ability to compete with those conferences, and that our lack of comparative success is entirely the fault of bad coaching hires?  Do you really deny that MAC spending on football has increased significantly more in recent years with respect to both real dollars and on a percentage basis than increased spending for MAC hoops?

Last Edited: 3/29/2011 2:21:58 PM by Flomo-genized
giacomo
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Posted: 3/29/2011 3:16 PM
We've talked about this forever: what's it going to take to get more attendance, more NCAA bids, more TV time, etc. etc. Many have made valid points, as in the state not allowing a hoops coach not at OSU to make 700k a year. I believe that. But look, if the powers that be really wanted to get where this board wants to go in athletics, we would already be doing it. I think they want to spend only so much money and try to get the best for the money. Look at Marshall. They wanted to elevate their program and actually did something about it  Same with Gonzaga. But we've been doing the same thing for so long you have to conclude that's the way they like it.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 3:56 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Ted, you keep ignoring these questions, but do you honestly believe that finances have nothing at all to do with the decline in MAC hoops since the 2005 season?  Do you really think that the spending gap between the Horizon, CAA, and MAC has no impact on our ability to compete with those conferences, and that our lack of comparative success is entirely the fault of bad coaching hires?  Do you really deny that MAC spending on football has increased significantly more in recent years with respect to both real dollars and on a percentage basis than increased spending for MAC hoops?


You never answer my questions. Do you honestly believe Ohio spent $3M more on football in 2009 than it did in 2006? That fact seems central to your argument that starting then the MAC's spending on football has increased significantly. If that's your basis of argument, then I am placing severe doubt on that assertion.

But fair enough, I'll go ahead and try to appropriately answer your questions.

Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
Do you really think that the spending gap between the Horizon, CAA, and MAC has no impact on our ability to compete with those conferences, and that our lack of comparative success is entirely the fault of bad coaching hires? 


I will say there are a few CAA programs whom I believe have ALWAYS invested more (ODU and VCU come to mind) than the MAC in hoops. The CAA also benefits from Jim Larranaga choosing to stay at GMU at below-market (turned down Providence dollars) rates. But for the most part, it still HAS come down to coaching hires. I'm just note sure what it is you think the CAA and Colonial have. IMO, the Horizon has Butler and the CAA has VCU/ODU/GMU.

Horizon
Butler has earned all the at-large bids and shine in the tourney. But I believe that is the result of good coaching decisions that started in the late 90's. It wasn't money that attracted those coaches and money hasn't been able to retain those coaches (jury still out on Stevens). Other than Butler, I'm not sure what the Horizon has or is investing in that's any different than the MAC. And I further believe that the investment in Butler has come after its performance instead of before.

CAA
In 2007, the CAA became a two-bid league for the first time since 1986. They were back to being a one-bid league from 2008-2010. This year, they got 3 bids thanks to the expanded field. I think a lot of the success is due to VCU hiring Anthony Grant. He was a top assistant at a BCS school (Florida). Very similar to the type of coaching hire the MAC routinely makes. But he was a huge success, recruiting 2 NBA players and most of the players on this year's Final 4 squad. But VCU wasn't able to afford to keep Grant and the jury is still out on how good a coach Shaka Smart is and if they'll be able to retain him.

Taking a Sagarin view of things:
2004 - CAA - 13th, HL - 14th, MAC - 15th
2005 - MAC - 11th, HL - 15th, CAA - 17th
2006 - CAA - 19th, MAC - 13th, HL - 15th
2007 - HL- 12th, MAC - 14th, CAA - 15th
2008 - HL - 11th, MAC - 12th, CAA - 14th 
2009 - HL - 11th, CAA - 14th, MAC - 18th
2010 - HL - 12th, CAA - 14th, MAC - 15th
2011 - CAA - 10th, HL - 11th, MAC - 17th

I think we all agree the MAC hasn't been good the last 3 years. Even still, it's not like the MAC isn't in the same area code with these conferences. In 2010, only 1 point separated the MAC and CAA and 1.8 points seperated the MAC and HL. I also think the HL gets a bit of a bump because an exceptional team's performance is averaged over 10 teams and not 12. I'm not willing to call this a trend yet. Because over that period, I think the MAC has suffered from terrible coaching decisions. Ronnie Thompson and Gene Cross decimated two of the MAC's Top 100/150 programs. They are still in the process of being fixed. During the same period, Patton/Zeigler/Ramsey were allowed to go from bad to worse.

