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Topic: New Coach Search
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Lash
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Posted: 3/27/2012 12:31 PM
It seems like Boals is the obvious choice, but it appears to be too much like Groce. With the lineup next season, assuming no big names leave, he could be one-and-done.

Any young coach, who sticks around after the year they should have would be dumb or may have too much pride (which would be a great thing, but then the fans will to go through this uncertain period again) --- if he underachieves, well, then OHIO is stuck with a guy who couldn't win with one of the best teams ever assembled in Athens.

I would like a coach with experience that isn't interested in moving up, down and around.

However, this person, at the same time, will have to pride in this program so that it doesn't go back to pre-Groce time.

This is kind of based on the Frank Solich plan, hire a guy that is too tired to leave. Or at least can coach the team we have now and won't immediately be interviewed for a new/bigger/better job.

Dino Gaudio - not the record you would want as a head coach, but has been the head coach of Army, Lehigh and Wake Forest (taking them to the tourney in two of his three years). Most importantly, he is OHIO graduate.

Bruce Weber - he will probably take the year off or go back to Southern Illinois (where he was wildly successful), but I think all OHIO fans would love to see his boring style of defense implemented at our school. Plus, with his name recognition, he should be pulling in great recruits. However, this just doesn't seem realistic.

Bobby Lutz - like Weber, could be in the running for other jobs. Was very successful at Charlotte, taking the 49ers to the tourney five times in first seven years. The 49ers then got full of themselves and couldn't make the tourney after they moved to the A-10. If OHIO could get him, I would think that would be a great hire - but he could be holding out for better.

Al Skinner - why not, the guy hasn't coached in a couple years? Maybe give him a call?

Are there any other Solichs out there??????

Besides TOS
Piney
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Posted: 3/27/2012 12:43 PM
Lash wrote:expand_more
It seems like Boals is the obvious choice, but it appears to be too much like Groce. With the lineup next season, assuming no big names leave, he could be one-and-done.

Any young coach, who sticks around after the year they should have would be dumb or may have too much pride (which would be a great thing, but then the fans will to go through this uncertain period again) --- if he underachieves, well, then OHIO is stuck with a guy who couldn't win with one of the best teams ever assembled in Athens.

I would like a coach with experience that isn't interested in moving up, down and around.

However, this person, at the same time, will have to pride in this program so that it doesn't go back to pre-Groce time.

This is kind of based on the Frank Solich plan, hire a guy that is too tired to leave. Or at least can coach the team we have now and won't immediately be interviewed for a new/bigger/better job.



I was thinking about this.. during a reply about Boals but wanted to wait til it was official... but since you bring it up.

Now that we have had the experience with Groce... an up and coming coach that can take us to certain heights, but then 'potentially' jump ship once he takes us to those heights. Do we want another one. I tend to say YES!!! But others might not think of it that way.

Now, one reason Boals is my #1 pick is the chance he is not only that up and coming coach, but a Stevens/Shaka type that will stay longer than what the media thinks.

But overall, are we willing to be like Kent State was this past decade, Having to hire a new coach every 3-4 years because of their success? Or an 'older' coach that might stick around longer?
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 3/27/2012 12:46 PM
George Mason thought they had the guy who wouldn't leave in Jim Larranaga. He left. Even at his age.

They all leave. Just go hire another winner.
Lash
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Posted: 3/27/2012 12:49 PM
Piney wrote:expand_more
It seems like Boals is the obvious choice, but it appears to be too much like Groce. With the lineup next season, assuming no big names leave, he could be one-and-done.

Any young coach, who sticks around after the year they should have would be dumb or may have too much pride (which would be a great thing, but then the fans will to go through this uncertain period again) --- if he underachieves, well, then OHIO is stuck with a guy who couldn't win with one of the best teams ever assembled in Athens.

I would like a coach with experience that isn't interested in moving up, down and around.

However, this person, at the same time, will have to pride in this program so that it doesn't go back to pre-Groce time.

This is kind of based on the Frank Solich plan, hire a guy that is too tired to leave. Or at least can coach the team we have now and won't immediately be interviewed for a new/bigger/better job.



I was thinking about this.. during a reply about Boals but wanted to wait til it was official... but since you bring it up.

Now that we have had the experience with Groce... an up and coming coach that can take us to certain heights, but then 'potentially' jump ship once he takes us to those heights. Do we want another one. I tend to say YES!!! But others might not think of it that way.

Now, one reason Boals is my #1 pick is the chance he is not only that up and coming coach, but a Stevens/Shaka type that will stay longer than what the media thinks.

But overall, are we willing to be like Kent State was this past decade, Having to hire a new coach every 3-4 years because of their success? Or an 'older' coach that might stick around longer?


I actually agree. If OHIO is truly getting a good up-and-coming coach and Boals appears to be just that.

Once he leaves, what are the odds Ohio State has groomed another coach with good recruiting skills and happens to be an OHIO graduate???

I am actually torn ... I guess, I would like OHIO to look into each idea.