So instead of calling for more investment, I want an adequate return on the MAC's current investment. There's no reason a MAC team should consistently be 200+ in the Sagarin. And they should NEVER be around 300. Even in this year of no real elite teams in the MAC, if BG/CMU/NIU/EMU/Toledo had the Sagarin ranking of the 200th best team in the country, the MAC would move up to #15. Well within its range.

Since some AD's either don't care or are inept, a strong Commissioner should step in. He should call the EMU AD and tell him Ramsey needs to go. If you think it's money, then he needs to start fining people. If you finish above 200+ RPI, then you are fined $100K plus $1K for every spot you are above 200. Fines get thrown into revenues that the conference splits. Maybe then Ramsey wouldn't be going into Year 7.

So in summary:
- I still need it proven to me that there has been a greater percent increase in football than basketball since 2006
- not sure there is a trend yet
- not sure what it is you think that the entirety of the CAA and HL has that the MAC does not
- think we should get return for current investment and then think about further investment
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Posted: 3/29/2011 4:08 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Ted, you keep ignoring these questions, but do you honestly believe that finances have nothing at all to do with the decline in MAC hoops since the 2005 season?  Do you really think that the spending gap between the Horizon, CAA, and MAC has no impact on our ability to compete with those conferences, and that our lack of comparative success is entirely the fault of bad coaching hires?  Do you really deny that MAC spending on football has increased significantly more in recent years with respect to both real dollars and on a percentage basis than increased spending for MAC hoops?


You never answer my questions. Do you honestly believe Ohio spent $3M more on football in 2009 than it did in 2006? That fact seems central to your argument that starting then the MAC's spending on football has increased significantly. If that's your basis of argument, then I am placing severe doubt on that assertion.

But fair enough, I'll go ahead and try to appropriately answer your questions..

Do you really think that the spending gap between the Horizon, CAA, and MAC has no impact on our ability to compete with those conferences, and that our lack of comparative success is entirely the fault of bad coaching hires? 


I will say there are a few CAA programs whom I believe have ALWAYS invested more (ODU and VCU come to mind) than the MAC in hoops. The CAA also benefits from Jim Larranaga choosing to stay at GMU at below-market (turned down Providence dollars) rates. But for the most part, it still HAS come down to coaching hires. I'm just note sure what it is you think the CAA and Colonial have. IMO, the Horizon has Butler and the CAA has VCU/ODU/GMU.

Horizon
Butler has earned all the at-large bids and shine in the tourney. But I believe that is the result of good coaching decisions that started in the late 90's. It wasn't money that attracted those coaches and money hasn't been able to retain those coaches (jury still out on Stevens). Other than Butler, I'm not sure what the Horizon has or is investing in that's any different than the MAC. And I further believe that the investment in Butler has come after its performance instead of before.

CAA
In 2007, the CAA became a two-bid league for the first time since 1986. They were back to being a one-bid league from 2008-2010. This year, they got 3 bids thanks to the expanded field. I think a lot of the success is due to VCU hiring Anthony Grant. He was a top assistant at a BCS school (Florida). Very similar to the type of coaching hire the MAC routinely makes. But he was a huge success, recruiting 2 NBA players and most of the players on this year's Final 4 squad. But VCU wasn't able to afford to keep Grant and the jury is still out on how good a coach Shaka Smart is and if they'll be able to retain him.

Taking a Sagarin view of things:
2004 - CAA - 13th, HL - 14th, MAC - 15th
2005 - MAC - 11th, HL - 15th, CAA - 17th
2006 - CAA - 19th, MAC - 13th, HL - 15th
2007 - HL- 12th, MAC - 14th, CAA - 15th
2008 - HL - 11th, MAC - 12th, CAA - 14th 
2009 - HL - 11th, CAA - 14th, MAC - 18th
2010 - HL - 12th, CAA - 14th, MAC - 15th
2011 - CAA - 10th, HL - 11th, MAC - 17th

I think we all agree the MAC hasn't been good the last 3 years. Even still, it's not like Ohio isn't in the same area code with these conferences. In 2010, only 1 point separated the MAC and CAA and 1.8 points seperated the MAC and HL. I also think the HL gets a bit of a bump because an exceptional team's performance is averaged over 10 teams and not 12. I'm not willing to call this a trend yet. Because over that period, I think the MAC has suffered from terrible coaching decisions. Ronnie Thompson and Gene Cross decimated two of the MAC's Top 100/150 programs. They are still in the process of being fixed. During the same period, Patton/Zeigler/Ramsey were allowed to go from bad to worse.

So instead of calling for more investment, I want an adequate return on the MAC's current investment. There's no reason a MAC team should consistently be 200+ in the Sagarin. And they should NEVER be around 300. Even in this year of no real elite teams in the MAC, if BG/CMU/NIU/EMU/Toledo had the Sagarin ranking of the 200th best team in the country, the MAC would move up to #15. Well within its range.

Since some AD's either don't care or are inept, a strong Commissioner should step in. He should call the EMU AD and tell him Ramsey needs to go. If you think it's money, then he needs to start fining people. If you finish above 200+ RPI, then you are fined $100K plus $1K for every spot you are above 200. Fines get thrown into revenues that the conference splits. Maybe then Ramsey wouldn't be going into Year 7.

So in summary:
- I still need it proven to me that there has been a greater percent increase in football than basketball since 2006
- not sure there is a trend yet
- not sure what it is you think that the entirety of the CAA and HL has that the MAC does not
- think we should get return for current investment and then think about further investment



Simply outstanding.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 4:57 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
You never answer my questions. Do you honestly believe Ohio spent $3M more on football in 2009 than it did in 2006? That fact seems central to your argument that starting then the MAC's spending on football has increased significantly. If that's your basis of argument, then I am placing severe doubt on that assertion.


As I've said several times already, if that is what we reported to the U.S. Department of Education, then yes that is what I honestly believe. Indeed, as far as I'm aware the U.S. Dept. of Ed. is the only publicly available data out there.  So until someone provides some data to the contrary, I'm going to go with our official reports, and not your unsubstantiated intuition to the contrary.  Afterall, as I and others have pointed out, there are a number of areas that increased funding could support that would not be readily apparent to an outside observer. 

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I will say there are a few CAA programs whom I believe have ALWAYS invested more (ODU and VCU come to mind) than the MAC in hoops. The CAA also benefits from Jim Larranaga choosing to stay at GMU at below-market (turned down Providence dollars) rates. But for the most part, it still HAS come down to coaching hires. I'm just note sure what it is you think the CAA and Colonial have. IMO, the Horizon has Butler and the CAA has VCU/ODU/GMU.


While the cream of the crop of course gets the most notice in March, the Horizon and the CAA are both significantly better than the MAC right now from top to bottom.  You yourself provided the overall conference rankings from Sagarin below, which pretty clearly reveal that we're falling behind our peers.  Another measure is comparing individual team rankings.  For example, according to Ken Pomeroy, this year the CAA had 4 top 100 teams, and 2 more teams ranked from 101-150.  Meanwhile, the Horizon had only 2 top 100 teams, but 5 more teams ranked from 101-150.  Collectively, the two conferences did not have any teams ranked lower than 260.  In contrast, the MAC only had 1 top 100 team, and only 3 other teams ranked in the top 101-150, with 4 teams ranked below 260.