1a) Great young coach, recruiter and can coach
1b) Solid experienced coach, who can coach and bring recruits in through his old pipeline or name

Either way, I will try my best to be supportive.
Lash
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Posted: 3/27/2012 12:52 PM
Brian Smith wrote:expand_more
George Mason thought they had the guy who wouldn't leave in Jim Larranaga. He left. Even at his age.

They all leave. Just go hire another winner.


You have to admit. That was surprising.

You also have to admit, that was a unique situation - that was not actually talking about. Meaning, Larranaga never experienced big-time college basketball.

Solich, obviously, got to experience that.

I am thinking, along the lines of the older coach, that doesn't have that in the back of his mind.
OU didn't know
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:18 PM
Lash wrote:expand_more
Are there any other Solichs out there??????


Based on his Ohio roots, Bob Knight is the name that keeps coming to mind.  However, the man is 71, and I don't think I'd want any part of him at Ohio any way.  
CATman
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:19 PM
Realistically, the only way you keep a Shaka / Stevens type around is money. 
 
Everyone can argue loyalty, etc. (i.e. if he's an Ohio Grad) but it is really far fetched to hold on to mid major coaches UNLESS the school finds ways to generate enough cash. 
 
The reason Smart and Stevens are in a positon to say no is because they're already very comfortable financially (in addition to having a stable coaching position and great support from the university / fans). When you're talking 1 million+ dollars already, it's much easier to say no to a 25-35% pay increase. 
 
For guys like Groce, it is increasingly difficult to say no to a 600-700% bump. I mean, think about that. If someone came to you today and said "we'll pay you 7 times what you're making now AND you'll have four to five times the resources at your disposal"...how do you say no? 
 
I think everyone needs to remember that coaching is very volatile profession. It's not a typical career where you can expect to see linear growth and a steady rise up the food chain. Many times guys like Groce flame out and never see the big pay day. Or they make the big jump, collect the check and ultimately don't cut it. Or even worse, they turn down the big payday only to never get that chance again. It's a profession where you're more likely to fail in the long run than you are to succeed. Many times failures in coaching are due to factors completely out of your control. 
 
It's a really difficult decision but ultimately you kind of just have to chase the money when you're in Groce's position. I hate to say that, given that I would LOVE to see him return but the average coaching lifespan is rather short. The majority of guys wallow in mediocrity for long stretches, never to be offered the keys to a top tier job. 
 
We could probably argue endlessly as to where Illinois specifically slots in the pantheon of coaching coaching jobs but what I think no one will argue is that it does land in the top 10% of ALL college basketball coaching positions. In a volatile profession, you just never turn down those types of jobs. Not without something unheard of, like a 10 year contract, etc. from Ohio or something of a substantial pay bump. Or maybe even both. In the end, sometimes that's not even enough. 
 
It is pretty bittersweet but all you can do is support the next guy. Getting down or upset about it won't help the program move on and given what Groce has done, it would be a shame to waste an opportunity to continue building upon the strong foundation he's laid.
Last Edited: 3/27/2012 1:22:38 PM by CATman
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:29 PM
Lash wrote:expand_more
It seems like Boals is the obvious choice, but it appears to be too much like Groce. With the lineup next season, assuming no big names leave, he could be one-and-done.


I completely agree with the thought that we are destined for success next season and the coach may very well be a one and done (ala Stan Heath at Kent 2002).  But I would argue one of the few ways we avoid the one and done is to hire a proud alumnus.

I know Frank has worked out great for Football as a winding down candidate, but I hate that idea here.
Piney
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:40 PM
CATman wrote:expand_more
Realistically, the only way you keep a Shaka / Stevens type around is money. 
 
Everyone can argue loyalty, etc. (i.e. if he's an Ohio Grad) but it is really far fetched to hold on to mid major coaches UNLESS the school finds ways to generate enough cash. 
 
The reason Smart and Stevens are in a positon to say no is because they're already very comfortable financially (in addition to having a stable coaching position and great support from the university / fans). When you're talking 1 million+ dollars already, it's much easier to say no to a 25-35% pay increase. 
 
For guys like Groce, it is increasingly difficult to say no to a 600-700% bump. I mean, think about that. If someone came to you today and said "we'll pay you 7 times what you're making now AND you'll have four to five times the resources at your disposal"...how do you say no? 
 
I think everyone needs to remember that coaching is very volatile profession. It's not a typical career where you can expect to see linear growth and a steady rise up the food chain. Many times guys like Groce flame out and never see the big pay day. Or they make the big jump, collect the check and ultimately don't cut it. Or even worse, they turn down the big payday only to never get that chance again. It's a profession where you're more likely to fail in the long run than you are to succeed. Many times failures in coaching are due to factors completely out of your control. 
 
It's a really difficult decision but ultimately you kind of just have to chase the money when you're in Groce's position. I hate to say that, given that I would LOVE to see him return but the average coaching lifespan is rather short. The majority of guys wallow in mediocrity for long stretches, never to be offered the keys to a top tier job. 
 