That is ultimately a big difference, not only affecting the number of bids that each conference stands to earn to the NCAA tournament, but also the seeding that its teams will receive as well.  And as we all know, the higher your seed, the easier it is to advance deep into the tournament.  So I would disagree that the Horizon is only Butler, and that the CAA is just a three team league.  In addition to the quality at the top, the depth of both conferences is what sets them apart from the MAC in recent years. 

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
Horizon
Butler has earned all the at-large bids and shine in the tourney. But I believe that is the result of good coaching decisions that started in the late 90's. It wasn't money that attracted those coaches and money hasn't been able to retain those coaches (jury still out on Stevens). Other than Butler, I'm not sure what the Horizon has or is investing in that's any different than the MAC. And I further believe that the investment in Butler has come after its performance instead of before.


What makes you say that money didn't attract those coaches?  Where is the data?  While the Horizon doesn't have enough money to keep much bigger programs from poaching their coaches, that doesn't mean that many Horizon programs aren't more attractive destinations than the majority of the MAC for up and coming basketball coaches. 

Indeed, the teams in the Horizon currently on average provide 20% more funding to their basketball programs than the MAC.  And it's not just Butler.  For instance, according to the U.S. Dept. of Education data, the top six basketball budgets in the Horizon were Butler ($2.822 million), Detroit ($2.676 million), Wisc.-Milwaukee ($2.055 million), Wright State ($1.892 million), Cleveland State ($1.766 million), and Loyola-Chicago ($1.752 million).   In contrast, the top six basketball budgets in the MAC in 2009 were Ohio ($2.326 million), Toledo ($1.931 million), Akron ($1.817 million), Kent State ($1.626 million), Miami ($1.528 million), and WMU ($1.441 million).  That is a significant difference. 

This disparity is all the more apparent in the CAA, where the programs actually spend 23% more on average than the MAC.  In the Colonial, the top six basketball budgets are ODU ($2.354 million), VCU ($2.354 million), with Delaware and Drexel pretty much tied for third (at roughly $2.221 million each), followed by GMU ($2.126 million) and Hofstra ($2.028 million).  In fact, with JMU ranking seventh in the CAA at $1.985 million, only a single MAC school's basketball budget would even place in the top seven of the CAA in basketball spending.   

No one would dispute that factors other than funding alone have contributed to the MAC's demise.  But you are ignoring the 500 lb. gorilla in the room if you insist that 20-23% funding disparaties ultimately have little to no effect on the comparative success of the MAC versus the Horizon and CAA.  In fact, I'd argue that funding is directly related to a number of the other factors that have contributed to our slide, including your favorite punching bag (poor coaching hires).  Part of the reason that the Horizon and CAA have hired better coaches recently is that they spend more on basketball, pure and simple.

And while I hope you are correct that this is just a three year blip on the radar, I don't share your optimism considering that these funding disparaties are continuing to grow.

Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
So instead of calling for more investment, I want an adequate return on the MAC's current investment. There's no reason a MAC team should consistently be 200+ in the Sagarin. And they should NEVER be around 300. 


While I agree that no MAC team should ever be in the 300s, there is a perfectly good reason for MAC teams to consistently be in the 200s: money. 

4 MAC schools currently fall outside the top 200 in terms of their basketball budget: Buffalo (#218), EMU (#222), CMU (#223), and BGSU (#248).  And that does not include NIU who comes in at #199.  In fact, Ohio (#112), Toledo (#138) and Akron (#145) are the only 3 MAC schools in the top 150. 

http://www.bbstate.com/info/schools-hoopsbudget

So I'd argue that we are in fact getting the expected return from our dwindling investment in men's basketball.  It is completely unrealistic to expect all 12 MAC programs to consistently be in the top 200, when 1/3rd of the conference doesn't rank in the top 200 in basketball expenditures.  The MAC simply must spend more money across the board on men's hoops in order to improve its performance on the basketball court.

But as long as our conference members continue to prioritize football by giving it 85% of the new investments made in the two primary revenue generating sports, we'll continue to see the CAA and Horizon increase their basketball spending advantages by 100%+ over a 5 year period, with the predictable result that they will continue to lap us on the court as well. 
Last Edited: 3/29/2011 6:08:50 PM by Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/29/2011 6:06 PM
One tidbit that contributes only tangentially to the ongoing Flomo-Thompson debate: I heard one commentator over the last few weeks during tourney time who listed all sorts of MAC freshmen and sophomores that he thought were outstanding.  I'm sorry but I really can't remember specifically the players at each school that he mentioned, but he ticked off a list of seven or eight player he thought were up and coming stars. Based on his list this talking head concluded that though the MAC has been down for the last few years that the league was poised for a big comeback in 2011-12.  Don't know whether it's true or not, but I thought it was an interesting observation and one relevant to the discussion of the direction of the basketball v. football at MAC schools.  
Last Edited: 3/29/2011 6:07:46 PM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/29/2011 8:19 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
You never answer my questions. Do you honestly believe Ohio spent $3M more on football in 2009 than it did in 2006? That fact seems central to your argument that starting then the MAC's spending on football has increased significantly. If that's your basis of argument, then I am placing severe doubt on that assertion.


As I've said several times already, if that is what we reported to the U.S. Department of Education, then yes that is what I honestly believe. Indeed, as far as I'm aware the U.S. Dept. of Ed. is the only publicly available data out there.  So until someone provides some data to the contrary, I'm going to go with our official reports, and not your unsubstantiated intuition to the contrary.  Afterall, as I and others have pointed out, there are a number of areas that increased funding could support that would not be readily apparent to an outside observer.  

 


I'm still not sold. Can you provide the football, basketball and total athletic department expense by year for 2005-2009? Or a link. All I can find is data for the 2009-10 year. The other years are in spreadsheets that I can't make sense of.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 3/29/2011 8:41 PM
Here's part of what you guys are debating.  From 2009 to 2011, FB budgeted amount has gone from 2,461,000 down to 2,451,000 while basketball has gone from 1,037,000 to 994,000.  That does not include scholarships.

http://www.ohio.edu/finance/bpa/upload/fy09-sectiong.pdf

Just change the 09 to 10 or 11 to see those years.  Nothing is there prior to 09.
D.A.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 8:43 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
This article addresses a lot of the issues that have been raised in this thread:

http://www.ohio.com/sports/kent_state/118824634.html


Thanks Jeff.  This passage in particular stood out to me:

Basketball used to be king at Kent State and in terms of success, it still is. But the basketball-first mentality changed a year ago with the arrival of director of athletics Joel Nielsen. When football coach Doug Martin resigned in November and Nielsen hired former Ohio State assistant Darrell Hazell in December, Hazell received a huge raise from Martin's salary and more money for his assistants.

While raising the level of the football program is sorely needed and that means spending, Kent State's budget doesn't allow it to do the same for basketball.

''We made quite a commitment last year,'' Nielsen said of Ford's raise in 2010. ''The position we're in right now, we wouldn't be able to make another significant commitment. There's things we can do to improve the program, whether that's assistance or facilities, but as far as pure salary, we're at a number right now we're comfortable with.



Reads to me that in 2010, the significantly invested in BOTH hoops and FB.
Flomo-genized
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Posted: 3/29/2011 9:04 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
You never answer my questions. Do you honestly believe Ohio spent $3M more on football in 2009 than it did in 2006? That fact seems central to your argument that starting then the MAC's spending on football has increased significantly. If that's your basis of argument, then I am placing severe doubt on that assertion.


As I've said several times already, if that is what we reported to the U.S. Department of Education, then yes that is what I honestly believe. Indeed, as far as I'm aware the U.S. Dept. of Ed. is the only publicly available data out there.  So until someone provides some data to the contrary, I'm going to go with our official reports, and not your unsubstantiated intuition to the contrary.  Afterall, as I and others have pointed out, there are a number of areas that increased funding could support that would not be readily apparent to an outside observer.  