We could probably argue endlessly as to where Illinois specifically slots in the pantheon of coaching coaching jobs but what I think no one will argue is that it does land in the top 10% of ALL college basketball coaching positions. In a volatile profession, you just never turn down those types of jobs. Not without something unheard of, like a 10 year contract, etc. from Ohio or something of a substantial pay bump. Or maybe even both. In the end, sometimes that's not even enough. 
 
It is pretty bittersweet but all you can do is support the next guy. Getting down or upset about it won't help the program move on and given what Groce has done, it would be a shame to waste an opportunity to continue building upon the strong foundation he's laid.


This is where that new MAC payouts from the NCAA basketball money might come in handy. I would hope Schaus will have a handle of how much additional income will come from that (ie understand the formula enough to be able to budget that money towards the coach). And adjust the base salary accordingly, and maybe put X amount aside to really kick up the amount to keep our next coach when they succeed.  While it might not be a million dollars right away, it could push us past 500k. Then you put tons of bonuses in it, and put the bonuses in line with how much the university would get from the NCAA. Instead of a $25k bonus for making the sweet sixteen, make it $100+k, maybe make being an at-large berth team a good bump too.

Of course I am throwing out figures without knowing, but hopefully you get the point. But let's say in 4-5 years when our next coach starts getting offers, we can come in and say "since you did this and this in the NCAA tournament we can pay you $800k base salary with these specific bonuses for doing well in the NCAA tourney that can push you past $1 million" 
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:43 PM
I'm assuming Ohio won't contact Boals until after the Final Four?

Schaus will want to move quickly. The faster you can get a coach talking to the players and recruits, the better. You don't want to drag it out like Illinois did. It became a PR disaster.
Last Edited: 3/27/2012 1:44:09 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
JSF
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:45 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I really look for him to go to the well again and pull Holtmann back in if he is smart


Might be smart for Chris, too. Even though it hasn't reflected in the record, I think he's making Gardner-Webb better, but the ceiling on that program is low. He got some experience that will help down the road. Don't stay at GW so long it hurts your career.
Lash
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Posted: 3/27/2012 1:49 PM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
It seems like Boals is the obvious choice, but it appears to be too much like Groce. With the lineup next season, assuming no big names leave, he could be one-and-done.


I completely agree with the thought that we are destined for success next season and the coach may very well be a one and done (ala Stan Heath at Kent 2002).  But I would argue one of the few ways we avoid the one and done is to hire a proud alumnus.

I know Frank has worked out great for Football as a winding down candidate, but I hate that idea here.


Obviously, the football program was a different situation than where the basketball program is right now. Quite the opposite.

To credit Frank, he not only turned it around on his own - but is still here.

To get another one like that, is very unlikely.

Boals seems to be the no-brainer, that is if he will have us. I would assume he would, because the team is set up for success and he played in Athens. My only hope is that his OHIO pride forces him to set up the program for the next man in (instead of being a one-and-done) ... at that time, it might be unlikely that another Groce or Boals (assuming he is successful) is around.

Just a healthy debate.
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Posted: 3/27/2012 4:48 PM
Just another reason to dump the MAC.  No TV revenue, crowds of 1500 and on and on...who really wants to stay in this conference?  You are judged by the company you keep and this certainly is not the A10, CAA or MVC! 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:02 PM
What about the A-10 for basketball in 2012-13, when Temps leaves?
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:06 PM
groce stays .... too much turmoil in illinois !!
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:09 PM
Ocf...I would take that.  A10 for BB and MAC for FB.  We are the one MAC school with the fan base, facility and enthusiasm to move to bigger and better BB pastures.  Besides, what would the MAC do?  They have no you know whats...
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:17 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Ocf...I would take that.  A10 for BB and MAC for FB.  We are the one MAC school with the fan base, facility and enthusiasm to move to bigger and better BB pastures.  Besides, what would the MAC do?  They have no you know whats...


Agreed . . .  I mentioned this because I do think it's possible, if our AD and prez think big and do the appropriate politicking and fund raising.  No inside information, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like this isn't already being discussed and that Groce is aware of those discussions.  
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Posted: 3/27/2012 10:19 PM
Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Just another reason to dump the MAC. No TV revenue, crowds of 1500 and on and on...who really wants to stay in this conference? You are judged by the company you keep and this certainly is not the A10, CAA or MVC!
.

I usually am not a fan of just up and leaving the MAC but I am now rethinking this. Ohio is lucky enough to have an arena that should be able to generate good revenue. We are also lucky enough to have a great brand in that we carry the states name and that can not be underestimated. The universities that tend to gain the most state wide following regardless of the size of the home town, are those that carry the state's name and are not directional.

That being said I just don't know where Ohio could land it's program that would generate the TV dollars needed to pay those large salaries. If a major conference were forward thinking enough to take a chance and invest in the Ohio market knowing that 20 years out Ohio University would be a solid #2 in the 7th biggest state in the country. I guess what I am saying is Michigan is more valuable than Michigan State but Michigan State is pretty darn good.

Just my thoughts.
Last Edited: 3/27/2012 10:24:35 PM by Gallia Cat
Lash
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Posted: 3/29/2012 12:54 AM
bump ... the original, but not official coach search thread
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