 


I'm still not sold. Can you provide the football, basketball and total athletic department expense by year for 2005-2009? Or a link. All I can find is data for the 2009-10 year. The other years are in spreadsheets that I can't make sense of.


I agree that the interface is pretty confusing.  It took me a while to figure out, but I believe the best way to get data for multiple years is to go to "Download Selected Data," select the MAC, and then select "Expenses" for the years that you wish to see.

In short, though, here is what Ohio reported from 2005-2009:

2005 - Football ($4,265,821), Men's Basketball ($1,156,611), Total ($16,704,043)
2006 - Football ($4,445,964), Men's Basketball ($1,252,041), Total ($18,671,109)
2007 - Football ($4,986,723), Men's Basketball ($1,432,379), Total ($20,448,176)
2008 - Football ($5,869,228), Men's Basketball ($1,787,577), Total ($21,893,603)
2009 - Football ($7,385,482), Men's Basketball ($2,327,125), Total ($22,575,238)
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/29/2011 9:55 PM
Great stuff here Flomo and Ted.  I am reading and re reading posts to absorb all this while being fascinated by what Iam finding in your links. I hope the folks that "never read the message boards" are paying attention while filling their yellow pads with ideas and thoughts related to how to move this thing forward using thoughts from folks who really care.

I am intrigued by many facets of what is here but am going to withhold commenting without digesting this thoroughly. Just wanted to chime in and say I really appreciate the work you guys put in here and encouage you to continure to finish thoughts and ideas. 

 NOt to digress but I  did want to acknowledge OCF s post


OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I heard one commentator over the last few weeks during tourney time who listed all sorts of MAC fresNOhmen and sophomores that he thought were outstanding.  I'm sorry but I really can't remember specifically the players at each school that he mentioned, but he ticked off a list of seven or eight player he thought were up and coming stars. Based on his list this talking head concluded that though the MAC has been down for the last few years that the league was poised for a big comeback in 2011-12.   


Sounds like that guy has been looking at it the same way I see it.
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Posted: 3/29/2011 11:07 PM
Flomo-genized wrote:expand_more
2005 - Football ($4,265,821), Men's Basketball ($1,156,611), Total ($16,704,043)
2006 - Football ($4,445,964), Men's Basketball ($1,252,041), Total ($18,671,109)
2007 - Football ($4,986,723), Men's Basketball ($1,432,379), Total ($20,448,176)
2008 - Football ($5,869,228), Men's Basketball ($1,787,577), Total ($21,893,603)
2009 - Football ($7,385,482), Men's Basketball ($2,327,125), Total ($22,575,238)


From what I know, and has been widely reported, during the last few years, the athletic department ceased reporting fake numbers that included a structural deficit--that is, a deficit that was run every year with the Ohio Foundation "covering the costs" post mortem. In other words, the department was "spending" more than $16.7 million in 2005, even though that wasn't its budget.

I think you could google Ohio University Athletics structural deficit and find some links.

Regardless, these numbers show that football spending has increased less than 75 percent since 2005 while basketball expenses have increased more than 100 percent.

So therefore, using these DOE stats, which you state are the most accurate, you could truthfully say that increases in basketball expenses have vastly outpaced football expenses over the past several years. Correct?

I also think you have to look at the cost of tuition, books, fees, health insurance for athletes. Those costs, by far, outpace the costs of salaries for coaches and are the main culprit. A 5% hike in tutition and fees would easily pay for an offensive coordinator when multiplied by 85. It sounds massive, the salary that Solich makes, but when you add up the tuition, books, insurance, etc., his offensive line makes more than he does.
Robert Fox
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Posted: 3/30/2011 8:45 AM
To take Mike's post one step further in detail:
Year Football Growth Basketball Growth
2005 $4,265,821   $1,156,611  
2006 $4,445,964 4.2% $1,252,041 8.3%
2007 $4,986,723 12.2% $1,432,379 14.4%
2008 $5,869,228 17.7% $1,787,577 24.8%
2009 $7,385,482 25.8% $2,327,125 30.2%

Growth is shown per sport, per year.
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